463 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

maaaze wrote...

this is not the topic...but i bite

there was nothing to contradict because the motivations of the reapers were unclear prior to the catalyst.
It is good writing in my opinion to give opposing force a motivation behind their doing.

Not when the motivations are self contradicting.

"We kill you to save you from getting killed by synthetics"

Oh right they are not killing us, they are "preserving" well that and the speech about fire consuming makes it alright then.


I actually agree with you, the Catalyst cannot control his actions. His logic originated from a group of people who created an AI to figure out how to stop created AI's from killing everything. His logic is perfectly understandable to when you realize just how stupid the people who created him were.

Apparently they were surprised when the AI they had created, to stop AI's from killing everyone, ended up killing them all. Lol.

Modifié par Isichar, 26 août 2012 - 06:25 .

[RebelTitan428]

what about when sovereign said "we have no beginning, we have no end, we simply are"

because according to the catalyst they do have a beginning, and according to the catalyst conversation they have a foreseeable end.

[AlanC9]

RebelTitan428 wrote...

what about when sovereign said "we have no beginning, we have no end, we simply are"

That was obvious nonsense anyway.

[Greed1914]

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst is stupid and everything that comes out of it's deceptive, insane mouth is stupid.

I loathe that creature, and not in the way a proper villain character should be loathed, but as the blight on the Mass Effect mythos it is.

Dranks wrote...

If you set fire to my house, you're at war
with me, not the fire. The fire was just a tool. I do see what you're
saying though.

The fire is used in an act of war, though and is being directed as such.
This is why I hate the Catalyst. It excuses everything it does with faulty metaphors and sugar-coating, like how it claims it doesn't kill, only "ascends".

This all goes back to Sovereign. Sovereign was a powerful antagonist, and he wasn't slimy.
Sovereign basically said "Yes. I'm going to kill you. What are you going to do about it? Nothing, that's what."
The Catalyst says "I don't kill! I help everyone! It's not my fault! I am merely a tool of fate!"

Guess which one I respect as an adversary and which one I think isn't fit to be walked over in high heels.

I agree with this so much.  It's amazing that the "clarity" that was supposed to be added with the EC resulted in what amounts to an arsonist saying it's not his fault that the fire he set burned your house to the ground.  You know that the basic premise of the Catalyst was ridiculously flawed when its explanations only serve to amplify how flawed it is   Though, I suppose flawed reasoning in the EC shouldn't have surprised me when it was coming from the same folks that thought the original ending was acceptable. 

Modifié par Greed1914, 26 août 2012 - 08:06 .

[Hrothdane]

Regardless of anything else, the analogy sucks. Fire is not sentient or sapient and is a physical phenomenon.

Also, from a legal perspective, killing while lacking the intention to kill does lessen the crime, but it is still a crime. Let's say the Reapers get 3-5 years because Starbinger is a good lawyer. Multiply that be a few hundred trillion (likely more) and you got quite a hefty sentence.

Not saying that proves anything; I just find it an interesting perspective.

EDIT: Forgot wrongful death suits. The population of the galaxy could open up a class-action with a few trillion co-plaintiffs and bankrupt the Reapers.

Modifié par Hrothdane, 26 août 2012 - 08:15 .

[Mazebook]

Hrothdane wrote...

Regardless of anything else, the analogy sucks. Fire is not sentient or sapient and is a physical phenomenon.

Also, from a legal perspective, killing while lacking the intention to kill does lessen the crime, but it is still a crime. Let's say the Reapers get 3-5 years because Starbinger is a good lawyer. Multiply that be a few hundred trillion (likely more) and you got quite a hefty sentence.

Not saying that proves anything; I just find it an interesting perspective.

EDIT: Forgot wrongful death suits. The population of the galaxy could open up a class-action with a few trillion co-plaintiffs and bankrupt the Reapers.

the point is that he had no free will. Someone can not be guilty if he did not chose to do the crime. Just like fire has never a choice. It does what it does. The creator of the fire has the responsiblity of it´s destruction. 
The Catalyst is a programm.
the reapers are programmed.
they were all programmed to do what the creators could not do themselfs. To end conflict.
but the creators did not forsee what the endresult of their programming would entail. 

[Hrothdane]

maaaze wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Regardless of anything else, the analogy sucks. Fire is not sentient or sapient and is a physical phenomenon.

Also, from a legal perspective, killing while lacking the intention to kill does lessen the crime, but it is still a crime. Let's say the Reapers get 3-5 years because Starbinger is a good lawyer. Multiply that be a few hundred trillion (likely more) and you got quite a hefty sentence.

Not saying that proves anything; I just find it an interesting perspective.

EDIT: Forgot wrongful death suits. The population of the galaxy could open up a class-action with a few trillion co-plaintiffs and bankrupt the Reapers.

the point is that he had no free will. Someone can not be guilty if he did not chose to do the crime. Just like fire has never a choice. It does what it does. The creator of the fire has the responsiblity of it´s destruction. 
The Catalyst is a programm.
the reapers are programmed.
they were all programmed to do what the creators could not do themselfs. To end conflict.
but the creators did not forsee what the endresult of their programming would entail. 

If they were just stupid programs and had no free will, then you shut 'em down and don't feel bad about it. Should we let computer viruses stay on computers because they didn't choose to be viruses? Should we leave unforeseen programming errors because they are just doing what we programmed them to, even if it wasn't intended?

Either Reapers have free will and need be shut down in the name of justice, or they don't and they need to be shut down for being ****ty programs.

[D24O]

If Levvy turns out to be one of the Precursors, I blem him for this whole mess.

[OblivionDawn]

No, none of the things in the OP are waging war. They are objects devoid of free will, only doing what they were created to do.

Just because the Catalyst isn't the most likable character doesn't mean that NOTHING he says makes sense. This happens to be one of those things that do make sense.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Catalyst scene could have used some Samuel L. Jackson (Pulp Fiction style).

"When fire burns is it at war?"
"Hmmm...Where are you located?"
"That doesn't..."
"I asked you a question. Where... are... you... located?"
"Why do you wish to know?"
"Because I want to give you the opportunity to answer that question."
"What question?"
"When fire burns is it at war? I want to give you that opportunity when I burn your sorry mutha****in' ass."

[Steelcan]

Reapers have free will. They are each a nation, independent etc..... Fire is none of those things

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Fire doesn't burn, fuel burns................it's the end result of the fuel+oxygen+ignition, combination.

Fire as a result can consume other forms of fuel, if there's sufficient oxygen.

[ZackG312]

That quote was so bad I luaghed when I heard more of Casey and Mac trying to be "deep"

[Mazebook]

Hrothdane wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

Regardless of anything else, the analogy sucks. Fire is not sentient or sapient and is a physical phenomenon.

Also, from a legal perspective, killing while lacking the intention to kill does lessen the crime, but it is still a crime. Let's say the Reapers get 3-5 years because Starbinger is a good lawyer. Multiply that be a few hundred trillion (likely more) and you got quite a hefty sentence.

Not saying that proves anything; I just find it an interesting perspective.

EDIT: Forgot wrongful death suits. The population of the galaxy could open up a class-action with a few trillion co-plaintiffs and bankrupt the Reapers.

the point is that he had no free will. Someone can not be guilty if he did not chose to do the crime. Just like fire has never a choice. It does what it does. The creator of the fire has the responsiblity of it´s destruction. 
The Catalyst is a programm.
the reapers are programmed.
they were all programmed to do what the creators could not do themselfs. To end conflict.
but the creators did not forsee what the endresult of their programming would entail. 

If they were just stupid programs and had no free will, then you shut 'em down and don't feel bad about it. Should we let computer viruses stay on computers because they didn't choose to be viruses? Should we leave unforeseen programming errors because they are just doing what we programmed them to, even if it wasn't intended?

Either Reapers have free will and need be shut down in the name of justice, or they don't and they need to be shut down for being ****ty programs.

Well , of course you so. I don´t know about you but I eradicated the Catalyst. ended the cycle and became a legend.

did you choose refuse because you did not want to kill the catalyst?
don´t understand.

Modifié par maaaze, 26 août 2012 - 11:05 .

[Mazebook]

Steelcan wrote...

Reapers have free will. They are each a nation, independent etc..... Fire is none of those things

Yes, they think they are free...but it is clear they are not. What part of "i control the reapers" did you not understand?

[Ghost]

OblivionDawn wrote...

No, none of the things in the OP are waging war. They are objects devoid of free will, only doing what they were created to do.

Just because the Catalyst isn't the most likable character doesn't mean that NOTHING he says makes sense. This happens to be one of those things that do make sense.

This.

[Doctoglethorpe]

I lol at the logic behind that statement.

Okay, you wanna play the whole "guns don't kill people, the people using guns do" argument, then whoever created and controls the Reapers is the one to blame.

But wouldn't that be... the catalyst?

Dun dun dunnn!

[Steelcan]

maaaze wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Reapers have free will. They are each a nation, independent etc..... Fire is none of those things

Yes, they think they are free...but it is clear they are not. What part of "i control the reapers" did you not understand?

The Catalyst may control the Reapers, but maybe he controls them because they agree with his crap logic.  That said its also entirely plausible they are indoctrinated minds serving the Catalyst

[Ghost]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

I lol at the logic behind that statement.

Okay, you wanna play the whole "guns don't kill people, the people using guns do" argument, then whoever created and controls the Reapers is the one to blame.

But wouldn't that be... the catalyst?

Dun dun dunnn!

The catalyst is doing what it was created to do oversee the cycle.

[MegaSovereign]

I still think the Reapers are actually just Geth.

[Steelcan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I still think the Reapers are actually just Geth.

please do explain that one

[MegaSovereign]

Steelcan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I still think the Reapers are actually just Geth.

please do explain that one

The Quarians created the Geth.

The Geth created the Reapers.

Here's the proof.

Creators make **** to perfect their existence. Reapers are perfected synthetics. Reaper code completes Geth evolution.

Therefore, Geth created Reapers.

[D24O]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Quarians created the Geth.

The Geth created the Reapers.

Here's the proof.

Creators make **** to perfect their existence. Reapers are perfected synthetics. Reaper code completes Geth evolution.

Therefore, Geth created Reapers.

This logic worked for the council, works for me too.

[Ghost]

D24O wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Quarians created the Geth.

The Geth created the Reapers.

Here's the proof.

Creators make **** to perfect their existence. Reapers are perfected synthetics. Reaper code completes Geth evolution.

Therefore, Geth created Reapers.

This logic worked for the council, works for me too.

Don't you have a quarian to bang? 

[Meltemph]

The catalyst is doing what it was created to do oversee the cycle.

Actually, in the ec without saying it, I think he essetnially said he went beyond his programming of what he was "designed" to do, since the creators didnt agree. Which actaully makes sense, since in this universe AI technology research is essentially armageddon.