463 réponses à ce sujet

[Salfin]

You don't understand.

[sth128]

Naugi wrote...

In this sense I can fully understand saying they are not at war. I see it like saying a pest control officer is at war with vermin. Is he? The rats could turn around and say 'you dont call this war??!' but he would just shrug, put down his rat poison and go on to his next job.

Funny you should say that. One of the propaganda used in war (and more recently in African civil conflicts) is to call their foes "cockroaches".

If you think your foe beneath you, you will have no problem squashing them.

Are you saying if we assume our enemies are less than we are, then we are perfectly justified to slaughter them all? That their protests mean nothing and we should not concern ourselves with such matters?

I see a future genocidal dictator in the making.

[Tirranek]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

It's not a question of just or unjust. It's about their fundemental nature. Just because you can't blame fire doesn't mean you shouldn't fight it.

[Rasofe]

Naugi wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Of course bombs do what they do, but Reapers aren't just bombs or fires. They are bombs and fires that choose to destroy. They aren't natural, and they aren't fires.

Its irrelevant what Reapers are, if they do what they are told / programmed / designed to do without having decided to do it themselves then they are just performing a base single minded function (destroy) in the same way fire and bombs do. They dont choose to destroy. They are built to destroy and it is their sole purpose.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

Still think youre confusing the one who pulls the trigger with the bullet.

That's taking it way out of context. In the situation at hand, the Catalyst claims that it did all of this to preserve peace between organics and machines. Shepard can now immediately ask the question that we all wanted to ask originally - "WHAT? You don't call this a war!?" and the reply from the Catalyst is that the extinction is simply a fire that's burning and is at no conflict. Essentially, what I believe it means is that the Reaper Invasion is not so much of a War as a complete Extinction (our particular cycle being excempt considering the completely anamolous amount of casualties the Reapers suffered). It's very fallacious, but there it is.

Human war is far more emotional than anything the Reapers do. Human war involves conflict where both sides stand to lose or gain something, where both sides are invested for some reason. In particular human wars tend to feature a lot of hatred and various other human emotions, racism, whatever. The Reapers are killing machines, they are not at war in the human sense at all. They are performing their function, they are not emotionally invested or concerned with loss or gain. They simply arrive, cleanse, and leave without batting an eyelid.

In this sense I can fully understand saying they are not at war. I see it like saying a pest control officer is at war with vermin. Is he? The rats could turn around and say 'you dont call this war??!' but he would just shrug, put down his rat poison and go on to his next job.

Truthful. But the Reapers ought to care about their own casualties too, considering that they were designed to store organic life within themselves. In this particular Mass Effect cycle, the Reapers had substantive casualties in their fleet numbers. But they are so stuck in their old ways, that they still don't consider it war, and have no care for their purpose of preservation of organic life - as though cleansing it was objective 1 and preserving it was objective 2. Still, in the common sense that a war is a conflict where both sides sustain casualties, the Reaper Invasion truly is a war, even if the Reapers are too proud to see it as anything more than their glorious genocide.

[alienatedflea]

sth128 wrote...

Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

When bombs exploded over London in WW2, it was not war, it was not conflict. The bombs were simply doing what they were created to do.



^ Not war (from Catalyst's view).

Natural fire has no mind. Natural fire does not select to burn some but not others. Natural fire does not choose to come back at specific times. Likening the Reapers to fire is a depravity that distorts the very fabric of ethical meaning.

What is the difference between the cultural and ethnic genocide wiping out the entire galaxy and the cultural and ethnic genocide going on in parts of the world? Can we also justify away those killings as "cleansing fire restoring the balance"?

you caused my house to go up in flames...you are evil...not fire.  The reapers are not evil...the catalyst is..
much like:
"Don't hate the player.  Hate the game." 

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Tirranek wrote...
It's not a question of just or unjust. It's about their fundemental nature. Just because you can't blame fire doesn't mean you shouldn't fight it.

Well, its kind of a big deal becase BW made it so that you can't fight it.
Basically, they make you to bow either to madman or some non-sentient automation/natural disaster. Which is not really entertaining conclusion to epic series.
It's like making a positive game overall, then BAMM - "Natural disaster happens! Choose your ending - who suffers and in what fashion!"

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 02 juillet 2012 - 05:59 .

[Rasofe]

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

In this sense I can fully understand saying they are not at war. I see it like saying a pest control officer is at war with vermin. Is he? The rats could turn around and say 'you dont call this war??!' but he would just shrug, put down his rat poison and go on to his next job.

Funny you should say that. One of the propaganda used in war (and more recently in African civil conflicts) is to call their foes "cockroaches".

If you think your foe beneath you, you will have no problem squashing them.

Are you saying if we assume our enemies are less than we are, then we are perfectly justified to slaughter them all? That their protests mean nothing and we should not concern ourselves with such matters?

I see a future genocidal dictator in the making.

Don't be immature. Simply because we seek to understand our poorly-contrived-authored-enemy does not liken us to them.

No one claims that their actions are justified or appropriate. What we discuss is whether they are logically coherent or not. I believe them not to be. Naugi believes opposite.

This is a debate, not a duel.

[Dougy Fresh]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

[Rasofe]

alienatedflea wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?

So if I set fire to your house, it's not war, it's not conflict. It is simply doing what it was created to do.

When bombs exploded over London in WW2, it was not war, it was not conflict. The bombs were simply doing what they were created to do.



^ Not war (from Catalyst's view).

Natural fire has no mind. Natural fire does not select to burn some but not others. Natural fire does not choose to come back at specific times. Likening the Reapers to fire is a depravity that distorts the very fabric of ethical meaning.

What is the difference between the cultural and ethnic genocide wiping out the entire galaxy and the cultural and ethnic genocide going on in parts of the world? Can we also justify away those killings as "cleansing fire restoring the balance"?

you caused my house to go up in flames...you are evil...not fire.  The reapers are not evil...the catalyst is..
much like:
"Don't hate the player.  Hate the game." 

Are you sure it shouldn't be the other way around? The game was setup in a way that your opponent could beat you, but it was your opponent that actually did....

[NM_Che56]

sth128 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

No.  I am not. 

My logic is based on what the Catalyst says.  You simply either ignore it or you missed it.  The Catalyst IS the collective conscious of the Reapers.  Look it up in the vids and hear it yourself. 

They have no motives independent of the Catalyst.  They are sapient and aware, but they are not individuals.  They are a collective and the Catalyst is their nexus.  Kind of like how the Geth, prior to Rannoch, were just platforms with different perspectives, but were all Geth.

You are wrong, and here's a video proving you are wrong.

The Geth are also individuals, except they can combine their collective processing power to achieve greater intelligence, much like groups of people making better decisions because of the combined experiences and perspectives.

The Catalyst designed the "solution" and put it into (mass?) effect. He decided to "set fire" to each cycle. He is clearly NOT the fire. Saying "it's you who decided to go to war with the Reapers" is irrelevant and sidestepping the problem. We were not aware of the Catalyst's existence before the last 5 minutes.

Currently USA is at war with terrorist groups. Assuming we don't know every cell leader and financial contributor to their cause, does that mean we aren't at war with them? And that the terrorists should not be blamed for the destruction they caused?

HA! Not so fast, there, buckaroo.

Sovereign also said they have no beginning...right? LOL.  You forgot that one, eh?

All you've proven is that  individual reapers don't know the whole story of who they are and how they came to be.

You forgot the initial conversation with Legion and Shepard from ME2.
"We are Geth".


Hence Legion always said "WE" not "I".

[Rasofe]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

[NM_Che56]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...
So, do they have governing free will or not?

Apparently no, since they are only doing what they were created to do.  This is what the Catalyst says.

(Humorously: It's not like they have barbeques, company parties, or go to Disney World in between cycles). 

They harvest, hibernate, harvet, etc. 

I hardly see how you can cheapen them more than you've just described. Especially from what they were presented in ME1 and ME2.
The whole epic journey ended being fight with windmills... Or more accurately, with electric fan previous civilization left on...

I consider that a compliment.

Fans do not harvest and don't last as long as a reaper.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Master Che wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...
So, do they have governing free will or not?

Apparently no, since they are only doing what they were created to do.  This is what the Catalyst says.

(Humorously: It's not like they have barbeques, company parties, or go to Disney World in between cycles). 

They harvest, hibernate, harvet, etc. 

I hardly see how you can cheapen them more than you've just described. Especially from what they were presented in ME1 and ME2.
The whole epic journey ended being fight with windmills... Or more accurately, with electric fan previous civilization left on...

I consider that a compliment.

Fans do not harvest and don't last as long as a reaper.

Yeah, it was hell of a big fan...

[Rasofe]

Master Che wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

No.  I am not. 

My logic is based on what the Catalyst says.  You simply either ignore it or you missed it.  The Catalyst IS the collective conscious of the Reapers.  Look it up in the vids and hear it yourself. 

They have no motives independent of the Catalyst.  They are sapient and aware, but they are not individuals.  They are a collective and the Catalyst is their nexus.  Kind of like how the Geth, prior to Rannoch, were just platforms with different perspectives, but were all Geth.

You are wrong, and here's a video proving you are wrong.

The Geth are also individuals, except they can combine their collective processing power to achieve greater intelligence, much like groups of people making better decisions because of the combined experiences and perspectives.

The Catalyst designed the "solution" and put it into (mass?) effect. He decided to "set fire" to each cycle. He is clearly NOT the fire. Saying "it's you who decided to go to war with the Reapers" is irrelevant and sidestepping the problem. We were not aware of the Catalyst's existence before the last 5 minutes.

Currently USA is at war with terrorist groups. Assuming we don't know every cell leader and financial contributor to their cause, does that mean we aren't at war with them? And that the terrorists should not be blamed for the destruction they caused?

HA! Not so fast, there, buckaroo.

Sovereign also said they have no beginning...right? LOL.  You forgot that one, eh?

All you've proven is that  individual reapers don't know the whole story of who they are and how they came to be.

You forgot the initial conversation with Legion and Shepard from ME2.
"We are Geth".


Hence Legion always said "WE" not "I".

Uh, the Geth got a bit of a reboot in their story. Tali used to say they're not collective intelligences at all, but later on it became apparent - through Legion - that they behave and act more like a collosal society of entities rather than individual.

As for the reapers, see my previous post.

[Dougy Fresh]

Master Che wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

No.  I am not. 

My logic is based on what the Catalyst says.  You simply either ignore it or you missed it.  The Catalyst IS the collective conscious of the Reapers.  Look it up in the vids and hear it yourself. 

They have no motives independent of the Catalyst.  They are sapient and aware, but they are not individuals.  They are a collective and the Catalyst is their nexus.  Kind of like how the Geth, prior to Rannoch, were just platforms with different perspectives, but were all Geth.

You are wrong, and here's a video proving you are wrong.

The Geth are also individuals, except they can combine their collective processing power to achieve greater intelligence, much like groups of people making better decisions because of the combined experiences and perspectives.

The Catalyst designed the "solution" and put it into (mass?) effect. He decided to "set fire" to each cycle. He is clearly NOT the fire. Saying "it's you who decided to go to war with the Reapers" is irrelevant and sidestepping the problem. We were not aware of the Catalyst's existence before the last 5 minutes.

Currently USA is at war with terrorist groups. Assuming we don't know every cell leader and financial contributor to their cause, does that mean we aren't at war with them? And that the terrorists should not be blamed for the destruction they caused?

HA! Not so fast, there, buckaroo.

Sovereign also said they have no beginning...right? LOL.  You forgot that one, eh?

All you've proven is that  individual reapers don't know the whole story of who they are and how they came to be.

You forgot the initial conversation with Legion and Shepard from ME2.
"We are Geth".


Hence Legion always said "WE" not "I".

In ME3 at the end of the Rannoch mission, Legion did refer himself to "I", while still beloning to the collective minds of the geth. Is it no different than our system of government. Individual all working together (more or less) for a single bodied idea?

[Dessalines]

Lol, I am still trying to figure out if the Crucible is just a powersource, then the Citadel already has the ability to control, destroy, and synthesize.

[Tirranek]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Tirranek wrote...
It's not a question of just or unjust. It's about their fundemental nature. Just because you can't blame fire doesn't mean you shouldn't fight it.

Well, its kind of a big deal becase BW made it so that you can't fight it.
Basically, they make you to bow either to madman or some non-sentient automation/natural disaster. Which is not really entertaining conclusion to epic series.
It's like making a positive game overall, then BAMM - "Natural disaster happens! Choose your ending - who suffers and in what fashion!"

Thing is, I really don't see that last scene as bowing at all. It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but the scene with the Catalyst made me think more of a captain surrendering their ship. Despite its lack of emotion (fear) at Shepard being there, its clear every option makes it redundant. The hold up comes from whether you think the relative lack of animosity or fear stops it from being a victory.

[sth128]

Naugi wrote...

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Everything I said is based on fact. You seem unable to grasp the points I'm making.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time...

Look up Nuremberg Trials. "Just following orders" does not excuse you from your actions.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Not my problem if you want to bet on concepts you came up with having no factual basis. Harbinger felt annoyance toward Shepard. Why you'd think old Harby is incapable of feeling other emotions is beyond me.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Yeah... Okee. Good luck with that. Where I come from manslaughter is a crime because such actions violate the principle that life is precious. Killing someone, even by accident, means you are guilty of reckless endangerment and destruction: it is a crime of disregard for life.

But I'm sure where you're from, manslaughter is a crime because of some arbitrary necessity to punish people. You are the one who's confusing manslaughter with accidental deaths due to causes beyond control.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions.

So when you don't feel guilty, it's okay to commit genocide. Right.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ...

LOL. Reapers are like sharks.

[Rasofe]

No, that was special, and it was no longer a part of the collective mind. Evidence suggests that the Geth are in non.destroy endings individual AI's like EDI, who no longer need that plan for that huge ass megastructure.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Dessalines wrote...

Lol, I am still trying to figure out if the Crucible is just a powersource, then the Citadel already has the ability to control, destroy, and synthesize.

You can read above as some people rationalize it:
- yes, the citadel already has all these abilities. all it needs a power source
- yes, crucible was anticipated as power source
- why catalyst did it? because he was programmed to, and had no choice.

[Dougy Fresh]

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

Interesting analogy, but it makes sense. 

But what I was asking is that do you believe that each Reaper on its own is an individual.

[Naugi]

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

In this sense I can fully understand saying they are not at war. I see it like saying a pest control officer is at war with vermin. Is he? The rats could turn around and say 'you dont call this war??!' but he would just shrug, put down his rat poison and go on to his next job.

Funny you should say that. One of the propaganda used in war (and more recently in African civil conflicts) is to call their foes "cockroaches".

If you think your foe beneath you, you will have no problem squashing them.

Are you saying if we assume our enemies are less than we are, then we are perfectly justified to slaughter them all? That their protests mean nothing and we should not concern ourselves with such matters?

I see a future genocidal dictator in the making.

No because again you're putting human emotions where they dont belong. We are talking about a pest control officer killing vermin, not human beings killing human beings and dehumaizing that act by calling the enemy cockroaches. That is exactly the kind of human behaviour involved in a human war.

There is a VAST difference between the two scenarios, so much so that I cant see how you can even link the two.

I say a pest officer isnt at war with the vermin he kills and you conclude i'm a future genocidal dictator?? LOL, I cant decide if that's funny or totally insane. Are you serious? Are you just being a troll or do you really not get the difference?

My point, if there is any reason to continue talking to you when you're being so obnoxious, is that the Reapers dont desire or like killing anymore than a pest control officer does, its their function.

Anyway, other people have just quoted multiple times exactly what the Catalyst says about him giving the Reapers a function, so the argument is pretty much over and you lost already. Continue to make things up and be insulting all you like, its usually what people do when they cant accept they are wrong.

Modifié par Naugi, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[Rasofe]

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Everything I said is based on fact. You seem unable to grasp the points I'm making.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time...

Look up Nuremberg Trials. "Just following orders" does not excuse you from your actions.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Not my problem if you want to bet on concepts you came up with having no factual basis. Harbinger felt annoyance toward Shepard. Why you'd think old Harby is incapable of feeling other emotions is beyond me.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Yeah... Okee. Good luck with that. Where I come from manslaughter is a crime because such actions violate the principle that life is precious. Killing someone, even by accident, means you are guilty of reckless endangerment and destruction: it is a crime of disregard for life.

But I'm sure where you're from, manslaughter is a crime because of some arbitrary necessity to punish people. You are the one who's confusing manslaughter with accidental deaths due to causes beyond control.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions.

So when you don't feel guilty, it's okay to commit genocide. Right.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ...

LOL. Reapers are like sharks.

Quit spouting nonsense at people, it's unpleasant.
First of all, there's fair assumption that the Reapers feel no guilt judging by both their actions, their motives, and their speeches. Harbinger in particular illuminates Shepard that is the Harbinger of their Destiny/Ascension and so is doing the absolutely right thing in every sense of the word.

DOES IT MEAN IT'S RIGHT? NO. NO ONE SAID SO. So Stop Being So Rude.

[Rasofe]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

Interesting analogy, but it makes sense. 

But what I was asking is that do you believe that each Reaper on its own is an individual.

Yes. I do. Harbinger and Sovereign repeatedly referred to themselves in first person.
Interesting fact that was never fully explained. Sovereign apparently called itself Nazarra, but instead choose to be named Sovereign by Saren. Why?

[NM_Che56]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Tirranek wrote...
It's not a question of just or unjust. It's about their fundemental nature. Just because you can't blame fire doesn't mean you shouldn't fight it.

Well, its kind of a big deal becase BW made it so that you can't fight it.
Basically, they make you to bow either to madman or some non-sentient automation/natural disaster. Which is not really entertaining conclusion to epic series.
It's like making a positive game overall, then BAMM - "Natural disaster happens! Choose your ending - who suffers and in what fashion!"

You do fight it.  You can defeat the reapers (i.e., stopping them from harvesting organics).  The question is at what cost. If you half assed played the game and zipped through it like Gears of War, sure you could stop the Reapers, but at the cost of letting everything burn.  If you picked destroy, as an example, but you wanted to keep everyone alive and save earth, then you needed at least 2650 EMS or 5300 War Assets if you don't use ME3: Datapad, Infiltrator or Multiplayer. 

Like everything else in true life, you don't always get to dictate the terms.  You have to make sacrifices.  That's one of the underlying themes in ME that people tend to lose sight of.  Going back all the way to picking Ashley or Kaiden or deciding whether or not to send help to the Destiny Assension during the final battle.  It is only appropriate that this theme appears in this way in the final part of the trilogy.