191 réponses à ce sujet

[LordRaptor]

Scalabrine wrote...

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final
AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger
DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge
to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines
it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses
Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the
Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that
"Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully,
they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to
the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and
Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still
fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop
hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's
programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.


Lol then explain to me why Anderson makes it out as well...

You're logic is as flawed as the end writing. Reapers didn't want him to succeed it was just bad writing...

"You have altered the variables" lol **** gtfo, Doesn't matter how much they sugar coat the ending with the EC, it still doesn't make sense. Bioware gave a snake bite victim ice cream instead of the antidote...

Well by the time Shepard enters the beam Harbinger has long since gone...so there is nothing impeding him approaching the beam at that point.  He's nowhere near the beam when Harbinger is present, therefore I do not see how you can claim this is "flawed".  It's actually very obvious.

[dreman9999]

Scalabrine wrote...

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final
AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger
DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge
to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines
it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses
Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the
Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that
"Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully,
they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to
the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and
Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still
fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop
hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's
programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.


Lol then explain to me why Anderson makes it out as well...

You're logic is as flawed as the end writing. Reapers didn't want him to succeed it was just bad writing...

"You have altered the variables" lol **** gtfo, Doesn't matter how much they sugar coat the ending with the EC, it still doesn't make sense. Bioware gave a snake bite victim ice cream instead of the antidote...

I'm sorry. Did you miss part where Anderson said he went in after Shepard?  Didn't Shep go into the beam after harbinger left? That would mean there would be no one there to stop Anderson from going in the beam if Harbinger was gone.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

words

Nothing you've linked disproves a thing I've said, and in fact backs me up.
You refuse to see that the Catalyst decided to change it's goals, due to a change in directives.

The cycle does not ensure peace. It ensures SURVIVAL (according to it's logic).
"Without us, synthetics will destroy all organic life". The creator's directives were to achieve co-existence with synthetics, not survive.

Let me spell it out for you.
Creator directives: Peace at any cost.
Catalyst directives: Survival of base organic life at any cost

Your ever increasing anger only proves that this is yet another Indoctrination Theory.... though judging by your banner that shouldn't surprise me.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 juillet 2012 - 07:23 .

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kendar Fleetfoot wrote...

Can someone create an AI to resolve the conflict on this thread??? 

Any AI  made to give Angry one some understand other then what she  wants to believe is fated to blow up into firy bites out of pure fustration.

In all truth I believe I understand where she is coming from, though I could be wrong.  She is right that this had to pieced together because of how poorly Bioware portrayed it.  The many vagueries of the endings still haunt many people and shadow all theories in doubt.  And in truth she could refute me by simply saying "it's one interpretation of this crap Bioware created." and due to Bioware's unwillingness to take a firm stance on what their endings mean, or what they were going for, and not trying to "prescribe" anything...gag...she would in theory...be right.

For what it's worth I like and believe what you are saying. However as stated only Bioware can definitively state what they were trying to communicate and the reasons for the various pieces  people like yourself have pulled together.

I can't remember who posted it but I agree Bioware should have just given us one ending which destroyed the reapers and in some way using the games mechanics to survive or not.

[Zine2]

The problem with ANY interpretation wherein the Reapers are actually secretly rooting for Shepard to succeed is the fact that it makes all of their actions in the game unnecessary.

You don't need to commit mass genocide to prevent a mass genocide. If they were rooting for Shep, then it only confirms what we've always already known: The Reapers were insane. And they have been canonically proven to be insane after they OMNOMed their own creators.

[dreman9999]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kendar Fleetfoot wrote...

Can someone create an AI to resolve the conflict on this thread??? 

Any AI  made to give Angry one some understand other then what she  wants to believe is fated to blow up into firy bites out of pure fustration.

In all truth I believe I understand where she is coming from, though I could be wrong.  She is right that this had to pieced together because of how poorly Bioware portrayed it.  The many vagueries of the endings still haunt many people and shadow all theories in doubt.  And in truth she could refute me by simply saying "it's one interpretation of this crap Bioware created." and due to Bioware's unwillingness to take a firm stance on what their endings mean, or what they were going for, and not trying to "prescribe" anything...gag...she would in theory...be right.

I'm sorry. But She is the only one on this borsd that think what she thinks happen with the catalyst. If we arefacing wave of people with the samr understanding I would agree but the catalyst bluntly explianed this. BW was ver clear on what hppened to the catalyst. If she didn't get it, it's her fault.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry. Did you miss part where Anderson said he went in after Shepard?  Didn't Shep go into the beam after harbinger left? That would mean there would be no one there to stop Anderson from going in the beam if Harbinger was gone.

So why is Anderson there before Shepard?
Why didn't anyone follow Anderson?
Why would Harbinger leave? If you think it's bound by it's directives then it CAN'T leave.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry. But She is the only one on this borsd that think what she thinks happen with the catalyst. If we arefacing wave of people with the samr understanding I would agree but the catalyst bluntly explianed this. BW was ver clear on what hppened to the catalyst. If she didn't get it, it's her fault.

Oh, you mean like before the EC, BioWare was very clear that Shepard was being indoctrinated?

[dreman9999]

Zine2 wrote...

The problem with ANY interpretation wherein the Reapers are actually secretly rooting for Shepard to succeed is the fact that it makes all of their actions in the game unnecessary.

You don't need to commit mass genocide to prevent a mass genocide. If they were rooting for Shep, then it only confirms what we've always already known:Reapers were insane. And they have been canonically proven to be insane after they OMNOMed their own creators.

But you missing the fact they are stuck being forced to reaper beacuse of there programing. It makes sense if yo think like a machine. Machines do what they are programed to do. If you understand this, thenyou'll understand the reapers have no choice to stop.

[JPN17]

Yeah the reapers definitely wanted Shepard to win. That's why Sovereign ADC of Saren in ME1 and tried to kill Shepard. It's why they sent the collectors to kill Shepard in ME2 and succeeded and after he was brought back they sent the collectors after him/her again. And it's why Harbinger shoots Shepard in ME3. Yup those reapers were just itching for Shepard to wipe them out.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry. But She is the only one on this borsd that think what she thinks happen with the catalyst. If we arefacing wave of people with the samr understanding I would agree but the catalyst bluntly explianed this. BW was ver clear on what hppened to the catalyst. If she didn't get it, it's her fault.

Oh, you mean like before the EC, BioWare was very clear that Shepard was being indoctrinated?

Not like ec proves that he's not. EC just proved that it all was not a dream. But thats besides the point. The only one that think the catalyst broke his programing is you and no hints of that was ever given. 

[Jadebaby]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Scalabrine wrote...

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final
AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger
DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge
to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines
it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses
Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the
Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that
"Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully,
they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to
the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and
Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still
fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop
hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's
programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.


Lol then explain to me why Anderson makes it out as well...

You're logic is as flawed as the end writing. Reapers didn't want him to succeed it was just bad writing...

"You have altered the variables" lol **** gtfo, Doesn't matter how much they sugar coat the ending with the EC, it still doesn't make sense. Bioware gave a snake bite victim ice cream instead of the antidote...

Well by the time Shepard enters the beam Harbinger has long since gone...so there is nothing impeding him approaching the beam at that point.  He's nowhere near the beam when Harbinger is present, therefore I do not see how you can claim this is "flawed".  It's actually very obvious.

If what you said is true, then they wouldn't have got the 3 husks and marauder shields to attack Shepard.

[LordRaptor]

Zine2 wrote...

The problem with ANY interpretation wherein the Reapers are actually secretly rooting for Shepard to succeed is the fact that it makes all of their actions in the game unnecessary.

You don't need to commit mass genocide to prevent a mass genocide. If they were rooting for Shep, then it only confirms what we've always already known: The Reapers were insane. And they have been canonically proven to be insane after they OMNOMed their own creators.

Throughout the game they are fulfilling their programming.  They are forced to do this beyond choice.  They are basically entire species of people enslaved to fulfill a purpose.  The Reapers and Catalyst are basically slaves to their functions, but they are sentient slaves, incapable of rebelling against their programming.  They are sympathetic/tragic villains...Sigh.

[LordRaptor]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Scalabrine wrote...

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final
AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger
DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge
to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines
it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses
Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the
Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that
"Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully,
they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to
the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and
Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still
fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop
hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's
programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.


Lol then explain to me why Anderson makes it out as well...

You're logic is as flawed as the end writing. Reapers didn't want him to succeed it was just bad writing...

"You have altered the variables" lol **** gtfo, Doesn't matter how much they sugar coat the ending with the EC, it still doesn't make sense. Bioware gave a snake bite victim ice cream instead of the antidote...

Well by the time Shepard enters the beam Harbinger has long since gone...so there is nothing impeding him approaching the beam at that point.  He's nowhere near the beam when Harbinger is present, therefore I do not see how you can claim this is "flawed".  It's actually very obvious.

If what you said is true, then they wouldn't have got the 3 husks and marauder shields to attack Shepard.

What I'm trying to explain is that the Reapers CANNOT, willingly go against their programming, they are slaves to it and therefore must act to fulfill it.  Yet Harbinger needs only STOP Shepard to neutralize the threat, not kill him/her, so that's what Harbinger does and therefore Harbinger can then leave.  This does not exclude other Reaper entities or indoctrinated entities from attempting to follow their programming.

[Zine2]

JustinElenbaas wrote...
Throughout the game they are fulfilling their programming.  They are forced to do this beyond choice.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they are acting insane. Insanity is in fact often the result of being unable to think beyond a certain level. Saying this is an admission that they are crazy.

Therefore, it is useless to ponder whether or not they're rooting for Shep if you accept the premise that the Reapers are insane. It ultimately doesn't matter. You can have a crazy person rooting for you, but if they're still out burning down planets and making trouble for you then they remain the problem.

The Reapers rooting for Shep serves nothing except to further confirm that they are insane. It provides no further narrative benefit or revelation.

Modifié par Zine2, 02 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .

[XFeroxX]

Firstly, I don't think its well known on here the process of creating a Reaper. Yes they are made out of DNA goop, but the process of breaking down each person also is extremely complex in that their mind and personality is also kept and then uploaded into the larger Reaper. Once all of the millions of minds are together in one bodily form, connected to all the others in the Reaper Armada, do they then see the "truth". They are not programmed to create each cycle. The cycle being reffered to all the time is that of the constant struggle between Synthetics and Organics, a never ending struggle present in every single cycle: The Protheans in the Metacon War, and the Quarian Geth Conflict ( the Morning War). The Reapers are not true Synthetics as they are Machines made of DNA with the preserved thought of each being and race that makes it. The Reapers only goal is to put Order in the Chaos of this conflict, by allowing races to rise up, have their moment of glory and then "Ascend" into the Reaper form. They wish to stop the conflict before the inevitable victory of all synthetics over organics. In a round about fashion it makes sense by reaper logic, not by any good logic though, The Reaper invasions are merely forcing a conflict before the inevitable one takes place, smothering a gas fire with a larger fire by getting rid of the all the air.

Now to the question at hand. These beings, being wholly controlled by this "logic" if you will, would not let Shepard simply go. Harbinger doesn't muster up the ability to say help us. The Reaper Master AI says it himself, it is simply the amalgamated representation of all the Reaper minds, the collective thoughts of trillions of beings in the form of thousands of machines that follow one goal: stop organics from annihilating eachother and instead save them in reaper form, and allow other races their chance to grow for themselves. Now I realize the AI also says it exsited before the Reapers, and it did, in a way similar to the control ending. Shepard becomes the new catalyst, but what we know as Shepard isn't truly him the sense as we knew it. When the Catalyst found a new solution (Reapers) It grew to include their programming within itself in order to carry out this task. A force like that wouldn't lose its grip on the oldest, largest member of its fleet that has been working to destroy Shepard this whole time. the AI isn't in control of any one Reaper specifically, as proof of Soverieng saying we are each a nation, and possible proof of the Leviathan DLC if it is true. It is merely the Gaurdian of their long term goal, not interacting with the Reapers, leaving them to execute his plan, and merely representing thier ideal.

[dreman9999]

JPN17 wrote...

Yeah the reapers definitely wanted Shepard to win. That's why Sovereign ADC of Saren in ME1 and tried to kill Shepard. It's why they sent the collectors to kill Shepard in ME2 and succeeded and after he was brought back they sent the collectors after him/her again. And it's why Harbinger shoots Shepard in ME3. Yup those reapers were just itching for Shepard to wipe them out.

In ME1 they did yet wanted Sheaprd to win. How could they if they didn't know that Shepard would brake the cycle. It's the same case with ME2. aND iN me2 the reapers want to control Shepard, not destroy him. If cerberus can bring him back alive so can the reapers and the reapers want the SB t get Shep's body for them.
 The moment The reapers start to help Shepard is WHEN tim told them about the crucible. That when evrything changed.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry. But She is the only one on this borsd that think what she thinks happen with the catalyst. If we arefacing wave of people with the samr understanding I would agree but the catalyst bluntly explianed this. BW was ver clear on what hppened to the catalyst. If she didn't get it, it's her fault.

Oh, you mean like before the EC, BioWare was very clear that Shepard was being indoctrinated?

Not like ec proves that he's not. EC just proved that it all was not a dream. But thats besides the point.

Oh good lord..

The only one that think the catalyst broke his programing is you and no hints of that was ever given. 

Yeah, except what the Catalyst says, and that no definition of the word peace involves putting people into death camps to harvest them into Reapers.

[Jadebaby]

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If what you said is true, then they wouldn't have got the 3 husks and marauder shields to attack Shepard.

What I'm trying to explain is that the Reapers CANNOT, willingly go against their programming, they are slaves to it and therefore must act to fulfill it.  Yet Harbinger needs only STOP Shepard to neutralize the threat, not kill him/her, so that's what Harbinger does and therefore Harbinger can then leave.  This does not exclude other Reaper entities or indoctrinated entities from attempting to follow their programming.

My point was that if repear agents are so close by. Harbinger's programming should know Shepard isn't dead. Furthermore whats stopping more soldiers from charging the beam after Harbinger flies off? Just because Shepard's down doesn't mean everyone is...

[LordRaptor]

Zine2 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...
Throughout the game they are fulfilling their programming.  They are forced to do this beyond choice.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they are acting insane. Insanity is in fact often the result of being unable to think beyond a certain level. Saying this is an admission that they are crazy.

Therefore, it is useless to ponder whether or not they're rooting for Shep. It ultimately doesn't matter. You can have a crazy person rooting for you, but if they're still out burning down planets and making trouble for you then they remain the problem.

For it to be deemed insane they would be required to be acting on their free will, which the evidence supports the contrary.  They cannot act on their free will, they openly state time and again, for all their power, things that "cannot be done" or they "can't do".  Cannot and can't do not indicate choice.

In the original cut the Catalyst made a clear distinction that was removed from the EC.  He stated "I can't and I won't".  That distinction shows the Catalyst still agrees with it's solution in the original cut.  Therefore though the Catalyst is a slave to it's programming it still feels it utilizing the best solution.  That "won't" was removed from the EC, which in turn paints the Catalyst as a complete slave to it's programming as well.

Modifié par JustinElenbaas, 02 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Scalabrine wrote...

On the final beam run Harbinger never fires at Shepard until the final
AOE shot that incapacitates Shepard.  Let's be clear here.  Harbinger
DOES NOT MISS.  Stand back and watch the soldiers all making the charge
to the beam run.  Harbinger is a crack shot.  Yet the extend cut defines
it even more clearly by showing how blatantly bad Harbinger misses
Shepard.  Secondly I have railed against Harbinger not firing on the
Normandy, but others have made what I thought was assanign points that
"Harbinger is only concerned with those rushing the beam".  Truthfully,
they're right!  Harbinger acs EVERYONE that draws even remotely close to
the beam because Harbinger has selected Shepard to reach the beam, and
Shepard alone.  Yet Harbinger can only achieve this while still
fulfilling it's programming (defend the beam).  So Harbinger must stop
hammer squad and incapacitate Shepard long enough to satisfy Harbinger's
programming so it can fly away, leaving the beam open to Shepard.


Lol then explain to me why Anderson makes it out as well...

You're logic is as flawed as the end writing. Reapers didn't want him to succeed it was just bad writing...

"You have altered the variables" lol **** gtfo, Doesn't matter how much they sugar coat the ending with the EC, it still doesn't make sense. Bioware gave a snake bite victim ice cream instead of the antidote...

Well by the time Shepard enters the beam Harbinger has long since gone...so there is nothing impeding him approaching the beam at that point.  He's nowhere near the beam when Harbinger is present, therefore I do not see how you can claim this is "flawed".  It's actually very obvious.

If what you said is true, then they wouldn't have got the 3 husks and marauder shields to attack Shepard.

Can stop programing.
Think like a machine for a bit. A machineonly does what it;s programed to do. It only stops when it physily stoppedor turned off, told to do something else, or finishes what it's programed to do. They can't help to seen Husk after Shepard. That's what they are programed to do.

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If what you said is true, then they wouldn't have got the 3 husks and marauder shields to attack Shepard.

What I'm trying to explain is that the Reapers CANNOT, willingly go against their programming, they are slaves to it and therefore must act to fulfill it.  Yet Harbinger needs only STOP Shepard to neutralize the threat, not kill him/her, so that's what Harbinger does and therefore Harbinger can then leave.  This does not exclude other Reaper entities or indoctrinated entities from attempting to follow their programming.

My point was that if repear agents are so close by. Harbinger's programming should know Shepard isn't dead. Furthermore whats stopping more soldiers from charging the beam after Harbinger flies off? Just because Shepard's down doesn't mean everyone is...

Listen to the radio chatter.Itclearly says what happens to everyone else.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

Listen to the radio chatter.Itclearly says what happens to everyone else.

It says that there are still marines and Major Coates nearby.
If Harbinger flies off, why didn't they make for the beam?

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry. But She is the only one on this borsd that think what she thinks happen with the catalyst. If we arefacing wave of people with the samr understanding I would agree but the catalyst bluntly explianed this. BW was ver clear on what hppened to the catalyst. If she didn't get it, it's her fault.

Oh, you mean like before the EC, BioWare was very clear that Shepard was being indoctrinated?

Not like ec proves that he's not. EC just proved that it all was not a dream. But thats besides the point.

Oh good lord..

The only one that think the catalyst broke his programing is you and no hints of that was ever given. 

Yeah, except what the Catalyst says, and that no definition of the word peace involves putting people into death camps to harvest them into Reapers.

Think like a machine. If you do it makes sense. A machine only does what it's programed to do. The only time it can do what ever it want is if it writes it's own code. That said a machine will do it's programing untill it; stopped or turned off, told to do something else, or finishes what it's programed to do.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Listen to the radio chatter.Itclearly says what happens to everyone else.

It says that there are still marines and Major Coates nearby.
If Harbinger flies off, why didn't they make for the beam?

1. They pull back.

2. What says they are not attacked by some thing else.Based on the last few cut scenes, they are.