1027 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Moirai wrote...
True. Unless you go with the notion that the Crucible had introduced new variables which made it a programming imperative for the Catalyst to offer you those choices.

In essence, It was given no 'choice' in the matter. It had to do so, because It was now effectively programmed to do so.

Yeah but then why or how does the damn thing turn it off? If it's forced to let Shep be able to pick one of those choices why does it just have one of its minions blow it up (since they can do that in a Game Over ending) clearly the Catalyst is the one controlling the Reapers he can make it so they don't attack the Crucible. But he doesn't do that.

Here's my personal take on the Crucible idea.

Someone in some distance previous cycle realised that it was impossible to beat the Reapers conventionally, and that the only way to beat them was to find a way to get back door 'root' access to their control program and change it. Kind of like boarding a speeding locomotive and turning off the power to stop it, rather than just pointlessly throwing stuff in front of it to try to slow it down.

And this makes a lot of sense.

That requires they know what the control ending is and how it works. That would only make sense with the original reaper'd species. And if it was them I'm sure the Catalyst would've said so.

So, the came up with the idea for what became known as the Crucible.

And that is precisely the point of it. It is a massive power source and programming interface to not only reprogram the Reapers core control program, the Catalyst, with alternate functionality, but also to provide the power necessary to enable that proposed new functionality.

The Catalyst isn't giving you these options because they are of It's devising. It is being forced to give you them because you have hacked It to do so.

And you are the first organics to get that far.

It's entirely possible that the original idea may have even come from the original creators of the Catalyst AI, and something that was a last ditch desperate attempt to save future organics from the cycle of destruction that they had inadvertently begun. What we have now is the closest replication of their failsafe fix.

Problem is none of that makes any sense. You can't create something to interact with something if you don't know what that something is, if it exists and how it works. You just can't.

Again why wouldn't starchild say it was created by his creators? It's not like he'd have to give more information than that. And he mentions they only found the Crucible a few cycles ago. That's no where near soon enough for it to have been from the original race.

[frylock23]

Thank You!

I've been posting this on various threads off and on since seeing the EC stuff.

One of my biggest complaints about the original ending is that Star Brat has no credibility at all, and that there is no reason for any logical person to trust anything he says. BioWare could have fixed this easily in the EC. Instead, they doubled down on the Catalyst's crazy and still give him no credibility. There simply is no reason why anyone should trust that anything he tells you is true.

For all you know, you might as well stand in front of the three options and roll a D6 to decide which way you should go. That's as sound a decision making method as trusting Star Brat.

So, in the end, the only sound option left is to do nothing which of course opens up the finger option of Refuse.

[jumpingkaede]

Ryzaki wrote...

Moirai wrote...
True. Unless you go with the notion that the Crucible had introduced new variables which made it a programming imperative for the Catalyst to offer you those choices.

In essence, It was given no 'choice' in the matter. It had to do so, because It was now effectively programmed to do so.

Yeah but then why or how does the damn thing turn it off? If it's forced to let Shep be able to pick one of those choices why does it just have one of its minions blow it up (since they can do that in a Game Over ending) clearly the Catalyst is the one controlling the Reapers he can make it so they don't attack the Crucible. But he doesn't do that.

Not to mention that now  the Starkid throws a hissy fit like a petulant child if you take a shot at him.

He's a hologram!

It's not like the bullet hurts him.

And this is the guy you're trusting when he tells you to suicide because that'll totally turn on the Crucible?

[jumpingkaede]

Xilizhra wrote...

But at the moment you have no way of knowing that and IF the Crucible had turned out to be a Reaper insta-kill and the Starkid (reasonably) did not want his Reapers insta-killed; him telling you to kill yourself instead of activating the Crucible or telling you to BLOW UP the Crucible would be a pretty smart way of getting around that.

I can't quite respond in an intelligent way to this because I haven't made it to the endings yet, but it seems like, if this was the be-all and end-all, there should have been an option for Shepard to just wait around until the Crucible was actually activated, or try to find the "real" way to activate it, instead of just refusing to use it at all. In fact, Refusal only makes sense if Shepard believes that the Catalyst is the only way to use the Crucible, and is telling the truth.

That would've been a pretty tricky ending.

Right now what we have is the Galaxy building  a Crucible but having no idea how to turn it on or activate it.  (Don't look at me, that's the game.)

Then they plug it into the Citadel... somehow.  And then they look at each other and go, "Now what?"

Meanwhile Shepard is in the Citadel and he's bleeding to death.  I assume that the rest of the troops on Earth were all killed because otherwise why aren't they in the Citadel too?  Especially after Harbinger left.  And especially your teammates who were flown off by the traitorous Joker.

So Shepard's dying... I guess.  And a hologram appears and says, "Psst.  I'm the Reapers.  But I'm really tired of all this reaping.  So, you seem like a nice fellow.  Would you mind [shooting this tube part of the Crucible for me]?  When it blows up it'll also kill all the Reapers.  I'd do it myself but you know, whatever.  But please hurry up my Reapers are on the way to destroy the Crucible as we speak."

And Shepard, dying, thinks to himself: "Oh, sure.  Why the f- not pew pew pew BOOM!"

[Moirai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Moirai wrote...
True. Unless you go with the notion that the Crucible had introduced new variables which made it a programming imperative for the Catalyst to offer you those choices.

In essence, It was given no 'choice' in the matter. It had to do so, because It was now effectively programmed to do so.

Yeah but then why or how does the damn thing turn it off? If it's forced to let Shep be able to pick one of those choices why does it just have one of its minions blow it up (since they can do that in a Game Over ending) clearly the Catalyst is the one controlling the Reapers he can make it so they don't attack the Crucible. But he doesn't do that.

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

But, in this scenario, once the Crucible is docked and the Catalyst 'patched', surely a basic and logical part of that patching would be to automatically block the Catalyst from destroying the Crucible.

It's also logical that, knowing that it's a huge power source, the Catalyst will not want to risk damage to Itself in doing so, which makes sense.

Ryzaki wrote...

Moirai wrote...
Here's my personal take on the Crucible idea.

Someone in some distance previous cycle realised that it was impossible to beat the Reapers conventionally, and that the only way to beat them was to find a way to get back door 'root' access to their control program and change it. Kind of like boarding a speeding locomotive and turning off the power to stop it, rather than just pointlessly throwing stuff in front of it to try to slow it down.

And this makes a lot of sense.

That requires they know what the control ending is and how it works. That would only make sense with the original reaper'd species. And if it was them I'm sure the Catalyst would've said so.

See below...

Ryzaki wrote...

Moirai wrote...
So, the came up with the idea for what became known as the Crucible.

And that is precisely the point of it. It is a massive power source and programming interface to not only reprogram the Reapers core control program, the Catalyst, with alternate functionality, but also to provide the power necessary to enable that proposed new functionality.

The Catalyst isn't giving you these options because they are of It's devising. It is being forced to give you them because you have hacked It to do so.

And you are the first organics to get that far.

It's entirely possible that the original idea may have even come from the original creators of the Catalyst AI, and something that was a last ditch desperate attempt to save future organics from the cycle of destruction that they had inadvertently begun. What we have now is the closest replication of their failsafe fix.

Problem is none of that makes any sense. You can't create something to interact with something if you don't know what that something is, if it exists and how it works. You just can't.

Again why wouldn't starchild say it was created by his creators? It's not like he'd have to give more information than that. And he mentions they only found the Crucible a few cycles ago. That's no where near soon enough for it to have been from the original race.

First off, you are making the assumption (well, all we're doing here is making assumptions based on some very bad story writing, so that's fine) that the actual Crucible structure was designed by the originators of the idea (in this case, let's say the Catalyst AI's creators). That is not a given.

All that would have originally been needed to be passed down was a methodology. Power generation designs, programming language, possibly designs of the original AI containment structure, etc...

Subsequent cycles would have then had to not only deduce and identify where that AI containment structure now was (subsequently built into the Citadel by the Reapers), but the overall design necessary to interface with the AI containment.

As for why the Catalyst doesn't tell you who designed the Crucible. Well, writing-wise it's argued away that he doesn't have time to explain. Which is a shame. Thanks BioWare...

However, given, as you say, that its design was only first noted a 'few cycles ago', there's still an open possibility that it's final design was simply based on very old information left by the Catalyst AI's creators. It could have been that the information was found a considerable time ago and that it simply took many cycles to work out what the information was, how to decode it and to understand its purpose, before finalising its design.

We simply don't know and can only unfortunately indulge in this idle speculation.

Modifié par Moirai, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:53 .

[Master_Smurf]

So after spending a huge chunk of your life finding a way to save the Galaxy and sacrificing so much, when offered three ways to end it and save most of whom are left alive, even when you know that if you dont make a decision what WILL happen, when you are already near death yourself, you choose to say **** it - screw everyone down there fighting, I'm just going to sit here and die....

Yeah buddy, that is worse than meta gaming - that is jumping completely out of Shepard into some sort of **** who probably be Udina or some politician, not a soldier defending the existence of everything he/she knows.

[savionen]

Master_Smurf wrote...

So after spending a huge chunk of your life finding a way to save the Galaxy and sacrificing so much, when offered three ways to end it and save most of whom are left alive, even when you know that if you dont make a decision what WILL happen, when you are already near death yourself, you choose to say **** it - screw everyone down there fighting, I'm just going to sit here and die....

Yeah buddy, that is worse than meta gaming - that is jumping completely out of Shepard into some sort of **** who probably be Udina or some politician, not a soldier defending the existence of everything he/she knows.

Because that's totally what happens when you pick Rejection without meta.

[Ryzaki]

Moirai wrote...

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

But, in this scenario, once the Crucible is docked and the Catalyst 'patched', surely a basic and logical part of that patching would be to automatically block the Catalyst from destroying the Crucible.

It's also logical that, knowing that it's a huge power source, the Catalyst will not want to risk damage to Itself in doing so, which makes sense.

He can turn the thing off. He can do so and leave Shep bleeding out clueless. He losses nothing by doing so.

This is assuming whoever made that patch was fully aware of the Catalyst and how he worked. Something that if no one ever met him...would only be achievable by the species who created him.

Huh? Not even the catalyst's reapers can destroy the crucible just fine. Take too long making a decision or walk towards the elevator.

Moirai wrote...
First off, you are making the assumption (well, all we're doing here is making assumptions based on some very bad story writing, so that's fine) that the actual Crucible structure was designed by the originators of the idea (in this case, let's say the Catalyst AI's creators). That is not a given.

If it wasn't then it makes less sense not more. This means that a race made a weapon for something they're not aware of and have no idea of how it works.

All that would have originally been needed to be passed down was a methodology. Power generation designs, programming language, possibly designs of the original AI containment structure, etc...

And the original designers of the Catalyst still would've needed to pass the vast majority of the plans down. Given how utterly rare it was for anything that wasn't ordinary Reaper tech to be passed down (the Prothean beacons were more of a fluke than anything) I highly doubt starbrat would've let his creators pass down something that could destroy them (remember each cycle it's harder and harder to find things left behind. Not to mention...why wouldn't the previous races know what the Catalyst was in that scenario? They know it's name but not it's function?) Plus they would've needed to have most of the crucible designed as well. (Or at least have it so it's main function was achieveable with strictly the blueprints they were working with).

Subsequent cycles would have then had to not only deduce and identify where that AI containment structure now was (subsequently built into the Citadel by the Reapers), but the overall design necessary to interface with the AI containment.

As for why the Catalyst doesn't tell you who originated the idea of the Crucible. Well, writing-wise it's argued away that he doesn't have time to explain. Which is a shame. Thanks BioWare...

However, given, as you say, that its design was only first noted a 'few cycles ago', there's still an open possibility that it's final design was simply based on very old information left by the Catalyst AI's creators. It could have been that the information was found a considerable time ago and that it simply took many cycles to work out what the information was, how to decode it and to understand its purpose.

We simply don't know and can only unfortunately indulge in this idle speculation.

And still build something they barely comprehended. The original race would've had to have a majority of the plans already ready. That's the only way it could've worked since every cycle following that? Didn't know WTF they were building other than a superweapon. They didn't know what it was going to do other than being a weapon to take out the Reapers (if they had known there's little to no reason for them not to mention that along with the blueprints). And yeah he said it was found only a few cycles ago...he's been working for eons. Each cycle is roughly 50k years.

Writing wise is no excuse. He tells you about his creators. He could simply say "My creators did. But you do not know them and it's pointless to say more." there. Said and no time wasted. Hell the crucible plans could be part of his "they did not approve spiel. "They did not approve, going so far as to create the Crucible in a doomed effort to stop me." there's plenty of lines that could include that. Him never saying that to me highly suggests his creators aren't the ones who made it. And if it wasn't his creators...it becomes utterly ridculous.

Though yes speculation everywhere. Ugh.

[Moirai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Moirai wrote...

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

But, in this scenario, once the Crucible is docked and the Catalyst 'patched', surely a basic and logical part of that patching would be to automatically block the Catalyst from destroying the Crucible.

It's also logical that, knowing that it's a huge power source, the Catalyst will not want to risk damage to Itself in doing so, which makes sense.

He can turn the thing off. He can do so and leave Shep bleeding out clueless. He losses nothing by doing so.

This is assuming whoever made that patch was fully aware of the Catalyst and how he worked. Something that if no one ever met him...would only be achievable by the species who created him.

Huh? Not even the catalyst's reapers can destroy the crucible just fine. Take too long making a decision or walk towards the elevator.

Moirai wrote...
First off, you are making the assumption (well, all we're doing here is making assumptions based on some very bad story writing, so that's fine) that the actual Crucible structure was designed by the originators of the idea (in this case, let's say the Catalyst AI's creators). That is not a given.

If it wasn't then it makes less sense not more. This means that a race made a weapon for something they're not aware of and have no idea of how it works.

All that would have originally been needed to be passed down was a methodology. Power generation designs, programming language, possibly designs of the original AI containment structure, etc...

And the original designers of the Catalyst still would've needed to pass the vast majority of the plans down. Given how utterly rare it was for anything that wasn't ordinary Reaper tech to be passed down (the Prothean beacons were more of a fluke than anything) I highly doubt starbrat would've let his creators pass down something that could destroy them (remember each cycle it's harder and harder to find things left behind. Not to mention...why wouldn't the previous races know what the Catalyst was in that scenario? They know it's name but not it's function?) Plus they would've needed to have most of the crucible designed as well. (Or at least have it so it's main function was achieveable with strictly the blueprints they were working with).

Subsequent cycles would have then had to not only deduce and identify where that AI containment structure now was (subsequently built into the Citadel by the Reapers), but the overall design necessary to interface with the AI containment.

As for why the Catalyst doesn't tell you who originated the idea of the Crucible. Well, writing-wise it's argued away that he doesn't have time to explain. Which is a shame. Thanks BioWare...

However, given, as you say, that its design was only first noted a 'few cycles ago', there's still an open possibility that it's final design was simply based on very old information left by the Catalyst AI's creators. It could have been that the information was found a considerable time ago and that it simply took many cycles to work out what the information was, how to decode it and to understand its purpose.

We simply don't know and can only unfortunately indulge in this idle speculation.

And still build something they barely comprehended. The original race would've had to have a majority of the plans already ready. That's the only way it could've worked since every cycle following that? Didn't know WTF they were building other than a superweapon. They didn't know what it was going to do other than being a weapon to take out the Reapers (if they had known there's little to no reason for them not to mention that along with the blueprints). And yeah he said it was found only a few cycles ago...he's been working for eons. Each cycle is roughly 50k years.

Writing wise is no excuse. He tells you about his creators. He could simply say "My creators did. But you do not know them and it's pointless to say more." there. Said and no time wasted. Hell the crucible plans could be part of his "they did not approve spiel. "They did not approve, going so far as to create the Crucible in a doomed effort to stop me." there's plenty of lines that could include that. Him never saying that to me highly suggests his creators aren't the ones who made it. And if it wasn't his creators...it becomes utterly ridculous.

Though yes speculation everywhere. Ugh.

I think I'll just stop here. I'm purely speculating, for a bit of fun, based on some pretty lousy writing, in an attempt to try to put some logical spin on the ending events.

However, other than just dismissing anything I postulate with personal doubt, you don't bother to attempt to give any alternate matching explanation yourself.

My apologies if that sounds a little abrupt, but that sort of discussion gets a bit boring...

[Ryzaki]

The alternate explanation is simply that it's lousy contrived writing.

But by all means. I don't mind stopping.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[lillitheris]

N-uh.

[Moirai]

Ryzaki wrote...

The alternate explanation is simply that it's lousy contrived writing.

But by all means. I don't mind stopping.

*chuckles*

Well, okay... With that viewpoint I'm surprised you even bothered engaging me in any further discussion on the point.

After all, we both know it's crap writing. I'm just trying to enjoy a bit of speculation.

[DarthSliver]

Ryzaki wrote...


Writing wise is no excuse. He tells you about his creators. He could simply say "My creators did. But you do not know them and it's pointless to say more." there. Said and no time wasted. Hell the crucible plans could be part of his "they did not approve spiel. "They did not approve, going so far as to create the Crucible in a doomed effort to stop me." there's plenty of lines that could include that. Him never saying that to me highly suggests his creators aren't the ones who made it. And if it wasn't his creators...it becomes utterly ridculous.

Though yes speculation everywhere. Ugh.

Id say your on to something, I got the impression the Catalyst creators were like WTF when it decided to start gooing them into the first Reaper. Pretty much the Creators didnt have time to think before they were gooed into a Reaper or several Reapers we gotta imagine the first Polulations the Cycles started on had to of have a huge count. Not to mention the Catalyst probably used a full Synthetic army when it first started.  

[DarthSliver]

Moirai wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The alternate explanation is simply that it's lousy contrived writing.

But by all means. I don't mind stopping.

*chuckles*

Well, okay... With that viewpoint I'm surprised you even bothered engaging me in any further discussion on the point.

After all, we both know it's crap writing. I'm just trying to enjoy a bit of speculation.

Thats forsure thats why the next Bioware game will go off the merits like i do with every other game, cant trust games anymore just because they have Bioware on them.

[frylock23]

Master_Smurf wrote...

So after spending a huge chunk of your life finding a way to save the Galaxy and sacrificing so much, when offered three ways to end it and save most of whom are left alive, even when you know that if you dont make a decision what WILL happen, when you are already near death yourself, you choose to say **** it - screw everyone down there fighting, I'm just going to sit here and die....

Yeah buddy, that is worse than meta gaming - that is jumping completely out of Shepard into some sort of **** who probably be Udina or some politician, not a soldier defending the existence of everything he/she knows.

Explain to me where you have any way of knowing that any of those three options do what Star Brat says they do? You don't. You have no guarantee they do anything at all. For all you know, the Catalyst just told you how to destroy the Crucible dooming everyone in this cycle. He might have told you truthfully about the three options, but neglected to tell you which switch flipped which option or vice versa.

BioWare did nothing to establish the Star Brat's credibility. They gave you no reason to believe anything he tells you is true.

[Master_Smurf]

frylock - do you believe Sovereign or Harbinger or Vigil or Thessia AI - who do you believe???

It seems you guys just want to find every near plot hole - is this how you watch all movies, read all books and play all games.

Why did Frodo decide to go on a journey to a place he never knew to throw a ring into a volcano which may or may not destroy it? Why din Gandalf believe the writing about that ring?

It could have been scribbled by a mindless fool or just someone passing the time.

The Catalyst say what he is and you can ask him about what he is and the choices you can make. Believe it or turn off the game.

[frylock23]

Master_Smurf wrote...

frylock - do you believe Sovereign or Harbinger or Vigil or Thessia AI - who do you believe???

It seems you guys just want to find every near plot hole - is this how you watch all movies, read all books and play all games.

Why did Frodo decide to go on a journey to a place he never knew to throw a ring into a volcano which may or may not destroy it? Why din Gandalf believe the writing about that ring?

It could have been scribbled by a mindless fool or just someone passing the time.

The Catalyst say what he is and you can ask him about what he is and the choices you can make. Believe it or turn off the game.

The Star Child has no credibility, and everything BioWare does with him undermines him as a credible source. He appears in the last few minutes of the game with no warning. He freely admits to being the overlord of your enemies making him your main adversary. He explains how he arrived at the solution. He explains that he turned on his creators making them into the first Reaper against their will. He tells you that a TS is inevitable and that all organics will go extinct but it has never happened and he offers no proof to back his assertion.

At this point, any logical person has to come to the conclusion that he's insane and unreliable.

Now he's telling you what the Crucible does.

How does he have any credibility? Why would you trust him? The clear answer is that you can't. If you're being honest with yourself, you can't trust that any of the options do what he says they will or are what he says they are. So, that leaves you with refuse.

As to Frodo and Gandalf.

Frodo goes on the journey because Gandalf asks him to. Gandalf is a man of great wisdom this has been established through Bilbo's accounts and Frodo's own history with Gandalf. Frodo trusts what Gandalf says because Gandalf has some credibility with Frodo.

Gandalf believed the writing about the ring because Gandalf is an educated man who knows how to spot authenticity in a document. However, Gandalf would not have gone looking had he not noticed Bilbo's odd behvior and some other clues that made him go researching. Of course, Gandalf still tested the ring when he returned to Frodo's hobbit hole just to be sure. But, when you think someone you know and care about might have an artifact of the greatest evil ever in their possession, you do test it to make sure.

[Dauchon]

So say the Reapers(cause all this is just speculation) decide to build a bigger army before the next cycle ensuring that no other cycle could beat them conventionally if any ever could.
Should the next cycle after using Liaras Black Box to build the Crucible also reject the Star Child when given the 3 options, ensuring their defeat and then for all cycles then on to basically say if we can't beat them conventionally which will in all likelihood never happen to just give up to the Reapers.

Congratulations you have just ensured Reaper Dominance forever. Hopefully the next cycle will be willing to Stand up where your Shepard laid down and make a choice.

[Master_Smurf]

He isnt a star child unless you are still pms-ing after the EC - he is an AI - all the other AI in the game as well as the Reapers are taken at their word so why do you have an issue now?

You know ever since the first game that the Citadel is a key and you know about the keepers etc.

After EC you can talk to the Catalyst so you have chosen not to believe - simple dont believe anyone in the whole trilogy and be like Council.

The LOTR was a quick throw out - not to pick it apart even though Gandalf had one scrap of writing to go on and Sauron had fooled everyone before, there is no way to know throwing the ring in Mt Doom will work. - The main point is, you have to take some elements on faith/face value to make any story work.

Yes BW did a poor job in introducing Catalyst as an AI - you zooming to he cant be trusted is your personal choice but not a given fact.

[Flamewielder]

Let's see... This is what I know, as Shepard.

I'm bleeding fast, barely managing to haul my stumbling behind anywhere at a crawl. I only have a handgun and half of my armor and I've been injured enough to know I won't last much longer without medical help. Three Husks and a Marauder almost got me before the beam; a Brute could squash me into a nice smear on that shiny Citadel floor...

The Crucible didn't fire for some reason, and I'm not a scientist... I'm just the only human being alive on the Crucible. I have no clue what I should do and no one knows exactly how this Crucible should work, but this AI/VI starkid seems to know what can be done.

OK, it admits to creating the Reapers as a "solution" to some percieved problem... bla, bla, bla. My fleets are losing out there, regardless of how well-prepared we were, it's only a matter of time before they are wiped out and we go the way the Proteans and dinosaurs did.

The Crucible failed to activate, so I listen to this AI/VI, hoping to get a clue as to how to get the friggin' thing workin'. I'm dizzy from bloodloss and short of patience... I don't have time for pondering the philosophical/ethical ramifications of my chosen option but I know action is bound to be preferable to inaction; I'm a friggin' soldier, not a philosopher.

Destroy... take the Reapers out along with my synthetic allies... the Galaxy's saved and free to screw it up without further interference. I'm sure the Geth would object to my volunteering them as the sacrificial lambs but hey, sh*t happens... and Legion did say the "true" Geth saw independent evolution as a superior option to being "uplifted" along path imposed by some other species. Safest and clearest option of the three lousy ones open to me, even knowing they are all suspect.

If one opposes Synthesis because it "forces" cyberization upon all organic life, one should also oppose "forcing" death upon all organic intelligences by refusing to try any of the options put forward by what appears to be Shepard's only hope to salvage something out of this failed Crucible gimmick. And that's entirely in-game reasoning, with no meta-gaming involved.

[Ryzaki]

Moirai wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The alternate explanation is simply that it's lousy contrived writing.

But by all means. I don't mind stopping.

*chuckles*

Well, okay... With that viewpoint I'm surprised you even bothered engaging me in any further discussion on the point.

After all, we both know it's crap writing. I'm just trying to enjoy a bit of speculation.

Nostalgia. I loved debating ME2 and ME1. Most of ME3 I find to be trite badly written nonsencial crap though. I hope someone proves me wrong but maybe I'm too jaded I keep finding holes to pick. And if I can't find enough holes I debate others so they can give me more holes to pick.

My speculation enjoyment is sadly all gone.

[Ryzaki]

DarthSliver wrote...
Id say your on to something, I got the impression the Catalyst creators were like WTF when it decided to start gooing them into the first Reaper. Pretty much the Creators didnt have time to think before they were gooed into a Reaper or several Reapers we gotta imagine the first Polulations the Cycles started on had to of have a huge count. Not to mention the Catalyst probably used a full Synthetic army when it first started.  

Yeah not that his creators were the sharpest knives in the rack. "Well...we're having problems with synthetics so clearly the good idea is to make more synthetics!" It's almost on the same facepalm level as the Original endings Yo dawg I heard you don't want to be killed by Synthetics so I made an army of different synthetics to kill you every 50K years! 

Just wut? 

No wonder the Catalyst is so damn bonkers. His creators weren't much better.

[inversevideo]

Master_Smurf wrote...

So after spending a huge chunk of your life finding a way to save the Galaxy and sacrificing so much, when offered three ways to end it and save most of whom are left alive, even when you know that if you dont make a decision what WILL happen, when you are already near death yourself, you choose to say **** it - screw everyone down there fighting, I'm just going to sit here and die....

Yeah buddy, that is worse than meta gaming - that is jumping completely out of Shepard into some sort of **** who probably be Udina or some politician, not a soldier defending the existence of everything he/she knows.

Believe me, I see what your saying, but I have to disagree with you.
And truth be told, I would only ever pick destoy.

But what the OP, Angry One, has asked is whether or not rejection is the only choice if you do not meta-game?
If I answer honestly, then I have to agree that rejection is the only choice.

I apologize, in advance for the long wall of text.

I get into role-playing Shepard, and basing my choices on what I believe my Shepard (by extension me) would do in that situation.  

One of the things Bioware told us, via our encouters with EDI and Legion, is that AI can lie.

I was not positive in my response to Legion hiding what he was doing from me (Shep). 
I questioned him on maintaining the Reaper upgrades and hiding that. I questioned him on his unilateral decision to down load the Geth we deleted from the base on Ranoch to mobile platforms without telling me. This was the same Legion that could not decide whether to blow up or rewrite the heretics, yet here he is, a result no doubt of Reaper upgrades, deciding to keep those upgrades and deciding to activate platforms without my knowledge.

So Shep questioins Legion and she aks how we got here, to a point with no trust, and reminds him that he lied to her twice and informs  him that the Geth are better than that, to which he hangs his head and replies 'clearly we are not'.

Cut to my conversations with EDI who details how she and Joker escaped from drydock 'custody.
Joker tells Shep she deceived the guards, into thinking she was a VI and got Jeff aboard by telling the guards she was programmed only to respond to Jeff.  To which Shep asks ' Wait, AI can LIE?' , and EDI responds that with her blocks removed she could engage in deception (paraphrase).  

Now for me, when Shep finally gets to meet CATY, she already has a lot to think about, for one thing, she has been to Sactuary and TIMS base, seen the footage, and is aware that TIMS power allows him to control indoctrinated forces. So how did TIM control her and Anderson?  While she has to be pondering that CATY appears, in the form of a dead kid. WHOA! Think about that for a moment.  Where did CATY get that image and why is he using it with Shepard?  This is the kid Shep could not save. Now there are only two answers and neither of them is good.

Either CATY was always in Sheps head, from the moment she was in Vancouver, and appeared as the 'kid', or CATY has access to Sheps mind, and pulled that image from her thoughts.  Why?  The only reason would be to throw Shep off guard, some thought-fu, to go along with the tongue-fu. To make matters worse CATY informs Shep that the Citadel is it's home. Holy hell! Shep is inside a Reaper! By extension, the Citidel is a Reaper and CATY is the AI .

CATY could appear to Shep as anything, but chose the image of a kid she could not save, and for whom she has been having nightmares; first that she could not save the child, by extension humanity, then that both she and the child passivley go into the flames.  And this is who CATY chooses to appear to Shep as.

Then CATY tells Shep we kill ...err ..harvest organics to help them ascend, in order to make way for the younger races, and avoid a technological apocalypse where machines would come into their own and harvest ...err ..kill organics.  Reapers are not your enemy, they are cosmic gardeners. Just weeding..err tending the garden until harvest time.

Finally you are asked to make one of three choices, all of which will activate the crucible:

   Walk into the light.  Your technological and bilogical distinctiveness will be assimilated to service us.
   Grab the glowing electrodes, the experience is killer, and you will lose your soul, but we will be yours.
   Shoot that red machine thingy in the corner, the explosion will turn on the crucible and destroy us 

Oh, and by the way, whatever you choose, the mass relays will be a bit unusable for a span, sorry that, can't be helped, do be a good lass and decide.

Now, do you have any reason to believe anything this crazy malfunctioning AI tells you?
Especially based on what you have been through and know of the Reapers, i.e that they Reap, and this is Reaping time? 

Why did it spare you and not let you bleed our? Because it needs you to make one of the choices it has laid out, because it cannot choose. Why? Because it is a malfunctioning AI.  To use a technical term, it is bat-guano crazy in the circuits.  You have no way of knowing what any of those choices will do, and no reason to trust the glowing AI.

It's not that refuse is better, since it means death to the cycle, it's just that you are being played by Satan Incarnate and have no reason to go out like that, as a puppet.

See, if this were DA:O and a glowing Child Magister pulled you out of a losing battle, prior to facing the Arch Demon and said...

T'he blight was my solution to the Arcane Apocalypse. Magic users will always rebel against man, and not serve him.  The blight was my way of ensuring against the chaos. '

You have three choices ...

  Control the horde. You will lose everything when you join us, but we will obey you.

  Or, synthesis, everyone will become part darkspawn, it is the ultimate expression of your evolution.
  Wardens are already part darkkspawn, could you imagine your life without the taint?

  Or you can destroy us. But anyone remotely connected to us, like wardens will die.

Oh, and the fade will be destroyed.

Would folks tend to believe the Child Magister? This is a Magister, no?  Is there any example of a Magister doing what is good for the many, who are not Magisters?

Well, CATY is a Reaper, whom you have only known for 10 minutes, fifteen at the outside.
Why would you suddenly have trust and sympathy for this devil?

 

Modifié par inversevideo, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:20 .

[inversevideo]

[killed - doulble post

Modifié par inversevideo, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .

[Grimwick]

Thank goodness this thread was resurrected.

KotorEffect3 needs a place where he can argue with people on topic for once.