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[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

Great, let Shepard sacrifice his humanity then to save everyone else.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

ghost9191 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

The difference is that I'm using headcanon as an example of what could happen, you're using headcanon as a definite for what will happen.
The point is that there is hope in the Reject ending. It's not as grim and definite as people like to picture it.

considering you lost probably more then half your fleet in the frontal attack on the reapers, most of hammer was wiped out and you are watching you fleet get destroyed above you, odds are there will be no way to win a conventional victory. i choose destroy in the moment, yeah it cost the geth but at least i don't destroy the whole galaxy to do it

Hitler would have said the same thing, we commited war crimes but we won. I rather face extinction than to submit.

[Baronesa]

It is interesting how, per the OP and title... the topic should be about reasons WITHOUT metagamming... and most (not all, there are some interesting reasons without emtagaming) of those cited so far rely on "lol everyone dies" which is an unknown for Shepard at that moment.

And consider what Nyoka posted... THAT defiance is what made Shepard who she is... When Shepard refuses it is not to give up, it is to fight till the end HOPING to win.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

Great, let Shepard sacrifice his humanity then to save everyone else.

Except the Geth, and is everyones humanity, 
"Our cycle destroyed the Reapers, but we commited genocide in order to do it!" Yup

[LiarasShield]

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Your insane to think what you're doing is anything better then dieing for freedom and allowing people to retain their free will

Corpses don't have free will and it doesn't look like people turned into Reaper goo do either. You are making a choice that has all the same negatives as destroy, a whole load of its own, and none of the positives. No freedom is lost to anyone other than Shepard and the geth for heaven's sake!

They have free will until they do and and they have the right ot choose what they want to decide I'm not going to make these terrible choices I'm not going to stop genocide with genocide I'm not going to turn everyone into half machines and alter people to the point that they may no longer be who they are and work peacefully with the reapers when they have been killing us the entire time


I'm not going to play god and control the reapers because the reapers may break shepards hold or shepard him or herself may eventually turn rogue and that power is way beyond us it was never ment to be ours and it is wrong at least it is to me

Once again allowing the next cycle to find a better solution then sacrificng our spirit as people is the right way to for me

So Be It

[M Hedonist]

ghost9191 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

The difference is that I'm using headcanon as an example of what could happen, you're using headcanon as a definite for what will happen.
The point is that there is hope in the Reject ending. It's not as grim and definite as people like to picture it.

considering you lost probably more then half your fleet in the frontal attack on the reapers, most of hammer was wiped out and you are watching you fleet get destroyed above you, odds are there will be no way to win a conventional victory. i choose destroy in the moment, yeah it cost the geth but at least i don't destroy the whole galaxy to do it

My point has little to do with conventional victory.
Loss against the Reaper =/= end of all life as we know it

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

You're saying the Stargazer at the end of Reject was an asari or something? thats just pure bull**** and grasping at straws. Its just an alien form. Besides the legs are horse-like, rather than human/asari. Theres no evidence of survivors to the next cycle other than Liara's "beacons", just like Protheans.
About Catalyst telling the truth: Its an AI driven by the purpose of maintaining balance in the galaxy. The Crucible changed it's coding, allowing it to reach new solutions. It has no control over the use of the Crucible, it merely acts as a trigger mechanism to it and as a guide on how to use it. If it was lying, it couldve just said "shoot the pipe and you destroy the universe"(who would want to do THAT), instead he said it destroys the Reapers and synthetics. Sounds logical enough to me. The Geth are unfortunate casualties of war, just as there has allways been and allways will be. A man may love a dog like his child, but would never put it's life ahead of his own. Those that do are nutcases.

The same way Destroyers gasp as straws saying Geth/Edi can be rebuild, I never said I believed that the reason that others might have survived into the next cycle was because of the startgazer, javik was able to do it, maybe we can get a few people to survive till the next, you seem to be thinking it in a worse case scenario. Its a rogue AI, and unless you metagame you don't know anything of what you just wrote, So I'm not doing anything a starkid tells me, The dog anology is sick because Geth are = to humans, thats like me saying your a monkey that has intellegence, you willingly kill the geth, their not casaulties of war, don't try to justify your genocide.

I never said Geth/EDI can be rebuilt. Most of what i wrote is CLEARLY stated in the game to Shepard. And you're trying to justify genocide on a galactic scale, dont act like you're any better. Condemning someone to certain death is unacceptable, no matter how you put it. i condemn the synthetics, you condemn everyone. No matter how you put it, that remains a fact.

[savionen]

Baronesa wrote...

It is interesting how, per the OP and title... the topic should be about reasons WITHOUT metagamming... and most (not all, there are some interesting reasons without emtagaming) of those cited so far rely on "lol everyone dies" which is an unknown for Shepard at that moment.

And consider what Nyoka posted... THAT defiance is what made Shepard who she is... When Shepard refuses it is not to give up, it is to fight till the end HOPING to win.

Exactly.

Reject seems pretty valid when Shepard can't see the future.

[The Angry One]

Baronesa wrote...

It is interesting how, per the OP and title... the topic should be about reasons WITHOUT metagamming... and most (not all, there are some interesting reasons without emtagaming) of those cited so far rely on "lol everyone dies" which is an unknown for Shepard at that moment.

And consider what Nyoka posted... THAT defiance is what made Shepard who she is... When Shepard refuses it is not to give up, it is to fight till the end HOPING to win.

Yeah, I expected as much though. I made this topic partly because I grew tired of every response to reject boiling down to "You're knowingly condemning everyone to death!".
No, Shepard is NOT. That's the whole damn point.

[ghost9191]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

actually it is genocide, look up the definition, you know you can't win and you just wasted most of your forces in this attack, even if you don't consider rufusing as genocide, the attack leading up to it is, you sent how many people to their deaths to achieve this chance to use the crucible? or the batarian colony, you can say it was to stop the reapers and not the same but it is, you intentionally killed them , the vi even said you would kill 305k batarians, which is what you do for destroy

[LiarasShield]

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

You're saying the Stargazer at the end of Reject was an asari or something? thats just pure bull**** and grasping at straws. Its just an alien form. Besides the legs are horse-like, rather than human/asari. Theres no evidence of survivors to the next cycle other than Liara's "beacons", just like Protheans.
About Catalyst telling the truth: Its an AI driven by the purpose of maintaining balance in the galaxy. The Crucible changed it's coding, allowing it to reach new solutions. It has no control over the use of the Crucible, it merely acts as a trigger mechanism to it and as a guide on how to use it. If it was lying, it couldve just said "shoot the pipe and you destroy the universe"(who would want to do THAT), instead he said it destroys the Reapers and synthetics. Sounds logical enough to me. The Geth are unfortunate casualties of war, just as there has allways been and allways will be. A man may love a dog like his child, but would never put it's life ahead of his own. Those that do are nutcases.

The same way Destroyers gasp as straws saying Geth/Edi can be rebuild, I never said I believed that the reason that others might have survived into the next cycle was because of the startgazer, javik was able to do it, maybe we can get a few people to survive till the next, you seem to be thinking it in a worse case scenario. Its a rogue AI, and unless you metagame you don't know anything of what you just wrote, So I'm not doing anything a starkid tells me, The dog anology is sick because Geth are = to humans, thats like me saying your a monkey that has intellegence, you willingly kill the geth, their not casaulties of war, don't try to justify your genocide.

I never said Geth/EDI can be rebuilt. Most of what i wrote is CLEARLY stated in the game to Shepard. And you're trying to justify genocide on a galactic scale, dont act like you're any better. Condemning someone to certain death is unacceptable, no matter how you put it. i condemn the synthetics, you condemn everyone. No matter how you put it, that remains a fact.

Dieing for freedom and dieing as a united front is better then force raping the galaxy with the crucible options i'm sorry hope and freewill must continue to exsist at least in reject it does for me

[Clayless]

humes spork wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Did you just go "lol headcanon" and then proceed to headcanon?

There's a thread full of people WHARGARBL'ing about the Catalyst's irrationality and using it as a justification for irrational behavior on their part. This surprises you?

Good point.

[IscrewTali]

If you dont use the Crucible in this cycle, you force the next cycle to use it, condemning either the synthetic life in the cycle, or all life. Lifting the burden of genocide from yourself, forcing another to commit it? Once again, Reapers CANNOT be defeated with conventional armies.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Great, let Shepard sacrifice his humanity then to save everyone else.

Except the Geth, and is everyones humanity, 
"Our cycle destroyed the Reapers, but we commited genocide in order to do it!" Yup

We destroyed the Reapers and suffered bad losses in doing so but now the galaxy is free from their threat forever.

You aren't saving the geth either. I can at least see where people who choose Synthesis are coming from, even though arguably it's a worse choice than Refuse.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

You're saying the Stargazer at the end of Reject was an asari or something? thats just pure bull**** and grasping at straws. Its just an alien form. Besides the legs are horse-like, rather than human/asari. Theres no evidence of survivors to the next cycle other than Liara's "beacons", just like Protheans.
About Catalyst telling the truth: Its an AI driven by the purpose of maintaining balance in the galaxy. The Crucible changed it's coding, allowing it to reach new solutions. It has no control over the use of the Crucible, it merely acts as a trigger mechanism to it and as a guide on how to use it. If it was lying, it couldve just said "shoot the pipe and you destroy the universe"(who would want to do THAT), instead he said it destroys the Reapers and synthetics. Sounds logical enough to me. The Geth are unfortunate casualties of war, just as there has allways been and allways will be. A man may love a dog like his child, but would never put it's life ahead of his own. Those that do are nutcases.

The same way Destroyers gasp as straws saying Geth/Edi can be rebuild, I never said I believed that the reason that others might have survived into the next cycle was because of the startgazer, javik was able to do it, maybe we can get a few people to survive till the next, you seem to be thinking it in a worse case scenario. Its a rogue AI, and unless you metagame you don't know anything of what you just wrote, So I'm not doing anything a starkid tells me, The dog anology is sick because Geth are = to humans, thats like me saying your a monkey that has intellegence, you willingly kill the geth, their not casaulties of war, don't try to justify your genocide.

I never said Geth/EDI can be rebuilt. Most of what i wrote is CLEARLY stated in the game to Shepard. And you're trying to justify genocide on a galactic scale, dont act like you're any better. Condemning someone to certain death is unacceptable, no matter how you put it. i condemn the synthetics, you condemn everyone. No matter how you put it, that remains a fact.

Never said you did, I said destroyers do, and its is completely stubborn if you honestly don't believe someone didn't make it to the next cycle but for the sake of it lets just say no they didn't, anyway. I Loss, I didn't commit genocide, I loss, As Barenosa said . "THAT defiance is what made Shepard who she/he is... When Shepard refuses it is not to give up, it is to fight till the end HOPING to win." I didn't condemm anyone, you purposly commit genocide because you wanted to ensure victory and are afraid of extinction.

[memorysquid]

Sauruz wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Lol headcanon.
We never see anyone die, let alone all races being wiped out. If anything, the Asari-looking stargazer seems to suggest that some species managed to survive into the next cycle (like Javik did).

Like the lady says, they don't know much because they only have the archives to go on.  So of course they lost; just like Liara says while she is condemning Shep's inexplicable failure to get the job done at any cost.  Reapers wipe out most of everything just like they did during previous cycles.

[Reorte]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, I expected as much though. I made this topic partly because I grew tired of every response to reject boiling down to "You're knowingly condemning everyone to death!".
No, Shepard is NOT. That's the whole damn point.

I don't think that makes any difference unless you can argue that before you made the choice, with no idea about the outcome, you thought that the odds were that you'd get less killed by refusing than with Destroy.

[ghost9191]

The Angry One wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

It is interesting how, per the OP and title... the topic should be about reasons WITHOUT metagamming... and most (not all, there are some interesting reasons without emtagaming) of those cited so far rely on "lol everyone dies" which is an unknown for Shepard at that moment.

And consider what Nyoka posted... THAT defiance is what made Shepard who she is... When Shepard refuses it is not to give up, it is to fight till the end HOPING to win.

Yeah, I expected as much though. I made this topic partly because I grew tired of every response to reject boiling down to "You're knowingly condemning everyone to death!".
No, Shepard is NOT. That's the whole damn point.

i get that but if you look at how much you sacrificed to get to this point, you would have to know that there is no way to win this without the crucible. you used most of your resources to build it . there is no winning in refusal, unless they change things up with dlc. so you know when you refuse you will be throwing lives away, maybe you might win but you are killing a lot of people by choosing to refuse. which is a act of genocide in itse;lf

[M Hedonist]

ghost9191 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

actually it is genocide, look up the definition, you know you can't win and you just wasted most of your forces in this attack, even if you don't consider rufusing as genocide, the attack leading up to it is, you sent how many people to their deaths to achieve this chance to use the crucible? or the batarian colony, you can say it was to stop the reapers and not the same but it is, you intentionally killed them , the vi even said you would kill 305k batarians, which is what you do for destroy

How do war losses have anything to do with genocide?
I think you're the one who should look up the definition of genocide.

[MegaSovereign]

This thread is primitive.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Great, let Shepard sacrifice his humanity then to save everyone else.

Except the Geth, and is everyones humanity, 
"Our cycle destroyed the Reapers, but we commited genocide in order to do it!" Yup

We destroyed the Reapers and suffered bad losses in doing so but now the galaxy is free from their threat forever.

You aren't saving the geth either. I can at least see where people who choose Synthesis are coming from, even though arguably it's a worse choice than Refuse.

Metagaming, and BTW hackett saying that is just a nice way of him saying we commited Genocide.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, I expected as much though. I made this topic partly because I grew tired of every response to reject boiling down to "You're knowingly condemning everyone to death!".
No, Shepard is NOT. That's the whole damn point.

I don't think that makes any difference unless you can argue that before you made the choice, with no idea about the outcome, you thought that the odds were that you'd get less killed by refusing than with Destroy.

The whole point of the thread, its unless you meta-game, did you read the title.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:49 .

[savionen]

Too much meta.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Great, let Shepard sacrifice his humanity then to save everyone else.

Except the Geth, and is everyones humanity, 
"Our cycle destroyed the Reapers, but we commited genocide in order to do it!" Yup

We destroyed the Reapers and suffered bad losses in doing so but now the galaxy is free from their threat forever.

You aren't saving the geth either. I can at least see where people who choose Synthesis are coming from, even though arguably it's a worse choice than Refuse.

Metagaming, and BTW hackett saying that is just a nice way of him saying we commited Genocide.

Metagaming matters if you're going to say that you'd make the same decision again, this time knowing full well the consequences of it.

[ghost9191]

Sauruz wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The whole fact that you need to use genocide to stop genocide already is reaching terrible territory what you are doing is not any better then those who are willing to die for freedom and not outright kill their own forces

You are clearly incapable of seeing that even when all choices are downright vile some are still even more vile than others.

Refusal isn't, you go down fighting, its not genocide, you loss, but you don't commit genocide and loss your humanity.

actually it is genocide, look up the definition, you know you can't win and you just wasted most of your forces in this attack, even if you don't consider rufusing as genocide, the attack leading up to it is, you sent how many people to their deaths to achieve this chance to use the crucible? or the batarian colony, you can say it was to stop the reapers and not the same but it is, you intentionally killed them , the vi even said you would kill 305k batarians, which is what you do for destroy

How do war losses have anything to do with genocide?
I think you're the one who should look up the definition of genocide.

which is the same as destroying the geth is what i am saying. it is war, they are a casaulty of war. just as the geth are. if you want to call killing the geth genocide then you ordering your troops to attack is a act of genocide. you sent them in knowing damn well that most were going to die

you just said it yourself, "how do war losses have anything to do with genocide?" that is what the geth are, war losses

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .