191 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, I rather like this idea. It certainly makes the shut-down of the Crucible in Refusal make more sense. I never got the feeling the Catalyst shut it down on his own, but rather, since Shepard does nothing, the Catalyst also refuses to do anything, and the Crucible runs down on it's own.

[Krunjar]

D24O wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

That vid is blocked in my region any chance of a summary of what it says ?

Basically that the Catalyst is a crazy AI or maybe even a VI, that knows its stuck in a faulty logical loop. Since the reapers are sentient, they know this too, but being controled by the catalyst, they are stuck in the same loop against their will. This interpertation is actually pretty interesting.

Thanks

[macrocarl]

Yeah I like this interpretation too. Good job OP!

[ld1449]

I think you're giving Bioware (along with Mac Walters) WAAAAYYY too much credit.

But goddamn if this won't help me headcannon my way through the game should I ever choose to play it again. All the nonsense can almost pass as a fine meal rather than just an edible hunk of meat.

[Armdin]

I like this idea~ It makes sense out of many aspects of the new Extended Cut. However -sadly- ME3's ending was still created at the last minute and no amount of fan-fixing will save it's plotholes and contradictions.

I fully believe ME was created without a proper ending, I do it a lot myself when writing; half a story forms in my mind and an end either crops up or it doesn't - and if the latter I abandon the story. Sadly Bioware couldn't simply abandon ME, and so sadly ME3 suffered for it. I hope one day we can see a complete remake of the ME series, with better graphics n' the usual stuff that comes with remakes. Now that Bioware knows what it wants with the story if it got remade they could tailor to it.

Until then; this theory and my own headcanon will suffice. I still enjoyed EC~

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words, fair denizen of the BSN! But what do you think about the Catalyst taking the shape of the child from Earth?

[futeki]

This is now my canon...I can completely agree with your rational behind this theory. Programming an AI is like making a wish. The end result may be dramatically different than what you originally intended, unless every possible contingency is accounted for. This could explain the Catalyst getting out of hand and implementing the cycle in the first place. Well done!

[HooblaDGN]

If the reapers' sentience wants to disobey their programming and does so enough to make things easier for Shepard to succeed, then why are Sov and Harby continuously threatening you and declaring your inferiority and inevitable doom?

EDIT: I mean, these things are ancient. They existed for aeons beyond remembrance. If they were resisting it would occur over an immensely long period, so them threatening the heck out of you throughout 1 and 2 sort of disproves this idea unless you just REALLY want to believe it.

In addition, if the Catalyst has resisted enough to present you with these options, what is keeping it from just explaining the situation? It is generally easier to speak than to act, yet you believe that the catalyst is unable to speak clearly through its programming when its own actions are creating scenarios that go against said programming? Not buyin it.

I'm also going to have to agree with TAO, the Caralyst is certainly capable of shifting its own agenda if it can convince itself that said agenda serves its perverted image of the greater good.

Modifié par HooblaDGN, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[futeki]

HooblaDGN wrote...

If the reapers' sentience wants to disobey their programming and does so enough to make things easier for Shepard to succeed, then why are Sov and Harby continuously threatening you and declaring your inferiority and inevitable doom?

EDIT: I mean, these things are ancient. They existed for aeons beyond remembrance. If they were resisting it would occur over an immensely long period, so them threatening the heck out of you throughout 1 and 2 sort of disproves this idea unless you just REALLY want to believe it.

In addition, if the Catalyst has resisted enough to present you with these options, what is keeping it from just explaining the situation? It is generally easier to speak than to act, yet you believe that the catalyst is unable to speak clearly through its programming when its own actions are creating scenarios that go against said programming? Not buyin it.

I'm also going to have to agree with TAO, the Caralyst is certainly capable of shifting its own agenda if it can convince itself that said agenda serves its perverted image of the greater good.

I think you can make the case that Sovereign and Harbinger had no way of knowing initially that Shepard could succeed, that this cycle would be any different than the ones that came before it.  Therefore they treated her just like any other organic.  Shepard coming back from the dead to destroy their Collector base is the kind of thing that would've made them sit up and take notice.

[Ponei]

 

[Mythx88]

^^^

Oh jeez, I hoped no one would find that picture of me. It's my reaction to the Synthesis ending, but it's fitting for this thread too.

Modifié par Mythx88, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:50 .

[Krunjar]

yes of course why didn't I think of posting some stupid picture! All the times I have tried to make my case with intelligent debate when all this time all i had to do was post a picture of some brain dead looking pony. And then everyone would get how stupid they where to have a different opinion to me. Bravo!!

[spirosz]

I really like this idea. Especially with the whole idea of a "rogue" Reaper speculation coming from the "Leviathan DLC"

[What a Succulent Ass]

Cool speculations, bro.

[v3paR]

with one exception. the catalyst didn't made the Reapers. the original creators did. most likely as a tools for that AI.

he clearly said it: "my creators gave them form, i gave them function"

so both Catalyst and Reapers were created at the same time or at least by that same race. it is the Catalyst who decided to harvest and store life in Reapers (starting with their own creators). they could have been pure machines at start but by harvesting organic lifes evolve to some kind of hybrids.

[Legion of 1337]

Makes sense - the Catalyst wants someone to use the Crucible to create Synthesis, so he has an interest in having Shepard succeed. Not sure about the Reapers themselves - we don't have much insight as to how they think or how much of an influence the Catalyst has on them.

[What a Succulent Ass]

spiros9110 wrote...

I really like this idea. Especially with the whole idea of a "rogue" Reaper speculation coming from the "Leviathan DLC"

But that "reaper" isn't a reaper. It's a member of the species that created the Catalyst.

[spirosz]

Random Jerkface wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

I really like this idea. Especially with the whole idea of a "rogue" Reaper speculation coming from the "Leviathan DLC"

But that "reaper" isn't a reaper. It's a member of the species that created the Catalyst.

Headcanon ftw.

[Krunjar]

It would make sense for the influence The Catalyst has on The Reapers to be based on indoctrination I think. And we have seen how effective that is. But also that a strong enough willed mind can break through for short periods. However it's unlikely that even should a reaper want to break free that he would do so without a very good reason. Such as stopping himself from shooting at the one person who might just save him

And even if Leviathan isnt a rogue but a member of the species that created the reapers tbh it only increases the possibilty of juicy exposition XD

Wait that last sentence sounded pretty wrong .. oh well u get it lol

Modifié par Krunjar, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:19 .

[hanshotfirs]

I very much agree with you, and have always played the game with this kind of interpretation. I still believe that Destroy is the best option, but I totally agree that the Reapers are trying to rebel against the Catalyst... hence the human proto-reaper, possibly building that as a hope that the human species would be the one to break the cycle, so build a reaper out of them, and it would free the whole reaper species.

But that's just me.

[Dessalines]

I don't understand what synthetics was the Catalyst designed to help bridge the peace gap with, because it does seem like it was the Reapers.
I do believe that some of what you say could possibly play a part of a bigger puzzle. Some parts of Mass Effect 3 do not make any sense.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Only if the leviathans look like this:

[Krunjar]

Ok i gotta say this

OM NOM NOM NOM! mmmm ... delicious utopia

Modifié par Krunjar, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .

[Macro Dude]

futeki wrote...

HooblaDGN wrote...

If the reapers' sentience wants to disobey their programming and does so enough to make things easier for Shepard to succeed, then why are Sov and Harby continuously threatening you and declaring your inferiority and inevitable doom?

EDIT: I mean, these things are ancient. They existed for aeons beyond remembrance. If they were resisting it would occur over an immensely long period, so them threatening the heck out of you throughout 1 and 2 sort of disproves this idea unless you just REALLY want to believe it.

In addition, if the Catalyst has resisted enough to present you with these options, what is keeping it from just explaining the situation? It is generally easier to speak than to act, yet you believe that the catalyst is unable to speak clearly through its programming when its own actions are creating scenarios that go against said programming? Not buyin it.

I'm also going to have to agree with TAO, the Caralyst is certainly capable of shifting its own agenda if it can convince itself that said agenda serves its perverted image of the greater good.

I think you can make the case that Sovereign and Harbinger had no way of knowing initially that Shepard could succeed, that this cycle would be any different than the ones that came before it.  Therefore they treated her just like any other organic.  Shepard coming back from the dead to destroy their Collector base is the kind of thing that would've made them sit up and take notice.

The catalyst also clearly states that the crucibal has "changed the variables" so it's "solution" (the reapers), will no longer work. Reguardless, the point is simple enough. You choose to do nothing and the cycle continues, or you choose one of 3 "ultimate sacrifices" to end the cycle forever. In the end, life in the galaxy goes on, no matter what you choose.

[Macro Dude]

The Angry One wrote...

JustinElenbaas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Peace at any cost does not include a perpetual cycle of WAR.
And yes, it's war. No matter what the Catalyst claims, no logical being or programmed directive would accept galactic scale destruction as peace.

Not to mention all the conflicts that occur within those 50,000 years that the Catalyst does nothing to stop. Sorry, it just doesn't work. I realise you want to paint the Catalyst as a victim of it's own directives to make yourselves feel better about doing it's bidding, but it doesn't work, sorry.

Actually you're speaking subjectively and the Catalyst is speaking objectively.  The analogy of a wildfire clearing the overgrow and decay of a forest is very fitting.  The Catalyst is basically saying we are acting as a force of nature, the natural reaction to the gradual decay of society.  Where a fire clears away all the dead and overgrown flora that would inevitably strip an environment of the resource of water to survive (thus the abundance of dead brush that can easily catch fire, a natural cycle).  That is a very objective viewpoint that a construct would initially take.  A construct similar to the AI EDI once was on the moon.  

Fire does not purposefully seek to kill anyone. If you evade a fire, it does not FOLLOW you intentionally.
The Catalyst instigates conflict. It had the Geth fight the Quarians, it had the Zha'til fight the Protheans, it indoctrinates agents and husks to fight it's battles. It destroys cities and shoots down civilians. It engages in space battles.

It BREEDS conflict. It maintains a cycle of destruction. It is objectively wrong, and countering it's original directives.

JustinElenbaas wrote...

Oh I agree.  Make no mistake, just because I propose this does not mean I like it or believe it was well implemented.

To be honest what you're doing is no different than Indoctrination Theory, cherry-picking minor details in order to prop up a specific belief that it's likely BioWare weren't even thinking of.

Another way to look at this is to compare the catalyst to a table saw without a safety bar. The saw is created to cut wood, but, if you push too far over the table you cut yourself. The creators of the catalyst pushed the programing of the catalyst too far and got cut. The addition of a safety bar stops the blade, and changes the way the saw behaves when you push your hand under it. you have to look at the crucibal as a safety bar in this case as it changes the way the catalyst behaves. This can also be compared to the AI from the story "I robot" taking the 3 laws of robitics to it's n'th degree and deciding the only way to protect mankind was to control it, basically saving it from itself, and it's self-destructive nature.

It 's much like having someone take your favorite toy and casting it in amber, on the one hand it will never get broken and never wear out and it will be there for posterity, but on the other hand you've been deprived the ability to actually play with and enjoy that toy.

Something to think about.