463 réponses à ce sujet

[Zardoc]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Now, if only someone had told him what "preserving life" actually means.

[Forbry]

o Ventus wrote...

Arguing against unlogic doesn't work.

I do it every day while debating Synthesis.

This.

It's just twisting things around to your own will or being utterly dumb. No, it is not even funny. You are trying to ruin a beatiful, simple but very effective metaphor here.

[spiriticon]

garrusfan1 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Has no one heard the saying, "It's not guns that kill, it's people."?

Yeah but the reapers have brains they are not an inanimate object like a gun (I agree with that saying just not with this)

The reapers were programmed to kill. Blame the programmer, not the reaper.

In fact if Shepard takes control, the reapers are used for a completely different purpose. It just shows that they are nothing more than tools.

Modifié par spiriticon, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Except that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to bring peace and consensus between organics and synthetics.
One minute it's saying it's perverted it's own directives, the next it's saying it is doing what it was created for.

I HATE THIS THING SO MUCH.

[garrusfan1]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

But in me1 sovereign says they're each ..... Oh forget it holo kid ruins logic from me1 and me2

[Dranks]

adneate wrote...

spiriticon wrote...
Has no one heard the saying, "It's not guns that kill, it's people."?

That doesn't really seem to be the point the Catalyst is failing to make it's saying trying to say that manufactured weapons aren't used for war, they are somehow natural inspite of being utterly artificial. That you can make giant death crusiers in the shape of cuttlefish but not use them to fight a war because giant death crusiers in the shape of cuttlefish just naturally kill and slaughter as part of their nature.

It's almost the stupidest thing I've ever heard since "Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist."

Hey! Hey! Back off The Princess Bride!

[Mr_Blue]

The Angry One wrote...

This all goes back to Sovereign. Sovereign was a powerful antagonist, and he wasn't slimy.
Sovereign basically said "Yes. I'm going to kill you. What are you going to do about it? Nothing, that's what."
The Catalyst says "I don't kill! I help everyone! It's not my fault! I am merely a tool of fate!"

Guess which one I respect as an adversary and which one I think isn't fit to be walked over in high heels.

I could not have expressed this better myself.

[garrusfan1]

Spiritcon the reapers are supposed to each be an individual nation

[v3paR]

sth128 wrote...

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

it is war. with you. not with the fire.

Bullets, bombs, nukes, knifes are all tools. They don't kill because they have bad day or because wife cheats on them. Its people who use them.
So basicaly some ancient race shot a bullet and people are still dying.

Is this really that complicated?

[Alushadow]

o Ventus wrote...

Arguing against unlogic doesn't work.

I do it every day while debating Synthesis.

yes that is correct
you cannot argue with illogical thinking

[TheBlackRose]

This thread is just... 

If I light your house on fire, then I am trying to harm you. I am using the fire as a tool to harm you. The fire just does as it is told. It is my weapon. It does what it was created to do: destroy. But it did not decide to burn your house. I told it to. Therefore, you are not at war with fire, you are at war with me. The same principle applies to the nuclear bomb. A bomb is created to explode. It has no other choice. The bomb is a weapon used by one force against another.

So yeah, it makes perfect sense, provided your IQ is greater than zero.

[garrusfan1]

Mr_Blue wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

This all goes back to Sovereign. Sovereign was a powerful antagonist, and he wasn't slimy.
Sovereign basically said "Yes. I'm going to kill you. What are you going to do about it? Nothing, that's what."
The Catalyst says "I don't kill! I help everyone! It's not my fault! I am merely a tool of fate!"

Guess which one I respect as an adversary and which one I think isn't fit to be walked over in high heels.

I could not have expressed this better myself.

Agree with angry one as well

[The Angry One]

v3paR wrote...

sth128 wrote...

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

it is war. with you. not with the fire.

Bullets, bombs, nukes, knifes are all tools. They don't kill because they have bad day or because wife cheats on them. Its people who use them.
So basicaly some ancient race shot a bullet and people are still dying.

Is this really that complicated?

No. Because they didn't. That "bullet" decided to change the rules on it's own.

[CronoDragoon]

Zardoc wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Now, if only someone had told him what "preserving life" actually means.

Yes, it seems his creators did a poor job establishing the defitions and limits of what they wanted. Consequently the Catalyst is not precluded from defining Reapers as a way to preserve organic and synthetic life. Basically, he went against the spirit of  his creators' intent in order to fulfill his purpose.

[Zardoc]

v3paR wrote...

sth128 wrote...

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

it is war. with you. not with the fire.

Bullets, bombs, nukes, knifes are all tools. They don't kill because they have bad day or because wife cheats on them. Its people who use them.
So basicaly some ancient race shot a bullet and people are still dying.

Is this really that complicated?

No. An ancient race created a being to help them achieve peace with synthetics. That being went mad (or simply betrayed it's creators) and then made the first fire, the Reapers. We are at war with the Catalyst, and the Reapers are his fire.

[Forbry]

TheBlackRose wrote...

This thread is just... 

If I light your house on fire, then I am trying to harm you. I am using the fire as a tool to harm you. The fire just does as it is told. It is my weapon. It does what it was created to do: destroy. But it did not decide to burn your house. I told it to. Therefore, you are not at war with fire, you are at war with me. The same principle applies to the nuclear bomb. A bomb is created to explode. It has no other choice. The bomb is a weapon used by one force against another.

So yeah, it makes perfect sense, provided your IQ is greater than zero.

LOL!!!!

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Now, if only someone had told him what "preserving life" actually means.

Yes, it seems his creators did a poor job establishing the defitions and limits of what they wanted. Consequently the Catalyst is not precluded from defining Reapers as a way to preserve organic and synthetic life. Basically, he went against the spirit of  his creators' intent in order to fulfill his purpose. 

 
Well, our language sucks.
Look at neighbour threads where they argue on what the heck "evil" and "alive" are.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Except that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to bring peace and consensus between organics and synthetics.
One minute it's saying it's perverted it's own directives, the next it's saying it is doing what it was created for.

I HATE THIS THING SO MUCH.

Which is why it would make for a great villain provided you didn't have to destroy EDI and the geth. You aren't supposed to agree with the villain's conclusions.

[Zardoc]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Except that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to bring peace and consensus between organics and synthetics.
One minute it's saying it's perverted it's own directives, the next it's saying it is doing what it was created for.

I HATE THIS THING SO MUCH.

Which is why it would make for a great villain provided you didn't have to destroy EDI and the geth. You aren't supposed to agree with the villain's conclusions.

Yeah, but a villain is supposed to atleast make some ounce of sense. Unless it's the Joker.

Modifié par Zardoc, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:08 .

[General User]

The fire burns, huh? Then I suppose that would make the Catalyst an arsonist.

[adneate]

v3paR wrote...
it is war. with you. not with the fire.

That's not what the Catalyst is saying it's saying the galaxy isn't at war with the Reapers or it. That it can willfully perpetrate a war of aggression and yet be utterly blameless for every death and every action.

This isn't even getting into the fact that by using this analogy the Catalyst completely and totally invalidates every single thing we ever learned about the Reapers since they are nothing more than mindless drones doing the bidding of an AI on a space station. How can Legion say their minds are complex when they are literally lead around by the nose with no free will or independent thought of any kind simply mindless obeying like a simple machine.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

General User wrote...

The fire burns, huh? Then I suppose that would make the Catalyst an arsonist.

Seems that he's compelled to burn stuff. (yes, "I've seen leprechaun. He told be to burn things" )

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Except that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to bring peace and consensus between organics and synthetics.
One minute it's saying it's perverted it's own directives, the next it's saying it is doing what it was created for.

I HATE THIS THING SO MUCH.

Which is why it would make for a great villain provided you didn't have to destroy EDI and the geth. You aren't supposed to agree with the villain's conclusions.

Yeah. So?
Do you think I agree with Sovereign?
No. The difference between Sovereign and the Catalyst is Sovereign is credible whereas the Catalyst is a little brat who shifts responsibility for and lies about it's actions.

[CronoDragoon]

Zardoc wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think what the Catalyst is saying here is that it is a computer program designed to do one thing: find the most efficient solution to preserving organic and synthetic life. Once it concludes what that solution is, it will do it, period, without any wavering or thoughts of moral consequences. It cannot think in the way that sentient beings think. Its own nature prevents it from choosing any solution but the most efficient one.

Except that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to bring peace and consensus between organics and synthetics.
One minute it's saying it's perverted it's own directives, the next it's saying it is doing what it was created for.

I HATE THIS THING SO MUCH.

Which is why it would make for a great villain provided you didn't have to destroy EDI and the geth. You aren't supposed to agree with the villain's conclusions.

Yeah, but a villain is supposed to atleast make some ounce of sense. Unless it's the Joker.

I am trying to say that the Catalyst does make sense, not in a "he's right" way, but rather a "I can see how, without any moral programming or explicit instructions otherwise, he would reach the conclusion that Reaper-ifying people is the best way to forever preserve their data and history." We don't agree with him because it is obviously not what the creators wanted him to do and his methods are horrifying. But again, he's the villain, so so what? Destroy is the refusal of his point of view. That EDI/the geth are sacrificed makes the ending FEEL like we aren't triumphant in our moral views over his.

[Blacklash93]

Going from Sovereign's clear contempt for organic life and even other synthetics to the Reapers turning out to consider themselves incredibly considerate and altruisitic for life everywhere after all was the mistake. The Catalyst is just the face of this senseless and hopeless development.