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[Reorte]

LiarasShield wrote...

Guess dieing for freedom and holding on to ones believes is terrible thing then submitting to a being you never seen before to play god with the reapers to force everyone into half machines and possiabily destroying who they are as people


Killing another race wether sentient machines or the quarians is acceptable to alot of you


I'm sorry it isn't for me

If you can't see that it isn't as bad as getting them killed anyway, along with a hell of a lot more people then you're simply insane.

Holding on to your beliefs when it starts getting people murdered is ridiculous.

Swallowing your pride and putting your principles behind you when it's the only way that trillions can live in freedom is admirable. You aren't handing them over to the Reapers so how on earth do you think you're submitting? You're refusing to look at the option simply because your enemy mentioned it.

Modifié par Reorte, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:31 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Shepard blew up a solar system to avoid the obvious to the in game characters consequence of the reject ending killing 300K+ Batarians in the process.  Perhaps you mean reject is the only ending upholding YOUR Shepard's views and morals.  In which case, cool.  Although your views and morals seem a little defeatist and paralyzation in the face of tough dilemmas isn't really a good idea.

Of course the same Shepard would be dead already because he'd have let the clock run down in Arrival rather than activate the Project.

Lets see
300,000 batarians does not equal 1.5 billion geth (every geth)
It wasn't an united effort to destroy the reapers, the circumstances were completely different, stop using analogies that don't match up to what were talking about.

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

Again your incapable of using the right analogy, the circumstances were completely different, tell me if you understand or if you need me to explain how completely different the circumstances were.

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Is submission not preferable to extinction? Again, I can see another person who i can guess their answer pretty easily.

refusing to act, knowing you cannot win and WILL 100% be turned into a Reaper is an act of submission AND extinction.

How is using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers an act of submission? Crucible is not Reaper design.

[M Hedonist]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

[BD Manchild]

Galbrant wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Pure genius.

[Clayless]

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

[LiarasShield]

Your insane to think what you're doing is anything better then dieing for freedom and allowing people to retain their free will

Modifié par LiarasShield, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

You're saying the Stargazer at the end of Reject was an asari or something? thats just pure bull**** and grasping at straws. Its just an alien form. Besides the legs are horse-like, rather than human/asari. Theres no evidence of survivors to the next cycle other than Liara's "beacons", just like Protheans.
About Catalyst telling the truth: Its an AI driven by the purpose of maintaining balance in the galaxy. The Crucible changed it's coding, allowing it to reach new solutions. It has no control over the use of the Crucible, it merely acts as a trigger mechanism to it and as a guide on how to use it. If it was lying, it couldve just said "shoot the pipe and you destroy the universe"(who would want to do THAT), instead he said it destroys the Reapers and synthetics. Sounds logical enough to me. The Geth are unfortunate casualties of war, just as there has allways been and allways will be. A man may love a dog like his child, but would never put it's life ahead of his own. Those that do are nutcases.

The same way Destroyers gasp as straws saying Geth/Edi can be rebuild, I never said I believed that the reason that others might have survived into the next cycle was because of the startgazer, javik was able to do it, maybe we can get a few people to survive till the next, you seem to be thinking it in a worse case scenario. Its a rogue AI, and unless you metagame you don't know anything of what you just wrote, So I'm not doing anything a starkid tells me, The dog anology is sick because Geth are = to humans, thats like me saying your a monkey that has intellegence, you willingly kill the geth, their not casaulties of war, don't try to justify your genocide.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

Again your incapable of using the right analogy, the circumstances were completely different, tell me if you understand or if you need me to explain how completely different the circumstances were.

The circumstances are "kill a lot or the Reapers win." If the problem is not numbers but the fact it's an entire species would you say the same thing if it was only 100 geth? Or only EDI, who is a single member species?

[M Hedonist]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

The difference is that I'm using headcanon as an example of what could happen, you're using headcanon as a definite for what will happen.
The point is that there is hope in the Reject ending. It's not as grim and definite as people like to picture it.

[IscrewTali]

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

The ONLY thing about the Stargazer that reminds us about Asari is the head. But do you honestly think Bioware would create a completely new race just for the Stargazer scene? Starkid says "the cycle continues" then Liara VI says "we fought and LOST". I wouldnt call survival a loss, do you? Unless they didnt survive...

[ghost9191]

hmm so all the choices are wrong in their own way, thought we already came to that conclusion. but yet another thread to justify refusal. aren't they our choices?

[LiarasShield]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

Again your incapable of using the right analogy, the circumstances were completely different, tell me if you understand or if you need me to explain how completely different the circumstances were.

The circumstances are "kill a lot or the Reapers win." If the problem is not numbers but the fact it's an entire species would you say the same thing if it was only 100 geth? Or only EDI, who is a single member species?

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

[Reorte]

LiarasShield wrote...

Your insane to think what you're doing is anything better then dieing for freedom and allowing people to retain their free will

Corpses don't have free will and it doesn't look like people turned into Reaper goo do either. You are making a choice that has all the same negatives as destroy, a whole load of its own, and none of the positives. No freedom is lost to anyone other than Shepard and the geth for heaven's sake!

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Is submission not preferable to extinction? Again, I can see another person who i can guess their answer pretty easily.

refusing to act, knowing you cannot win and WILL 100% be turned into a Reaper is an act of submission AND extinction.

How is using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers an act of submission? Crucible is not Reaper design.

Bullcrap Shepard has done the impossible before, and its an act of submission because control you contradict everything you do in ME3, Synthesis you complete what the Reapers wanted, and Destroy you commit Genocide something Shepard would never do, if your doing something you would never do, your submitting to the catalyst and its options.

[Reorte]

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

[humes spork]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

There's a thread full of people WHARGARBL'ing about the Catalyst's irrationality and using it as a justification for irrational behavior on their part. This surprises you?

[N-Seven]

LiarasShield wrote...

Guess dieing for freedom and holding on to ones believes is terrible thing

Oh it's fine and 'noble'.  As long as you're the only one doing the dying. 

Having the rest of the galaxy die for your beliefs?  Not so great.

[v TricKy v]

ghost9191 wrote...

hmm so all the choices are wrong in their own way, thought we already came to that conclusion. but yet another thread to justify refusal. aren't they our choices?

tell that the people who go "you chose refuse? wow you suck man!"

[elitehunter34]

Ok guys, I think everyone's missing the point of me and The Angry One here.  

Here are the facts.

1) The Crucible is a device that is designed to stop the Reapers

2) The Catalyst created the Reapers

3) The Catalyst needs Shepard to activate the Crucible


There is absolutely no evidence that the Crucible will do what the Catalyst tells you it will do.  You are only taking his word for it and it is the word of the creator of your enemy.

Look, I know, people are saying,  "the Catalyst has no reason to help you, but he is anyways so that must mean he's telling the truth."  Guys, do you not see the irony in that statement?  Someone who is trying to helping you would make you put your guard down.  It's called deception.  Would you go into the house of someone that threatens to kill you or the person who offers you free cookies?  

Now you could then say, "But why didn't the Catalyst just leave you on the floor bleeding then." It's because the Catalyst needs you to activate the Crucible.  He says that so himself.  So he feeds you a bunch of lies of what does what, and then you activate the Crucible and then it makes everyone indoctrinated so that they all stop fighting, and now the Reapers are free to turn the races of the galaxy into even more Reapers.  Or maybe it freezes all the organic races in place while the Reapers harvest them.  What it does is not the point.

"But wait,"  you say, "That never happens."  You're right, it doesn't happen.  But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, and that is exactly the point.  Everything I just said is something that Shepard could infer by himself.  It's something that requires no meta-gaming at all.  

The only reason everyone here is defending the Catalyst and how he must be telling the truth is because they know what happened.  They know that the Crucible does exactly what the Catalyst says it did.  But Shepard didn't, all he knows is those three facts I laid out.  Shepard doesn't know if the Catalyst has to tell the truth.  Shepard doesn't know if the Catalyst can alter what the Crucible does.  So yes Shepard could take the leap of faith and use the Crucible, and it saves the galaxy.  Or he could use the Crucible and it leads to a fate worse than destruction, such as the organic races becoming a Reaper.  These are conclusions that Shepard could come to, so what would Shepard do, trust his enemy and hope it works, or die fighting?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

Again your incapable of using the right analogy, the circumstances were completely different, tell me if you understand or if you need me to explain how completely different the circumstances were.

The circumstances are "kill a lot or the Reapers win." If the problem is not numbers but the fact it's an entire species would you say the same thing if it was only 100 geth? Or only EDI, who is a single member species?

EDI is not a single member species but im not going to argue that. Now your just acting obtuse, sacrificing 100 and 1.5 billions is completely different, once again, give me an analogy that makes sense.

[ghost9191]

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

The difference is that I'm using headcanon as an example of what could happen, you're using headcanon as a definite for what will happen.
The point is that there is hope in the Reject ending. It's not as grim and definite as people like to picture it.

considering you lost probably more then half your fleet in the frontal attack on the reapers, most of hammer was wiped out and you are watching you fleet get destroyed above you, odds are there will be no way to win a conventional victory. i choose destroy in the moment, yeah it cost the geth but at least i don't destroy the whole galaxy to do it

[M Hedonist]

IscrewTali wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

The ONLY thing about the Stargazer that reminds us about Asari is the head. But do you honestly think Bioware would create a completely new race just for the Stargazer scene? Starkid says "the cycle continues" then Liara VI says "we fought and LOST". I wouldnt call survival a loss, do you? Unless they didnt survive...

Did Javik consider his cycle to be a victory?
Besides, you're metagaming again.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

Again your incapable of using the right analogy, the circumstances were completely different, tell me if you understand or if you need me to explain how completely different the circumstances were.

The circumstances are "kill a lot or the Reapers win." If the problem is not numbers but the fact it's an entire species would you say the same thing if it was only 100 geth? Or only EDI, who is a single member species?

EDI is not a single member species but im not going to argue that. Now your just acting obtuse, sacrificing 100 and 1.5 billions is completely different, once again, give me an analogy that makes sense.

OK, so which is it? Where on the line between 100 and 1.5 billion would you do it?