1027 réponses à ce sujet

[elitehunter34]

humes spork wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Stuff.

Your entire argument is precipitated upon the notion the Crucible is somehow a Reaper trap, and a necessary component of the harvest.

That it is somehow a necessary component of the harvest is blatantly and obviously untrue. The notion the Crucible is a Reaper trap takes Occam's razor and throws it into the nearest volcano.

Why would the Reapers leave its construction to organic species? Why would the Reapers attempt to stop its deployment? Why would they require a cooperative, not indoctrinated organic to activate it?

That it might be a Reaper trap is even less parsimonious, raising even more questions. Namely, if it is a Reaper superweapon that does what you claim -- increase the expediency and efficiency of the harvest -- why would it be a weapon of last resort? Even if you argue the cost of the weapon -- damaging or destroying the relay network -- outweighs its benefits to the point of being a Godzilla Threshold Device, you're metagaming for one, but for practical purposes the Reapers are still a patient species that as the epilogues demonstrate (you opened the metagame door here, not me) can easily repair the relay network, and that the Reapers would leave their Godzilla Threshold Device's construction at the hands of organics and its activation at the behest of an un-indoctrinated organic. That position makes even less sense than what you claim the ending itself does.

I never said the Crucible is a Reaper trap.  You're making a straw man argument.  What I'm saying is that Shepard has no way of knowing whether or not the Catalyst can take control of the Crucible and use it for his own means. That is an entirely different thing than saying the Crucible is a Reaper trap.

[estebanus]

I would have to agree.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

JackumsD wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Rejection is perhaps the dullest choice one can make: causing the deaths and harvesting of trillions of lives because you're too proud and unable to put aside your petty sentiments for the well-being of all galactic civilisation? Yay, genius, such a self-sacrificing hero

The Star Child is trustworthy simply because his statements come from EONS of observation.
Besides, why the hell should he lie? He doesn't need to. Without any action from the crucible, the galaxy simply loses the war. Then the next cycle wins because they were smart enough to actually USE the big space-magic weapon

Therefore, every other choice is better than rejection. From both Shepard's perspective and that of any person of sense.

Fixed.

Fixed.

Again unless you metagame you don't know that, read the OP please.

[Rhayak]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Fixed.

Sticking to the values? LOL the value of the MAss Effect games is FIGHT LIKE HELL. The Crucible is our ultimate weapon. One wouldn't spill oceans of blood and then just weasel away from it.

[M Hedonist]

memorysquid wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Reorte wrote...

You aren't saving the geth either.

Alright. I got a challenge for you:
Prove that. Using only content found inside the game, prove that all Geth stop to exist in the Reject ending.

Geth have good memories and the lady with the kid says they only have archives to go off. 

That's actually a good point.
Still, Geth could have fled to another galaxy. Or they're still waiting somewhere in "standby mode" at that point.

Plus Liara says our galaxy lost and all died.

Actually, she only says that they "failed to stop them". She never says anything that could imply that "all died".

Plus the Catalyst says synthetics get Reaperized too.

That has nothing to do with it. Likewise, many organics could have survived into the next cycle.

[IscrewTali]

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

If you dont use the Crucible in this cycle, you force the next cycle to use it, condemning either the synthetic life in the cycle, or all life. Lifting the burden of genocide from yourself, forcing another to commit it? Once again, Reapers CANNOT be defeated with conventional armies.

Actually with our information on the reapers and time and preperation they could find another solution coventional or not and their is a chance they may not use the crucible again I believe in freedom not genocide not forcing everybody to be the same or play god that isn't for me

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

[Bizantura]

Morals are so arbitrary. What is moral to one person is not for another. So I avoid it alltogether. I do the only thing I can, what could benefit everybody? Within the parameters of the game with EC dlc that is the Refuse option. It allows the maximum "freedom/free will" option for everyone. Yes, I will die with all my comrades, organic and non organic alike.

Is that meta gaming? I certainly project my "freedom/free will" idea on my Shepard because it is never discussed in game. So I don't know what game Shepard would actually think.

The spacechild is a totalitarian nutcase and it doesn't matter what it says or options it gives me, the nutcase part is fact = cannot be trusted. Free will/freedom for all is not on its agenda.

The sacrifice of all the lives in this cycle by choosing the Refuse option is often used as moral despicable and therefore a no go. But die I must and I rather not be snuffed out by a reaper but I rather die free with "all" my comrades then betray a few of them. I don't go for the needs of the many outways the need of the few, for me thats convenient bolderdash. Its an excuse to make a little genocide here and there acceptable for yourself.

What the next cycle will do with Liara's information? Who knows. At least there free to choose.
I choose to project they defeat the reapers conventionally and make a good life for themselfs.

[LiarasShield]

Rhayak wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Fixed.

Sticking to the values? LOL the value of the MAss Effect games is FIGHT LIKE HELL. The Crucible is our ultimate weapon. One wouldn't spill oceans of blood and then just weasel away from it.

Well A True Paragon wouldn't turn everybody into half machines or destroy their dna or alter their dna nor would a true paragon player sacrifice his or her own forces to kill the reapers nor do I think a paragon would try to play god with power that is beyond our understand and most likely will cause danger in the future

[Jackums]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Rejection is perhaps the dullest choice one can make: causing the deaths and harvesting of trillions of lives because you're too proud and unable to put aside your petty sentiments for the well-being of all galactic civilisation? Yay, genius, such a self-sacrificing hero

The Star Child is trustworthy simply because his statements come from EONS of observation.
Besides, why the hell should he lie? He doesn't need to. Without any action from the crucible, the galaxy simply loses the war. Then the next cycle wins because they were smart enough to actually USE the big space-magic weapon

Therefore, every other choice is better than rejection. From both Shepard's perspective and that of any person of sense.

Fixed.

Fixed.

Again unless you metagame you don't know that, read the OP please.

Shepard is well aware conventional victory is not possible.

[N-Seven]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Trusting your enemy and doing what he tells you its not a good idea in war, unless you metagame, thats how it seems.

"Sir, our forces are getting utterly destroyed.   We're up against a vastly superior force and the casualties, both military and civilian, are huge.   But an envoy from the enemy has appeared, and he wishes to parley a solution."

"He can't be trusted!  He must have some plan to defeat us, even though...umm...he is already doing that.  Anyways...I kinda hate kids, so whatever.  HONOR!!!  EVERYONE, TO THE DEATH!!"

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Rhayak wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Fixed.

Sticking to the values? LOL the value of the MAss Effect games is FIGHT LIKE HELL. The Crucible is our ultimate weapon. One wouldn't spill oceans of blood and then just weasel away from it.

I remember my shepard saying " I rather die fighting than to live like that", My thoughs exactly.

[savionen]

IscrewTali wrote...

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

Hmm... we have these plans for this ancient thing that is somehow related to the Reapers. It might do something with them.... maybe. Let's build that instead of building ships, thinking up new tactics against the Reapers, or salvaging Reaper tech to make new weapons, armor and shields!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

JackumsD wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The AI hacked it, and added two options that would preserve itself

No, it didn't. Previous cycles added those new features to the Crucible.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

and Control because it still exists even though it takes on the aspects of the new controller,

No, it doesn't. Shepard replaces it entirely. It states this.

I didn't remember that so it was irrelevant in my decision.

All three main choices (Destroy, Control, Synthesis) are equally valid and end the Reaper threat. Refuse ends the Reaper threat, but not until a later cycle where they just use the Crucible anyway. Ergo, RGB are valid and Refuse is just a redundant, prideful sacrifice of trillions of lives for no reason.

In my opinion they are not equally valid. Synthesis and Control have some serious ethical issues that do not exist in Destroy. These have been discussed to death in other threads and do not need to be discussed here. Refuse, however, is a prideful sacrifice of trillions of lives for the sake of your personal "honor". It is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I do no see a point in delaying a chance for victory. It could take hundreds more cycles before another gets to where you are
so you could be condemning quadrillions to death by refusing to play. Like Javik said, ask the trillions of dead souls if honor matters. Their silence is your answer.

So I say take the chance. You know refusal means certain death for all. So what have you got to lose by shooting the red tube? Nothing. I'm not a gambling woman, but here I'll play the game. Deal me in.

[Rhayak]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I remember my shepard saying " I rather die fighting than to live like that", My thoughs exactly.

Yeah, my Shepard said the same when talking to Saren about being slaves to the machines.

Only the Rejection ending brings that about. Slaves, then grey goop.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

N-Seven wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Trusting your enemy and doing what he tells you its not a good idea in war, unless you metagame, thats how it seems.

"Sir, our forces are getting utterly destroyed.   We're up against a vastly superior force and the casualties, both military and civilian, are huge.   But an envoy from the enemy has appeared, and he wishes to parley a solution."

"He can't be trusted!  He must have some plan to defeat us, even though...umm...he is already doing that.  Anyways...I kinda hate kids, so whatever.  HONOR!!!  EVERYONE, TO THE DEATH!!"

I admit I pictured it in my head and I laughed. But in all seriousness, Its better than
"OKSZ I AMZ THE CATALYST, AND I WILL GIVESS YOU THREE CHOICES AND BARELY TELL YOU WHAT THEY DO, MASS GENOCIDE, MASS SLAVERY AND MASS MOLESTATION, CHOOSE BECAUSE IM YOUR ENEMY AND I WANT TO HELPZ YOU.

[elitehunter34]

jsadalia wrote...

He knows the consequences of reaper victory, and they are awful--there is nothing worse. 

Choosing one of the Catalyt's choices is a terrible risk. But it's a chance of success versus the certainty of defeat.

It has nothing to do with the player knowing how things turn out.

By the way, addressing this: "Or he could use the Crucible and it leads to a fate worse than destruction, such as the organic races becoming a Reaper. "  This is actually what Shepard knows will happen if he does not use the Crucible. That's what the reapers do.

No, it is not a chance of success, its a chance of success versus the slim possiblity of victory.  That is the subtle, but crucial difference here.  Look, you've been told that you can't defeat the Reaper's conventionally, I know that.  But you know what else you have been told?  That the mission to the Omega 4 relay was a suicide mission, and you could get out with everyone alive.  You were also told that you couldn't stop Sovereign, you did.  Don't mistake someone saying something being an impossiblility for an actual impossibility.

Alright, I'll concede that it doesn't have anything to do with the player knowing how things will turn out, but my previous post's argument still stands.  Shepard has no good reason to use the Crucible because of the existance of the Catalyst.


EDIT:  quotes got a little messed up

Modifié par elitehunter34, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:22 .

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That's the decision you've got to make, based on what little information you've got. It's marginally more information than you had before the Catalyst showed up and you were ready to try to activate the Crucible with everyone fully admitting that they didn't know what it would do.

Trusting your enemy and doing what he tells you its not a good idea in war, unless you metagame, thats how it seems.

You need to look beyond just what it's saying and ask how likely it is to make things even worse. Even if you don't believe a word of it activating the thing anyway is a much lesser gamble than fighting on for almost certain Reaper victory. Also, consider what it says. It seems to be trying to steer you away from Destroy. Why does it speak at all? It doesn't appear to be able to actually intervene to stop Shepard from doing something, all it can do is talk him around to its preferred choice.

[M Hedonist]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

If you dont use the Crucible in this cycle, you force the next cycle to use it, condemning either the synthetic life in the cycle, or all life. Lifting the burden of genocide from yourself, forcing another to commit it? Once again, Reapers CANNOT be defeated with conventional armies.

Actually with our information on the reapers and time and preperation they could find another solution coventional or not and their is a chance they may not use the crucible again I believe in freedom not genocide not forcing everybody to be the same or play god that isn't for me

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

"a coward's way out"?
You're surrendering the war and agreeing upon a compromise as soon as you pick any of the Crucible's functions. By using the Reject ending you actually continue to fight the war.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Rhayak wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I remember my shepard saying " I rather die fighting than to live like that", My thoughs exactly.

Yeah, my Shepard said the same when talking to Saren about being slaves to the machines.

Only the Rejection ending brings that about. Slaves, then grey goop.

No, you live knowing that you followed the Catalyst Tyrany and commited Genocide to win a war, you submitted because you were afraid of extinction and you wanted to ensure you win instead of dyinh., Again i will use this reference, Padok wiks said commiting genocide to stop genocide is wrong.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

[quote]elitehunter34 wrote...

Every piece of information Shepard has informs him that the reapers cannot be beaten conventionally, and that the Crucible is the only way to defeat them.

He knows the consequences of reaper victory, and they are awful--there is nothing worse. 

Choosing one of the Catalyt's choices is a terrible risk. But it's a chance of success versus the certainty of defeat.

It has nothing to do with the player knowing how things turn out.

By the way, addressing this: "Or he could use the Crucible and it leads to a fate worse than destruction, such as the organic races becoming a Reaper. "  This is actually what Shepard knows will happen if he does not use the Crucible. That's what the reapers do.
[/quote]

No, it is not a chance of success, its a chance of success versus the slim possiblity of victory.  That is the subtle, but crucial difference here.  Look, you've been told that you can't defeat the Reaper's conventionally, I know that.  But you know what else you have been told?  That the mission to the Omega 4 relay was a suicide mission, and you could get out with everyone alive.  You were also told that you couldn't stop Sovereign, you did.  Don't mistake someone saying something being an impossiblility for an actual impossibility.

Alright, I'll concede that it doesn't have anything to do with the player knowing how things will turn out, but my previous post's argument still stands.  Shepard has no good reason to use the Crucible because of the existance of the Catalyst.

[/quote]"OKSZ I AMZ THE CATALYST, AND I WILL GIVESS YOU THREE CHOICES AND BARELY TELL YOU WHAT THEY DO, MASS GENOCIDE, MASS SLAVERY AND MASS MOLESTATION, CHOOSE BECAUSE IM YOUR ENEMY AND I WANT TO HELPZ YOU.

[memorysquid]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Rejection is perhaps the dullest choice one can make: sticking to the values of everything that was done over the course of three games? Yay, genius

The Star Child is trustworthy simply because his statements come from EONS of observation.
Besides, why the hell should he lie? He doesn't need to. Without any action from the crucible, the galaxy simply loses the war. Then the next cycle wins because they were smart enough to actually USE the big space-magic weapon

Therefore, every other choice is better than rejection. From both Shepard's perspective and that of any person of sense.

Fixed.

Like when Shepard "did the impossible" by sending an asteroid into a relay killing over 300,000 Batarians so he could "stick to his core values" of making sure to kill as many Batarians as he personally could before allowing the galaxy to die by being paralyzed with indecision.  Khajit reasoning at its finest.

[Apocaleepse360]

I was going to read the whole thread to keep up to date with this discussion, but it's like 18 pages long and I really can't be bothered with that. 

So I'll just say what probably a lot of other people have already said: It's a damn shame that our war assets aren't taken into consideration when we refuse the Catalyst's options. Like I said before, there are a lot of fan-made endings where it has come to that and some have been written out pretty well. So my question is... Why didn't BioWare enable our war assets to come into play where they would have mattered the most, and as a result our decisions would have mattered?

Oh yeah almost forgot... Synthesis needs to be the most likeable option there. <_<

[LiarasShield]

Sauruz wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

If you dont use the Crucible in this cycle, you force the next cycle to use it, condemning either the synthetic life in the cycle, or all life. Lifting the burden of genocide from yourself, forcing another to commit it? Once again, Reapers CANNOT be defeated with conventional armies.

Actually with our information on the reapers and time and preperation they could find another solution coventional or not and their is a chance they may not use the crucible again I believe in freedom not genocide not forcing everybody to be the same or play god that isn't for me

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

"a coward's way out"?
You're surrendering the war and agreeing upon a compromise as soon as you pick any of the Crucible's functions. By using the Reject ending you actually continue to fight the war.

Exactly refuse isn't a cowards way out because were still fighting them giving them all we got for we die

[savionen]

memorysquid wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Rejection is perhaps the dullest choice one can make: sticking to the values of everything that was done over the course of three games? Yay, genius

The Star Child is trustworthy simply because his statements come from EONS of observation.
Besides, why the hell should he lie? He doesn't need to. Without any action from the crucible, the galaxy simply loses the war. Then the next cycle wins because they were smart enough to actually USE the big space-magic weapon

Therefore, every other choice is better than rejection. From both Shepard's perspective and that of any person of sense.

Fixed.

Like when Shepard "did the impossible" by sending an asteroid into a relay killing over 300,000 Batarians so he could "stick to his core values" of making sure to kill as many Batarians as he personally could before allowing the galaxy to die by being paralyzed with indecision.  Khajit reasoning at its finest.

Arrival apparently isn't canon, so....

[memorysquid]

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]elitehunter34 wrote...

Every piece of information Shepard has informs him that the reapers cannot be beaten conventionally, and that the Crucible is the only way to defeat them.

He knows the consequences of reaper victory, and they are awful--there is nothing worse. 

Choosing one of the Catalyt's choices is a terrible risk. But it's a chance of success versus the certainty of defeat.

It has nothing to do with the player knowing how things turn out.

By the way, addressing this: "Or he could use the Crucible and it leads to a fate worse than destruction, such as the organic races becoming a Reaper. "  This is actually what Shepard knows will happen if he does not use the Crucible. That's what the reapers do.
[/quote]

No, it is not a chance of success, its a chance of success versus the slim possiblity of victory.  That is the subtle, but crucial difference here.  Look, you've been told that you can't defeat the Reaper's conventionally, I know that.  But you know what else you have been told?  That the mission to the Omega 4 relay was a suicide mission, and you could get out with everyone alive.  You were also told that you couldn't stop Sovereign, you did.  Don't mistake someone saying something being an impossiblility for an actual impossibility.

Alright, I'll concede that it doesn't have anything to do with the player knowing how things will turn out, but my previous post's argument still stands.  Shepard has no good reason to use the Crucible because of the existance of the Catalyst.

[/quote]"OKSZ I AMZ THE CATALYST, AND I WILL GIVESS YOU THREE CHOICES AND BARELY TELL YOU WHAT THEY DO, MASS GENOCIDE, MASS SLAVERY AND MASS MOLESTATION, CHOOSE BECAUSE IM YOUR ENEMY AND I WANT TO HELPZ YOU.[/quote]

Or you could listen to what was actually said in game rather than substituting this ridiculous strawman.  But since there isn't much chance of that I am going to ... reject ... your characterization.