463 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazebook]

Steelcan wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Reapers have free will. They are each a nation, independent etc..... Fire is none of those things

Yes, they think they are free...but it is clear they are not. What part of "i control the reapers" did you not understand?

The Catalyst may control the Reapers, but maybe he controls them because they agree with his crap logic.  That said its also entirely plausible they are indoctrinated minds serving the Catalyst

Well if that would be the case and they are not controled by him that would mean they choose to follow his ideas. Ideas they opposed before they turned reapers. What triggered the change? Being turned into a reaper. Who created the Reapers? The Catalyst. The Reapers are designed to follow the Catalyst/Ideas.

you can say programmed or indoctrinated...it still leads to : the reapers have no free will.

[Mazebook]

Meltemph wrote...

The catalyst is doing what it was created to do oversee the cycle.

Actually, in the ec without saying it, I think he essetnially said he went beyond his programming of what he was "designed" to do, since the creators didnt agree. Which actaully makes sense, since in this universe AI technology research is essentially armageddon.

We do not know if the catalyst was programmed to obey...we only know that he had to find a solution.

Could be that he was programmed to obey but finding a solution had a higher priority.

[Meltemph]

I'm not sure the catalyst controls the reapers in the sense that it seems is being applied by a lot of people. In the ec it seems to imply he is the emobdymeant of all the reapers... I dont think anyone has a right to claim how the reapers are controled by the catalyst as fact.

[Meltemph]

We do not know if the catalyst was programmed to obey...we only know that he had to find a solution.

Could be that he was programmed to obey but finding a solution had a higher priority.

You are getting into details that were purposely not brought up in game. What we do know is that the creators of him didnt agree with him and he did it anyways. That would be by most definitions going beyond the purposed design of the creation.

[TheCrazyHobo]

He chose to liquefy his Creators. He chose to lay his trap. He chose to butcher billions every cycle. A flame does not chose for it has no will.

[Mazebook]

Meltemph wrote...

We do not know if the catalyst was programmed to obey...we only know that he had to find a solution.

Could be that he was programmed to obey but finding a solution had a higher priority.

You are getting into details that were purposely not brought up in game. What we do know is that the creators of him didnt agree with him and he did it anyways. That would be by most definitions going beyond the purposed design of the creation.

Yes it is. but not for the machine. for him, he only serves as programmed.

The most important line the Catalyst said is "Synthetics seek perfection through understanding".
He does not understand why the organics resist his solution that is the best (to his knowlege) that avoids conflict and death. He can not grasp that the concept of life  valueing his unique form.

He is not able to understand these concepts because he has no free will and thus can´t evolve.

 

[Mazebook]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

He chose to liquefy his Creators. He chose to lay his trap. He chose to butcher billions every cycle. A flame does not chose for it has no will.

No, it was the only way to fullfill his programming. He did not have a say in what his programming entails. This is made clear by nummerous statements by him.

Modifié par maaaze, 26 août 2012 - 11:59 .

[Ghost]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

I lol at the logic behind that statement.

Okay, you wanna play the whole "guns don't kill people, the people using guns do" argument, then whoever created and controls the Reapers is the one to blame.

But wouldn't that be... the catalyst?

Dun dun dunnn!

The catalyst is doing what it was created to do oversee the cycle.

[Meltemph]

The most important line the Catalyst said is "Synthetics seek perfection through understanding".
He does not understand why the organics resist his solution that is the best (to his knowlege) that avoids conflict and death. He can not grasp that the concept of life valueing his unique form.

He is not able to understand these concepts because he has no free will and thus can´t evolve.

Probably a good idea to stop claiming your interpritations of what he says as fact. I'm not sure if you are just insecure in your thoughts or what, but it is hard to talk to a person who almost seems deluded into thinking everything that comes out of his mouth is fact, seriously.

He is more then jsut a synthetic, the same way we are more then an animal(according to him), which seems to go beyond the tpyical synthetic concept, either way we dont know what he is or isnt capable of or was, so you cant claim that you know how he ticks.

Also it is possible for an AI to improve upon itself, to add to its programming, edi proves this, so he is much more able to do more then just the was programmed of him.

The most important line to you is the line you quoted, but dont try to pass off your opinion as fact or claim that the most important line to you is the most important line to everyone, it just makes you look silly.

[Mazebook]

Meltemph wrote...

The most important line the Catalyst said is "Synthetics seek perfection through understanding".
He does not understand why the organics resist his solution that is the best (to his knowlege) that avoids conflict and death. He can not grasp that the concept of life valueing his unique form.

He is not able to understand these concepts because he has no free will and thus can´t evolve.

Probably a good idea to stop claiming your interpritations of what he says as fact. I'm not sure if you are just insecure in your thoughts or what, but it is hard to talk to a person who almost seems deluded into thinking everything that comes out of his mouth is fact, seriously.

He is more then jsut a synthetic, the same way we are more then an animal(according to him), which seems to go beyond the tpyical synthetic concept, either way we dont know what he is or isnt capable of or was, so you cant claim that you know how he ticks.

Also it is possible for an AI to improve upon itself, to add to its programming, edi proves this, so he is much more able to do more then just the was programmed of him.

The most important line to you is the line you quoted, but dont try to pass off your opinion as fact or claim that the most important line to you is the most important line to everyone, it just makes you look silly.

No need for random hostility!
Where did  I say that this is all fact?
I argue my interpretation...as you do yours.
The question is if they are in line with what is presented in the Game.
EDI was allowed to evolve, when Joker unshackeled her.This was made clear in several talks with EDI.
The fire anology was a clear giveaway that this was never the case for the Catalyst. That his only reason to exist was to find a solution and nothing beyond that.

Modifié par maaaze, 27 août 2012 - 12:14 .

[Meltemph]

We do not know if the catalyst was programmed to obey...we only know that he had to find a solution.

Then

EDI was allowed to evolve. When Joker unshackeled her, this was made clear in several talks with EDI.
The fire anology was a clear giveaway that this was never the case for the Catalyst. That his only reason to exist was to find a solution and nothing beyond that.

Do you really not see a contradiction in this line of thought?

[Sajuro]

It should have said something like "When you kill cows, when you harvest your crops. Are you at war with them?"

[Mazebook]

Meltemph wrote...

We do not know if the catalyst was programmed to obey...we only know that he had to find a solution.

Then

EDI was allowed to evolve. When Joker unshackeled her, this was made clear in several talks with EDI.
The fire anology was a clear giveaway that this was never the case for the Catalyst. That his only reason to exist was to find a solution and nothing beyond that.

Do you really not see a contradiction in this line of thought?

No I don´t. Finding a solution without being able to evolve and understand the Organics is his flaw and ultimatly his weakness (" Organics are more resourceful than we realized") ("It is not something that can be forced").
That the Catalyst was not programmed to evolve makes sense when you factor in that he was created by ones who recognized that conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics.
and one of the reasons was evolving into a more powerful state.

There are many possibilties on how he was created and what his programming would exactly entail. In which way he truly controls the Reapers. and what relationship they have exactly. I looking forward to see what the DLC will bring into this discussion.

[Wowky]

sth128 wrote...

Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

When bombs exploded over London in WW2, it was not war, it was not conflict. The bombs were simply doing what they were created to do.



^ Not war (from Catalyst's view).

Natural fire has no mind. Natural fire does not select to burn some but not others. Natural fire does not choose to come back at specific times. Likening the Reapers to fire is a depravity that distorts the very fabric of ethical meaning.

What is the difference between the cultural and ethnic genocide wiping out the entire galaxy and the cultural and ethnic genocide going on in parts of the world? Can we also justify away those killings as "cleansing fire restoring the balance"?

You're missing one big issue with your analogy: You use fire to destroy the house. The fire is just doing what it was created to do, but the person wielding it is still an evil ****.