1027 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

savionen wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

Hmm... we have these plans for this ancient thing that is somehow related to the Reapers. It might do something with them.... maybe. Let's build that instead of building ships, thinking up new tactics against the Reapers, or salvaging Reaper tech to make new weapons, armor and shields!

If that was a valid option and a possibility for winning the war, the Crucible plans wouldve been ditched countless cycles ago. Do you really think the previous cycles havent reached the same conclusions? Even by Javik's standards, this cycle is still primitive. if so, i would like to see the most advanced cycles and how they failed to defeat the Reapers. And no matter what you do, Reapers have agents watchers like Sovereign in every cycle, making sure their technology stays within their ideal boundaries. It's simply not possible to advance technology enough to surpass the Reapers before they arrive.

Ahh but the next generation would have thousand of years to prepare and be ready for the reapers that was way more of a warning and preperation that we got espically since the council denied the reapers exsistence for two of the games

Knowing about it doesnt help if you lack the technology to deal with it. And the Reapers wont allow you to reach such peak in technology.

Won't let me that is funny since liara has her information of our technology and the reapers spread throughtout the galaxy and different planets with her time capsules under each planet I don't think I neeed to let the reapers do anything for the next cycle to be more then ready for the reapers

The tech liara vi offers is not sufficient to defeat them, evidenced by the utter destruction of the galactic fleet above Earth. Also, the "every 50k years" is merely an indication of how fast a civilication can evolve to the point where Reapers return. if the next cycle reaches similar tech within 10k years, thats when the Reapers return. The galaxy is under constant surveillance. Dont let overconfidance and arrogance fool you into thinking otherwise. The only unknown variable was the Crucible, and now that it's been docked once, the Reapers will make sure that never happens again.

Once again how I feel the next generation found a better solution *Claps hands and smiles*

[Jeb231]

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

Modifié par Jeb231, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:42 .

[RiouHotaru]

Ryzaki wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

If only Mike Gamble and Jessica Merizan had kept their big mouths shut about this ending.

Agreed. That hurr durr next cycle used the Crucible anyway idiocy was just plain unnecessary.

Except it's not idiocy.  As for arguing that "It doesn't make any sense for the next cycle to use it!", well, not everything has to make sense.  And there's still a number of reasons for them to use it, even taking into account Liara's message.

The only people are mad over it is because the game doesn't conform to the headcanon of "conventional victory should be possible."

[The Heretic of Time]

savionen wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

savionen wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So Shepard spends an entire war on collecting resources to build this giant magical MacGuffin to stop the Reapers, only to in the end not use it? The whole damn galaxy puts everything they got into building this Crucible. They trust in the Crucible and they trust in Shepard to use it to stop the flippin' Reapers and end this cycle NOW!

Rejection is the most insane, most arrogant and most f***ed up choice ever- unless you meta-game.

I did not spend a whole f***ing game on building some giant magical MacGuffin only to not use it.

You could also say that you spend the entire game collecting war assets and building an army that is never used. The Crucible goes off in every ending except Reject. The Reapers lose in every ending, including Reject, regardless of EMS.

You're meta-gaming now. You base your argument on a game-mechanic, not on the in-game lore. The fact that EMS becomes reduntant in the end is just a result of bad game-design. The Crucible is a result of bad writing. Take your pick.

And it's not like EMS is completely obsolete. Your EMS determines in what condition the Crucible is delivered to the Citadel. if your EMS is low, the Crucible is heavily damaged, leaving you with fewer and worse options (for example the low-EMS version of the Destroy ending being your only option when you have a super low EMS).

I didn't build an army and unite the galaxy to defend the Crucible. I did it to fight the Reapers. They don't even really say EMS is related to the Crucible ever, do they? Not til the very end at least.

It seems someone didn't pay attention during ME3. As soon as the plans for the Crucible are found, it is made clear that this MacGuffin is your only hope. The only reason why you gather an army and unite the galaxy is to build this Crucible and create and army big enough to deliver this Crucible to the hotzone and use it. it has been made very clear from the start that this war can't be won conventionally. The Crucible was always our only hope.

[v TricKy v]

Jamesui wrote...

It could be argued that the refusal ending is not an attempt to win conventionally. It is an attempt to retain our ability to self-determine and make the Reapers' victory as pyrrhic as possible. Codex entries already confirmed that the allied forces had destroyed dozens of reaper ships of all sizes, even if at a heavy cost. Who's to say we can't manage thinning them out a little more for the next cycle? Refusal is going out with a bang and passing on - nay, rekindling - the torch.

Again, without metagaming the choice, we have no guarantee that playing into the starbrat's proffered choices will not be detrimental. If we trust him so far as to how h described the crucible, we've only provided the battery. He gets to decide its utility. Firing it off may very well instantly incapacitate organic forces for easy Reaperification, for example.

That a possible reasoning. But watch out. You will get flamed here for taking the "wrong" choice

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

savionen wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Again with the IF's and MAY's. There is no room for that in war, saying otherwise is just hippie crap. No matter how you put it, you fail to make the hard decision, pushing it for someone else to make. A coward's way out. Standing together is just an excuse for you failing to make the decision. If the countless cycles before you believed conventional victory was possible, they'd never have bothered with Crucible. You're not only doing the current and next cycle a favor by destroying them, but to all cycles that came before you, laying the groundwork so that you could finally end it.

Hmm... we have these plans for this ancient thing that is somehow related to the Reapers. It might do something with them.... maybe. Let's build that instead of building ships, thinking up new tactics against the Reapers, or salvaging Reaper tech to make new weapons, armor and shields!

If that was a valid option and a possibility for winning the war, the Crucible plans wouldve been ditched countless cycles ago. Do you really think the previous cycles havent reached the same conclusions? Even by Javik's standards, this cycle is still primitive. if so, i would like to see the most advanced cycles and how they failed to defeat the Reapers. And no matter what you do, Reapers have agents watchers like Sovereign in every cycle, making sure their technology stays within their ideal boundaries. It's simply not possible to advance technology enough to surpass the Reapers before they arrive.

Ahh but the next generation would have thousand of years to prepare and be ready for the reapers that was way more of a warning and preperation that we got espically since the council denied the reapers exsistence for two of the games

Knowing about it doesnt help if you lack the technology to deal with it. And the Reapers wont allow you to reach such peak in technology.

Won't let me that is funny since liara has her information of our technology and the reapers spread throughtout the galaxy and different planets with her time capsules under each planet I don't think I neeed to let the reapers do anything for the next cycle to be more then ready for the reapers

The tech liara vi offers is not sufficient to defeat them, evidenced by the utter destruction of the galactic fleet above Earth. Also, the "every 50k years" is merely an indication of how fast a civilication can evolve to the point where Reapers return. if the next cycle reaches similar tech within 10k years, thats when the Reapers return. The galaxy is under constant surveillance. Dont let overconfidance and arrogance fool you into thinking otherwise. The only unknown variable was the Crucible, and now that it's been docked once, the Reapers will make sure that never happens again.

Your wrong, according to BW the next cycle defeats the Reapers by using the Crucible.

Link please.

[LiarasShield]

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

[humes spork]

savionen wrote...

I didn't build an army and unite the galaxy to defend the Crucible. I did it to fight the Reapers. They don't even really say EMS is related to the Crucible ever, do they? Not til the very end at least.

Other than the thousands of points' worth of TMS you collect for the express purpose of building the Crucible, and the fact Hackett repeatedly says to look out for assets that can contribute to the Crucible's construction in addition to military forces, sure.

[IscrewTali]

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

[Jeb231]

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

When principles end up destroying all life in the galaxy they suck. This is worse than the mass murdering destroy option.

[Rasofe]

The funamental flaw is that unlike the other two reaper villains we have seen so far, the Catalyst does not consider itself transcend above good and evil. It seems entirely convinced that it is a good guy and so isn't mean to you unless your EMS is too low (How? Why? don't ask)

This is an over-excited attempt to humanise a villain that isn't human in any sense of the word. The fact that the Catalyst is whatsoever trustworthy is a FORCED FACT, in the same way that Kryptonite hurts Superman. Technically, no, the player has no way to know that the creature is telling you the truth and the refusal option is great for those who just don't acknowledge this.

But the three colour endings are for those who have actually decided that spending this much risk into a gigantic machine that they don't know what it does and then not using it means much of your preious work was completely pointless anyway. And just about no one wants to admit to themselves that what they've been doing was utterly pointless - which quite understandable.

[savionen]

humes spork wrote...

savionen wrote...

I didn't build an army and unite the galaxy to defend the Crucible. I did it to fight the Reapers. They don't even really say EMS is related to the Crucible ever, do they? Not til the very end at least.

Other than the thousands of points' worth of TMS you collect for the express purpose of building the Crucible, and the fact Hackett repeatedly says to look out for assets that can contribute to the Crucible's construction in addition to military forces, sure.

Yeah, in addition to military forces. Either or. You're building the Crucible and an army at the same time. I was always under the impression that if you gathered enough of X you'd finish the Crucible.

Regardless of what you do the Crucible is finished enough to work.
Regardless of what you do the Reapers lose.

[elitehunter34]

humes spork wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

This.  The options are "pick a choice and possibly fail" or "do nothing and fail for certain."

It's not meta-gaming to conclude:  "I'll pick the choice I think will work the best.  I don't have anything to lose otherwise."

They're headcanoning there is something greater to lose by not refusing despite all arguments and evidence to the contrary, and passing off headcanon as fact. Hell, a few pages ago I posted not one but two payoff matrices for the final choice to make the point refusal is irrational and actually got flamed for it. Even more tellingly is they're using the Catalyst's perceived irrationality as justification for their own irrational behavior.

I have to wonder what there is to gain here, by engaging people like this.

Knock it off.  No one is flaming you.  Don't try to write off legitimate criticism by calling everyone that disagrees with you irrational.  That is not how we should debate.

[memorysquid]

Sauruz wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

What was it the Reapers were doing that our galaxy failed to stop?  Oh yeah, Reaperizing everyone and everything as in previous cycles.  Seriously?

She said "failed to stop them". That could simply mean "failed to stop the Reapers" as in failed to kill them. If she wanted to say "stop them from reaperizing everyone and everything" she would have said that.
Also, they never reaperized Javik. With all the things the Protheans left back for the currect cycle it's very apparent that thoroughness isn't one of the Reapers' strengths.

She could have said "failed to stop them" and meant failed to stop delivery of a pepperoni pizza by Harbinger et al. to Ilos.  You'd just be silly to claim she did.  'Stop' doesn't mean 'kill' and your interpretation leaves understanding why they only have archives to know our galaxy [or even refer to it as different] inexplicable.  You're inventing headcanon as you go to prove that every other choice relies upon metagaming and ignoring the game itself in the process.

There is no  point in discussing an issue when you continually add spurious interpretations to salvage your point of view.  I point out how a literal interpretation of what the game shows proves something wrong, and I get some arbitrary nonsense and what X COULD mean.

[LiarasShield]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

That is how you feel not how I feel

[elitehunter34]

humes spork wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

I never said the Crucible is a Reaper trap.  You're making a straw man argument.  What I'm saying is that Shepard has no way of knowing whether or not the Catalyst can take control of the Crucible and use it for his own means. That is an entirely different thing than saying the Crucible is a Reaper trap.

Oh yes, the difference between the Crucible being a Reaper trap, and being used as a Reaper trap, is staggering.

Yes there is a difference is, but thats not the point.  Look, here's what I'm trying to get it.  You were saying that Shepard can only benefit from trusting the Star Child and that if Shepard mistrusts him, he can only lose.  

Look, I'm not saying the Crucible is 100% chance a Reaper trap.  That wasn't the point of my original argument.  I was using the Reaper trap as an example to say that there is a possiblility that trusting the starchild could have serious consequences.  That was my entire point.  

You were saying in your matrix that you can assume that distrusting the Catalyst is the illogical choice because it will always lead in defeat.  How do you know that?  How do you know that there is a 100% chance that rejecting the Catalyst will result in defeat.  You cant make that assumption.  Yes it is highly plausible you will be defeated.  But a 99% chance of something happening is a totally different thing than saying theres a 100% chance of something happening.  So yes something could be gained by distrusting the Catalyst.  Therefore, the point you are trying to make with the matrix is moot.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[memorysquid]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

If only Mike Gamble and Jessica Merizan had kept their big mouths shut about this ending.

Agreed. That hurr durr next cycle used the Crucible anyway idiocy was just plain unnecessary.

Except it's not idiocy.  As for arguing that "It doesn't make any sense for the next cycle to use it!", well, not everything has to make sense.  And there's still a number of reasons for them to use it, even taking into account Liara's message.

The only people are mad over it is because the game doesn't conform to the headcanon of "conventional victory should be possible."

Bingo!  And just look at the lengths they'll go to rationalize that preference.

[The Heretic of Time]

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

That is how you feel not how I feel

No, that's a fact if there ever was one. screwTali is right. The Crucible was our only hope from the very beginning. Admiral Hackett knew this, Anderson knew this, all the united species in the galaxy knew this, Liara knew this even Shepard knew this. You're simply deluding yourself into thinking otherwise.

[IscrewTali]

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

That is how you feel not how I feel

How u feel is irrelevant in the face of facts.

[Ryzaki]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

If only Mike Gamble and Jessica Merizan had kept their big mouths shut about this ending.

Agreed. That hurr durr next cycle used the Crucible anyway idiocy was just plain unnecessary.

Except it's not idiocy.  As for arguing that "It doesn't make any sense for the next cycle to use it!", well, not everything has to make sense.  And there's still a number of reasons for them to use it, even taking into account Liara's message.

The only people are mad over it is because the game doesn't conform to the headcanon of "conventional victory should be possible."

Yes it is. The next cycle is told the Crucible doesn't work. The next cycle has clear to understand warnings (unlike the gibberish Shep's cycle gets) and has time to preopare.

The Reapers are not gods.

There is no reason for them to use the Crucible instead of defeating the Reapers conventionally. So yes idiocy.

Wrong. I have no issue with Shepard losing. His cycle squandered any chances of defeating the Reapers conventionally time and time again. The next cycle having to use the Crucible is where I get irritated. So stop assuming.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:52 .

[LiarasShield]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

That is how you feel not how I feel

How u feel is irrelevant in the face of facts.

You believe it to be fact or because you see it as your own personal cannon we don't see what really happens in the next cycle they might have found another solution but we don't know because it was never shown either way to me their was a new solution sorry that you don't like that idea but that is for you since you supported the crucible anyway shrugs

[The Heretic of Time]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes it is. The next cycle is told the Crucible doesn't work. The next cycle has clear to understand warnings (unlike the gibberish Shep's cycle gets) and has time to preopare.

The Reapers are not gods.

There is no reason for them to use the Crucible instead of defeating the Reapers conventionally. So yes idiocy.

So when your told that something didn't work, you jus throw it out of the window? Are you really that stupid? I hope the next cycle is smarter than you are.

Usually when something that should work doesn't work, it means it's either incomplete, or it's broken. When something is broken, normal people usually try to fix it first before they throw it away.

The logical assumption here is that the next cycle will examine the Crucible and figure out why it didn't work and how they can make sure it does work this time. Then they will fix or upgrade the Crucible and use it and beat the Reapers.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[IscrewTali]

Ryzaki wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

If only Mike Gamble and Jessica Merizan had kept their big mouths shut about this ending.

Agreed. That hurr durr next cycle used the Crucible anyway idiocy was just plain unnecessary.

Except it's not idiocy.  As for arguing that "It doesn't make any sense for the next cycle to use it!", well, not everything has to make sense.  And there's still a number of reasons for them to use it, even taking into account Liara's message.

The only people are mad over it is because the game doesn't conform to the headcanon of "conventional victory should be possible."

Yes it is. The next cycle is told the Crucible doesn't work. The next cycle has clear to understand warnings (unlike the gibberish Shep's cycle gets) and has time to preopare.

The Reapers are not gods.

There is no reason for them to use the Crucible instead of defeating the Reapers conventionally. So yes idiocy.

Wrong. I have no issue with Shepard losing. His cycle squandered any chances of defeating the Reapers conventionally time and time again. The next cycle having to use the Crucible is where I get irritated. So stop assuming.

I say this again, knowing about it and being able to prepare for it doesnt matter. The Reapers are constantly watching over the technological evolution of the galaxy, and when it reaches the stage they desire, they invade. It's simply not possible to overcome the Reapers with technological prowess and clever tactics. They dont allow it.

[Femlob]

IscrewTali wrote...

There is no other solution. The only solution has and allways will be the Crucible.

Which is exactly why this game f*cking sucks.

[N-Seven]

LiarasShield wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Once again turning people into half machines messing with their dna and killing the geth or the quarians to destroy the reapers or playing with power that may end up causing more damage then good I like refuse you like the other options that just won't change *shrugs*

So letting Reapers kill all advanced life in the galaxy including machines works better for you?
There isn't a perfect ending. It's a lesson of life.

You mean dieing with my principles and not willing to force everybody to be the same become a powerful dictator with unlimited power or destroy my forces to kill the reapers then yes I'm willing to pass the torch down for the next generation to find another solution

And how about the countless beings that don't share your principles that will die with you?  Good on you for deciding for them.  Reject is not better than any other option.

But I'd wager that if somehow the situation was being broadcast across the galaxy, there would be billions of innocent civilians begging for you to push a button so they wouldn't become space sludge.   Sure, the other options aren't without quandaries either, but sludgification is probably near the bottom of their list.