Aller au contenu

Photo

The Truth: The Reapers want Shepard to succeed.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
191 réponses à ce sujet

#1
LordRaptor

LordRaptor
  • Members
  • 489 messages
First let me explain by analyzing the Reapers, or what we know of them.  Basically each Reaper is the combined genetic material of an entire preserved species, built of their thoughts, emotions and DNA.  Yet no matter the species, or design these constructs turn out to be members of an advanced homicidal horde, bent on one goal, maintaining the cycle.

This is because though the Reapers are advanced beyond our comprehension they are still slaves to their programming.  The Catalyst speaks of this when it mentions the solution.  Sovereign, Harbinger, the Destroyer all speak of this when they mention "the cycle cannot be broken".  This means they cannot deviate from their programming, regardless of their individual sentience.

The extended cut affirmed what I had suspected from the beginning.  The ending is far to easy for Shepard.  Many other naysayers and myself have pointed this fact out in numerous threads how the Reapers literally, hold Shepard's hand and guides him/her through the conflict though on multiple occasions, when it is blatantly clear they have won.  However, I and other detractors of this fact have been viewing it from the wrong perspective.  We have been viewing the Reapers as willing villains as they were presented in ME1 and ME2, their motivations completely malicious in nature.  The Reapers of ME3 are AI constructs fulfilling a base programming, nothing more...except...

They no longer wish to fulfill that programming.  Consider this; why would the combined consciousness of entire species, all throughout eons of time be willing to repetitively commit mass genocide without even one rebelling?  Unless they are incapable of rebelling.  "The cycle cannot be broken."  In ME1 Shepard impresses Sovereign with his/her skill, wit, cunning and unfaltering morality (whether para or ren).  In ME2 Shepard impresses Harbinger with the same and the Reapers even try to recover Shepard's dead body.  We all assume for nefarious purposes.  But it's not.  The Reapers cannot break their own programming, they cannot break the cycle, and neither can the Catalyst.  It says so itself, it cannot change it's solution.

Therefore the Reapers need Shepard to do it.  Proof that they guide Shepard below:

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that "Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully, they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.

Next we have the extended cut moment that fleshes this Reaper act of rebellion so exquisitely.  Just before firing in Shepard's general viscinity.  Harbinger literally musters up the ability to say "save us", before firing.  This act of rebelliion on Harbinger's part is extremely difficult.

Once inside the Citadel and after the confrontation with TIM Shepard has lost...completely.  Shepard is passed out and dying without activating the Crucible.  At this point the cycle will continue unimpeded.  Yet the Catalyst willingly raises Shepard up to the decision platform.  The collective intelligence of ALL REAPERS gives Shepard a chance to choose how to stop them.  This is the most obvious act of rebellion against its programming.

Then the Catalyst spells out 3 options, even going so far as to willingly option Reaper destruction because even the uncertainty of final death is better to the Catalyst than continuing with the cycle and endless slaughter.  This also explains the game breaking color switch of blue and red on control and destroy.  The Catalyst would have to be using out of game knowledge to know the player is associating these colors with paragon or renegade choices.  It has no validity in game.  This is a design choice by Bioware to paint destroy as unfortunately renegade because it is the most selfish and narrow minded where you save the least lives (which includes Reapers). 

Remember Reapers are sentient ships made up the combined matter of entire species...there is no argument that could be logically made that EVERY species harvested by the Reapers is inherently evil and prone to willingly continuing with the cycle.

Skipping my favorite evidence for the moment, I note the Synthesis ending first.  In this ending the cycle is broken.  The Crucible fires and the programming of the Reapers is changed through understanding.  This allows the Reapers to act on their own nature and HELP rebuild the galaxy.  In Synthesis the Reapers are not being ordered by a God Emperor Shepard to rebuild, they CHOOSE to rebuild because they are freed from the programming lock of the cycle and can now act upon their nature...the nature of entire sentient species which would be benevolent in most cases.

My favorite evidence is the Catalyst's response to Shepard choosing Reject.  There can be no more definitive proof that the Reapers allowed Shepard to reach the decision room than this.  The Catalyst reacts to Shepard's voice out of anger and walks away, objectively stating "the cycle continues" because the Reapers' programming did not change.  They gave Shepard the chance to break the cycle and he/she chooses not to.  Frustrated that the Reapers' hope is shattered the Catalyst spouts "so be it" dropping the friendly facade it took to appeal to Shepard.  The Catalyst is akin to all Reapers, but in hopes Shepard would react more favorably to a friendly face/persona the Catalyst took the form of a child.  In this form Shepard would hopefully at least hear the Catalyst's explanations and not abjectly refuse the doom and gloom voice of a Reaper saying "pick your ending".

There is plenty of evidence throughout the mass effect series to point to the fact the Reapers see Shepard as a possible savior.  This is is the truth of Mass Effect's ending:

"Shepard is not only saving the galaxy.  Shepard is also unknowingly saving the Reapers."


Edit:  The argument has risen that the Catalyst is capable of changing it's own programming because it did so once before.  Actually it did not:


Catalyst: "I was first created to oversee the relations between Synthetic and Organic life, to establish a connection, but our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

The "our" the Catalyst is referring to is it's designers.  The Reapers do not exist at this point.  It is still acting within it's programming with the Reaper Solution.

The solution still acts within the Catalyst's programming.  From the logical, rational, objective viewpoint of an AI devoid of emotion (at the time, before it became the combined consciousness of the Reapers and gained a conscience) the cycle is a valid solution and the "desires" of the designers is irrelevant.  Whether or not they wish to be made into the solution does not demean the solutions relevance to a completely logic based entity.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .


#2
SC0TTYD00

SC0TTYD00
  • Members
  • 187 messages
Well, its a fine theory Mr Ventura. but what has it got to do with me?

J/k

Really like this idea, fits in nicely with upcoming leviathan dlc theory.

#3
Tatz

Tatz
  • Members
  • 49 messages
I... actually really, really like this interpretation. Kudos to you for putting this to words, good sir!

#4
Hudathan

Hudathan
  • Members
  • 2 144 messages
I don't know about "save us" since it sounded like gibberish to me, but stuff like this is fun to think about.

#5
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages
The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread

#6
LordRaptor

LordRaptor
  • Members
  • 489 messages

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


I will go back and rewatch the scene, but as far as I interpreted it when the Catalyst says "we" it is referring to it and its designers, as no Reapers exist at that point.  The Catalyst's designers changed it's programming in the  way I interpreted it.  They saw that conflict would inevitably arise between synthetics and organics so they reprogrammed the Catalyst to come up with a solution to prevent this, and therefore it designed the cycle.  Unfortunately the designers did not foresee that change in programming would result in their ascension to a Reaper form.

#7
Tatz

Tatz
  • Members
  • 49 messages

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


Might just be because I've only played through EC once, but I don't recall anything that points directly to the Catalyst changing its own programming - I actually kind of assumed that it was shackled as EDI was, and had been the whole time.

#8
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

JustinElenbaas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


I will go back and rewatch the scene, but as far as I interpreted it when the Catalyst says "we" it is referring to it and its designers, as no Reapers exist at that point.  The Catalyst's designers changed it's programming in the  way I interpreted it.  They saw that conflict would inevitably arise between synthetics and organics so they reprogrammed the Catalyst to come up with a solution to prevent this, and therefore it designed the cycle.  Unfortunately the designers did not foresee that change in programming would result in their ascension to a Reaper form.


The creators would have to be complete imbeciles to start this cycle and not realise they would count as part of it.
The Catalyst says that it determined this course of action on it's own, not with imput from it's creators.

#9
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread

No it didn't. It's trapped in it own programing. Understand what is going on.

#10
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

The Angry One wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


I will go back and rewatch the scene, but as far as I interpreted it when the Catalyst says "we" it is referring to it and its designers, as no Reapers exist at that point.  The Catalyst's designers changed it's programming in the  way I interpreted it.  They saw that conflict would inevitably arise between synthetics and organics so they reprogrammed the Catalyst to come up with a solution to prevent this, and therefore it designed the cycle.  Unfortunately the designers did not foresee that change in programming would result in their ascension to a Reaper form.


The creators would have to be complete imbeciles to start this cycle and not realise they would count as part of it.
The Catalyst says that it determined this course of action on it's own, not with imput from it's creators.

It did what it did based on it's programing. It did what it's creators wanted it to do. Th eproblem is it creators never imation the salution it would find be this horrible.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:23 .


#11
xsdob

xsdob
  • Members
  • 8 575 messages
I like this interpretation better than the angry ones, therefore I will not believe TAO and instead hold this as the fannon.

Because frankly, I heard harbinger say "Save us" as well.

Modifié par xsdob, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:24 .


#12
LordRaptor

LordRaptor
  • Members
  • 489 messages

The Angry One wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


I will go back and rewatch the scene, but as far as I interpreted it when the Catalyst says "we" it is referring to it and its designers, as no Reapers exist at that point.  The Catalyst's designers changed it's programming in the  way I interpreted it.  They saw that conflict would inevitably arise between synthetics and organics so they reprogrammed the Catalyst to come up with a solution to prevent this, and therefore it designed the cycle.  Unfortunately the designers did not foresee that change in programming would result in their ascension to a Reaper form.


The creators would have to be complete imbeciles to start this cycle and not realise they would count as part of it.
The Catalyst says that it determined this course of action on it's own, not with imput from it's creators.


As I understand it the designers programmed the Catalyst to "find a solution" to the problem because they could not discover one.  Unfortunately it was not the "solution" they hoped for.  The Catalyst tells Shepard "if there is to be a new solution you must act."  It is incapable of changing its programming.

#13
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread

No it didn't. It's trapped in it own programing. Understand what is going on.


Evidence please.

#14
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

xsdob wrote...

I like this interpretation better than the angry ones, therefore I will not believe TAO and instead hold this as the fannon.

Because frankly, I heard harbinger say "Save us" as well.


By all means, if you want headcanon to override the obvious, don't let me stop you.

JustinElenbaas wrote...

As I understand it the designers
programmed the Catalyst to "find a solution" to the problem because they
could not discover one.  Unfortunately it was not the "solution" they
hoped for.  The Catalyst tells Shepard "if there is to be a new solution
you must act."  It is incapable of changing its programming.


The Catalyst was created to achieve peace by having synthetics and organics come to a mutual understanding.
Because it's efforts always ended in conflict, it came up with a NEW solution and went directly AGAINST it's creator's intentions.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .


#15
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

xsdob wrote...

I like this interpretation better than the angry ones, therefore I will not believe TAO and instead hold this as the fannon.

Because frankly, I heard harbinger say "Save us" as well.

That becuase she clearly is wrong. 
And it's statement....I heard Serve us.

#16
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

That becuase she clearly is wrong.


Evidence, examples. As I have given.

And it's statement....I heard Serve us.


You know what he said? HE SAID GIBBERISH. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.
To bring forth speculations.

#17
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages

The Angry One wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread


I will go back and rewatch the scene, but as far as I interpreted it when the Catalyst says "we" it is referring to it and its designers, as no Reapers exist at that point.  The Catalyst's designers changed it's programming in the  way I interpreted it.  They saw that conflict would inevitably arise between synthetics and organics so they reprogrammed the Catalyst to come up with a solution to prevent this, and therefore it designed the cycle.  Unfortunately the designers did not foresee that change in programming would result in their ascension to a Reaper form.


The creators would have to be complete imbeciles to start this cycle and not realise they would count as part of it.
The Catalyst says that it determined this course of action on it's own, not with imput from it's creators.



The creators were always complete imbeciles.


I mean the fact that they created an AI to solve tech singularity is stupidity at its finest.

#18
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst changed it's directives once.
Why can't it do it again?

/thread

No it didn't. It's trapped in it own programing. Understand what is going on.


Evidence please.

The entire comment from the catalyst expline what he and the reapers are and the fact he ask you to pick a new salution.

#19
xsdob

xsdob
  • Members
  • 8 575 messages
Oh no, I ignored your head cannon about my choice being wrong so that you can keep feeling angry, how terrifyingly evil of me.

Most of your evidence comes off as head-cannon as well angry one, just you get much more hostile to those who challenge it with their own.

#20
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages
I posted my interpretations of why the Catalyst helps Shepard, but I didn't really get much replies to it. So maybe I'll have better luck in this thread:

There are two different ways to interpret why the Catalyst can be trusted (without meta-gaming)

1) The Catalyst underestimated the organics, realizing that his solution might not be as flawless as he thinks it is. Even if he does trick Shepard and wins this cycle, organics are very savvy at containing and storing information for future cycles. Eventually a cycle will build a new and improved Crucible, one that might not even need the Catalyst's help to be deployed. With that said, the Catalyst, knowing that the cycle will inevitably end, takes his chances and gives the ball to Shepard. If he helps Shepard, there is a better chance that he could use the Crucible to replace his solution with synthesis. "If there is a new solution, you must act." Why doesn't he force synthesis? Same reason Legion asked Shepard to decide the fate of the geth heretics. He needed a new perspective, an organic---one that wasn't indoctrinated to the Reaper's cause (sorry TIM). This is one way to look it at.

2) The Crucible introduces new shackles to the Catalyst's core programming. The Crucible messes with the Catalyst's core programming so that it has to not only guide free-willed organic to where the Crucible can be activated but also explain the Crucible's capabilities in a truthful manner. This explains why the Catalyst elevated Shepard up to the Crucible and also explains why the Catalyst would truthfully tell shepard how to destroy him and his solution. If the Crucible is badly damaged and or poorly constructed (AKA low EMS), the Catalyst is more reluctant to open up all the pathways to the different endings. This doesn't mean that the Catalyst will do anything Shepard says. He is still bound by his original programming to stop tech singularity. So if you refuse to use the Crucible, the Catalyst continues the cycle regardless.


I lean towards the first one more, the 2nd seems to be a bit more headcanon-y.

#21
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

MegaSovereign wrote...


The creators were always complete imbeciles.


I mean the fact that they created an AI to solve tech singularity is stupidity at its finest.


Well, they created an AI to make peace with AIs, not solve a singularity.
Which, granted, is idiotic in itself.

dreman9999 wrote...

The entire comment from the catalyst expline what he and the reapers are and the fact he ask you to pick a new salution.


Tells us what? You are not saying anything.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .


#22
LordRaptor

LordRaptor
  • Members
  • 489 messages

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I like this interpretation better than the angry ones, therefore I will not believe TAO and instead hold this as the fannon.

Because frankly, I heard harbinger say "Save us" as well.


By all means, if you want headcanon to override the obvious, don't let me stop you.

JustinElenbaas wrote...

As I understand it the designers
programmed the Catalyst to "find a solution" to the problem because they
could not discover one.  Unfortunately it was not the "solution" they
hoped for.  The Catalyst tells Shepard "if there is to be a new solution
you must act."  It is incapable of changing its programming.


The Catalyst was created to achieve peace by having synthetics and organics come to a mutual understanding.
Because it's efforts always ended in conflict, it came up with a NEW solution and went directly AGAINST it's creator's intentions.


Catalyst:  I was first created to oversee the relations between Synthetic and Organic life, to establish a connection, but our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required.

The "our" the Catalyst is referring to is it's designers.  The Reapers do not exist at this point.  It is still acting within it's programming with the Reaper Solution.

#23
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That becuase she clearly is wrong.


Evidence, examples. As I have given.

And it's statement....I heard Serve us.


You know what he said? HE SAID GIBBERISH. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.
To bring forth speculations.

You haven give one example. You're just state thing like there law. You the only one saying what your say after here what the catalyst said , what does that mean?

#24
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

xsdob wrote...

Oh no, I ignored your head cannon about my choice being wrong so that you can keep feeling angry, how terrifyingly evil of me.

Most of your evidence comes off as head-cannon as well angry one, just you get much more hostile to those who challenge it with their own.


The Catalyst flat out says that, because it's efforts to make peace failed, a *new* solution was required.
That solution being the Reapers. It's creators became the FIRST Reaper AGAINST their will.

And you keep insisting that the Catalyst is following it's original directives?

#25
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Catalyst:  I was first created to oversee the relations between Synthetic and Organic life, to establish a connection, but our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required.

The "our" the Catalyst is referring to is it's designers.  The Reapers do not exist at this point.  It is still acting within it's programming with the Reaper Solution.


Our efforts to make peace. Yes. That would obviously have been a joint effort.
It's new solution however was something it came up with itself, that it's creators did NOT want.