humes spork wrote...
elitehunter34 wrote...
How can you call the Miracle of Palaven a strategic loss? What evidence do you have to back up this claim?
Remember the two conversations with Garrus in which he outright states the turians are taking unacceptable casualties and will be forced to withdraw from Palaven, and later that the turians were forced to withdraw, anyways? The ones between the "Miracle at Palaven" and rallying the fleets to Earth? The "ruthless calculus of war" conversations?
It's a strategic loss, just like every other "victory" in the war. Get over it.
What do you have other than speculation that the Reapers have the numerical advantage?
Did you read the "Fall of Earth", "Battle for Palaven" and "Fall of Thessia" codex entries? Or are you just engaging in cherry-picking? Each one of those entries specifically cites the Reapers' numerical advantage as the major contributor to their strategic victories. Utter numerical dominance, supported by the codex.
Outside that, even running a ballpark estimate on the number of Reaper capital ships based upon the precious little available information in the codex you end up with the conservative estimate of 20,000 Sovereign-class Reapers (one Sovereign-class per cycle, one cycle every 50,000 years, the cycle has existed for at least a billion years) without considering how many Reaper destroyers must exist (which the codex states are more numerous than capital ships). Each one of those can one-shot a dreadnought, four of which must focus fire a Sovereign-class to put it down. Organic species have a hundred dreadnoughts.
Javik says its an advantage. Why can't it be an advantage in the long term.
Javik says so, but you see firsthand how well it works out during Priority: Earth.
It doesn't.
You are completely hand waving how important of an advantage it is. You are just saying, "no its not enough" without good reason.
Will you concede that a conventional victory has at least a small chance of being possible, given these facts?
Absolutely not. The "advantages" you cite are moot and the "facts" you cite fail to grasp basic strategy. The only reason you perceive my dismissal to be "without good reason" is because you either fail to understand what's going on, or refuse to see it. Conventional victory is not possible.
"Throughout the struggle, it was in his logistic inability to maintain his armies in the field that the enemy's fatal weakness lay. Courage his forces had in full measure, but courage was not enough. Reinforcements failed to arrive, weapons, ammunition and food alike ran short, and the dearth of fuel caused their powers of tactical mobility to dwindle to the vanishing point. In the last stages of the campaign they could do little more than wait for the Allied advance to sweep over them."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, British Army Doctrine Publication, Volume 3, Logistics (June 1996) p. 1-2
"Remember the
two conversations with Garrus in which he outright states the turians are taking unacceptable casualties and will be forced to withdraw from Palaven, and later that the turians
were forced to withdraw, anyways? The ones
between the "Miracle at Palaven" and rallying the fleets to Earth? The "ruthless calculus of war" conversations?"
I don't remember Garrus saying that, I have provided you links with my proof, it's only fair that you do the same.
"Did you
read the "Fall of Earth", "Battle for Palaven" and "Fall of Thessia" codex entries? Or are you just engaging in cherry-picking? Each one of those entries specifically cites the Reapers' numerical advantage as the major contributor to their strategic victories. Utter numerical dominance,
supported by the codex.
Outside that, even running a ballpark estimate on the number of Reaper capital ships based upon the precious little available information in the codex you end up with the
conservative estimate of 20,000 Sovereign-class Reapers (one Sovereign-class per cycle, one cycle every 50,000 years, the cycle has existed for at least a billion years) without considering how many Reaper destroyers must exist (which the codex states are more numerous than capital ships). Each one of those can
one-shot a dreadnought, four of which must focus fire a Sovereign-class to put it down. Organic species have a
hundred dreadnoughts."
Ok, let me clarify, because I was a little vague the first time around. I meant to say that do you have any concrete proof that the Reapers
as a whole outnumber the military forces of the different races. It is been said in game that there are billions to the low trillions of different people in the galaxy. They may have only a hundred dreadnoughts, but they might have tens of thousands to the low millions of cruisers, frigates, carriers, and fighters. None of us know for sure. You don't need dreadnoughts to defeat the Reapers.
Since you're so insistant on thinking that I know nothing about strategy, look at it this way. In WWII carriers were demonstrated to be superior to battleships, despite the massive firepower of battleships. Why? Because a few torpedos or bombs from carrier launched planes could destroy them. And just like that battleships went the way of the dinosaur. Now I know, the Reapers are incredibly, but is it reasonable, that enough fighters with disruptor torpedos and cruisers and frigates with thanix cannons and mass drivers, could overwhelm a Sovereign class Reaper.
"Javik says so, but you see firsthand how well it works out during Priority: Earth."
Again it could be an advantage in the long term.
Also, why are you basically completely glossing over my most important fact? This cycle can use the Mass Relays at will. Do you not realize how much of a massive strategic advantage that is? Seriously, I don't understand. You simply said "Well it didn't matter anyways,"
you are completely hand waving the most important strategic advantage the galaxy has ever had. It is something the Reapers have never encountered. Even with complete and utter control of the Mass Relays and complete census data (mentioned in the Vigil video). It still took
400 years to completely wipe out the Protheans. Is it really, really that unreasonable to you that having the Mass Relays available for use is something that can be used as to help win the war? As I've said before, with them you can shuttle resources, troops, and refugees all across the galaxy to force the Reapers into a wild goose chase. They can also be used to perform effective counter attacks and ambushes. They can be used to muster large fleets and send them where they are needed on a moment's notice. As a last resort, they can be used as weapons, extremely powerful weapons that could potentially wipe out
thousands of Reapers at once. Again, the Reapers have never encountered this, so they are bound to make mistakes.
"Throughout the struggle, it was in his logistic inability to maintain his armies in the field that the enemy's fatal weakness lay. Courage his forces had in full measure, but courage was not enough. Reinforcements failed to arrive, weapons, ammunition and food alike ran short, and the dearth of fuel caused their powers of tactical mobility to dwindle to the vanishing point. In the last stages of the campaign they could do little more than wait for the Allied advance to sweep over them."- Dwight D. Eisenhower,
British Army Doctrine Publication, Volume 3, Logistics (June 1996) p. 1-2 And with the use of the mass relays, maintaing a massive army becomes that much easier. And logistics is just as important as courage, as Eisenhower said.
Why do you claim that I know nothing about strategy, when right now I am demonstrating that I am?
Again I'm not really that far away from agreeing with you, I still believe that in the long run that the Reapers would still win, but that's not the point. I believe that a 1% chance is still a chance, however small that may be.
Modifié par elitehunter34, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .
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