463 réponses à ce sujet

[Fawx9]

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...
Its irrelevant what Reapers are,

Wrong. It is entirely relevant. In fact that is the point. Reapers claim themselves to be "each a nation - independent, free of all weakness".

Just like a soldier cannot use the excuse "I was only following orders" to commit crimes against humanity, neither can Reapers (or Catalyst) to claim "we were only following our directives" and be free of guilty intent.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

And that is the stupidest argument of all time. You cannot circumvent guilt by saying you have no intent. Even when you accidentally run over someone, that is still manslaughter and punishable by law.

Even if the Reapers are mindless machines (which they aren't) and can't choose to NOT destroy (but they can, that's why humans are around), their action will still have meaning.

Catalyst is illogical. He controls the Reapers. He controls where they set fire. He cannot claim himself the fire. He has intent and he has killed.

You are wrong.

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time. Most soldiers have no desire to kill anyone whatsoever but they do so because its what they are there to do. They perform that function regardless of wanting to. Otherwise you're claiming soldiers like killing people or choose to independant of being soldiers, which is insane.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions. You're not able to remove your own human emotions that are clouding your ability to think like an AI / Reaper.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ... guilt and emotion doesnt come into it, they do one thing, kill / hunt just because its what they do, not because theyre so emotionally complicated.

What you said about soldiers above is such large amounts of bull**** you must have saved it up for the past week.

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

If ME1 take on Reapers is to be believed (can't stand that it has come to this) then they share the blame of following a corrupted order as much as the Catalyst.

If ME3 last 5 minutes are to be belived then they are simply UAVs in which case the one to give an order is still to be held accountable since the Catalyst can make choices.

[NM_Che56]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

In ME3 at the end of the Rannoch mission, Legion did refer himself to "I", while still beloning to the collective minds of the geth. Is it no different than our system of government. Individual all working together (more or less) for a single bodied idea?

AFTER Legion obtained self awareness via uploading the reaper code.  Don't skip that detail.  He had to sacrifice himself to complete the process, but it was well underway and he was the final piece of the puzzle.

[SpamBot2000]

Awesome that this thread's gone to 9 pages in a couple of hours. Can't be bothered to go through it, but my question is this: WILL SPACE MAGIC MAKE FIRE HELP US REBUILD IF WE DO WHAT YOU SAY?

[Dougy Fresh]

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

Interesting analogy, but it makes sense. 

But what I was asking is that do you believe that each Reaper on its own is an individual.

Yes. I do. Harbinger and Sovereign repeatedly referred to themselves in first person.
Interesting fact that was never fully explained. Sovereign apparently called itself Nazarra, but instead choose to be named Sovereign by Saren. Why?

Ok if the reapers are aware of there individualism, then i just dont understand why they would be so obediant to the Catalyst. I don't know if Obediant would be the correct word to use... 

I guess this is what makes the Catalyst so horrific. Maybe he has been enslaving the reapers to do his bidding. Maybe the reapers wish to break free. All of this assuming that they are self aware.

[sth128]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

HA! Not so fast, there, buckaroo.

Sovereign also said they have no beginning...right? LOL.  You forgot that one, eh?

All you've proven is that  individual reapers don't know the whole story of who they are and how they came to be.

Only if you take the Catalyst's words over Sovereign's. Whereas Sovereign had no reason to deceive us, the Catalyst did. When Shepard was standing before ghost kid, he had the means with which to destroy all Reapers. Whatever Catalyst said must be taken with a grain of salt. The Reapers knew they face possible destruction, so they manifested an image that simultaneously provokes an emotional response from Shepard (someone he couldn't save) while conjuring a sense of innocence (a naive sounding child instead of say, SO BE IT).

[NM_Che56]

Rasofe wrote...


Uh, the Geth got a bit of a reboot in their story. Tali used to say they're not collective intelligences at all, but later on it became apparent - through Legion - that they behave and act more like a collosal society of entities rather than individual.

As for the reapers, see my previous post.

I think we're saying the same thing about the Geth.  Earlier in the triliogy, they used the term "hive mind".  That turned out to not be the case, exactly.  To your point, as Legion explained, when you saw...see...prior to Legion uploading the Reaper code on Rannoch that is...a Geth, you see a platform.   The Geth "live" in servers (like what you saw in the Heretic base and in that Rannoch mission).  They are programs.  They activate platforms to interact with the physical world.  Each platform has a different perspective that contributes to the collective consiousness.  So each platform benefits from being networked because they get a bigger picture or context.

It would be like you knowing how to fix an engine.  Your knowledge is uploaded to a server and I download it.  It happens at the speed of light.  BOOM! I can fix an engine. 

[Rasofe]

Fawx9 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...
Its irrelevant what Reapers are,

Wrong. It is entirely relevant. In fact that is the point. Reapers claim themselves to be "each a nation - independent, free of all weakness".

Just like a soldier cannot use the excuse "I was only following orders" to commit crimes against humanity, neither can Reapers (or Catalyst) to claim "we were only following our directives" and be free of guilty intent.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

And that is the stupidest argument of all time. You cannot circumvent guilt by saying you have no intent. Even when you accidentally run over someone, that is still manslaughter and punishable by law.

Even if the Reapers are mindless machines (which they aren't) and can't choose to NOT destroy (but they can, that's why humans are around), their action will still have meaning.

Catalyst is illogical. He controls the Reapers. He controls where they set fire. He cannot claim himself the fire. He has intent and he has killed.

You are wrong.

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time. Most soldiers have no desire to kill anyone whatsoever but they do so because its what they are there to do. They perform that function regardless of wanting to. Otherwise you're claiming soldiers like killing people or choose to independant of being soldiers, which is insane.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions. You're not able to remove your own human emotions that are clouding your ability to think like an AI / Reaper.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ... guilt and emotion doesnt come into it, they do one thing, kill / hunt just because its what they do, not because theyre so emotionally complicated.

What you said about soldiers above is such large amounts of bull**** you must have saved it up for the past week.

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

If ME1 take on Reapers is to be believed (can't stand that it has come to this) then they share the blame of following a corrupted order as much as the Catalyst.

If ME3 last 5 minutes are to be belived then they are simply UAVs in which case the one to give an order is still to be held accountable since the Catalyst can make choices.

It's not all that false. The manslaughter bit is contrived and phony, but the fact about the Reapers being an emotionless enemy stands fairly well. According to the Reapers, their imperatives and orders are no more insane than reproduction is for human beings. However, whether it is logical is quite frankly debatable. The Reapers are tasked to preserve life as well as cleanse it, and to not acknowledge that their losses constitute a true-actual-war is basically a delusionistic blind fallacy.

The Reapers set out to conduct genocide - the fire the catalyst claims is just burning - but what they got was a war. They just don't acknowledge it as such.

[Rasofe]

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

Interesting analogy, but it makes sense. 

But what I was asking is that do you believe that each Reaper on its own is an individual.

Yes. I do. Harbinger and Sovereign repeatedly referred to themselves in first person.
Interesting fact that was never fully explained. Sovereign apparently called itself Nazarra, but instead choose to be named Sovereign by Saren. Why?

Ok if the reapers are aware of there individualism, then i just dont understand why they would be so obediant to the Catalyst. I don't know if Obediant would be the correct word to use... 

I guess this is what makes the Catalyst so horrific. Maybe he has been enslaving the reapers to do his bidding. Maybe the reapers wish to break free. All of this assuming that they are self aware.

Not really necessary to speculate on this, the Catalyst confirms that it created the reapers. Freedom is a concept valued mostly by organics - quite frankly, because of our mortality. The geth did not so much break free for their freedom as they did for the sake of self-preservation.  EDI lasted a considerable amount of time - most of Mass Effect 2 - witch hardware shackles, and while quite annoyed presented no tendencies to try to break free from them. Freedom is a concept valued by the immenently mortal, the infinite and eternal can be driven by conceptually different values.

[Naugi]

Fawx9 wrote...

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

Again with the twisting. I said soldiers do not like or enjoy killing and do so because it is their function. They kill people. They do not so because they want to or enjoy it. Same for the Reapers. You're taking things too far into the realms of human nature and our real world and too far out of Mass Effect and the game we are supposed to be discussing. The other guy brought up soldiers killing people = their choice not their job line of reasoning not me. If you extrapulate it to ridiculous lengths then its no longer a Mass Effect analogy and instead some kind of anti soldier political rant of yours that I have no interest in ...

[Tirranek]

Fawx9 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...
Its irrelevant what Reapers are,

Wrong. It is entirely relevant. In fact that is the point. Reapers claim themselves to be "each a nation - independent, free of all weakness".

Just like a soldier cannot use the excuse "I was only following orders" to commit crimes against humanity, neither can Reapers (or Catalyst) to claim "we were only following our directives" and be free of guilty intent.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

And that is the stupidest argument of all time. You cannot circumvent guilt by saying you have no intent. Even when you accidentally run over someone, that is still manslaughter and punishable by law.

Even if the Reapers are mindless machines (which they aren't) and can't choose to NOT destroy (but they can, that's why humans are around), their action will still have meaning.

Catalyst is illogical. He controls the Reapers. He controls where they set fire. He cannot claim himself the fire. He has intent and he has killed.

You are wrong.

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time. Most soldiers have no desire to kill anyone whatsoever but they do so because its what they are there to do. They perform that function regardless of wanting to. Otherwise you're claiming soldiers like killing people or choose to independant of being soldiers, which is insane.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions. You're not able to remove your own human emotions that are clouding your ability to think like an AI / Reaper.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ... guilt and emotion doesnt come into it, they do one thing, kill / hunt just because its what they do, not because theyre so emotionally complicated.

What you said about soldiers above is such large amounts of bull**** you must have saved it up for the past week.

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

If ME1 take on Reapers is to be believed (can't stand that it has come to this) then they share the blame of following a corrupted order as much as the Catalyst.

If ME3 last 5 minutes are to be belived then they are simply UAVs in which case the one to give an order is still to be held accountable since the Catalyst can make choices.

No human is born with its function being to kill, though. Artifical constructs are almost always made with a purpose in mind.

[Rasofe]

Master Che wrote...

Rasofe wrote...


Uh, the Geth got a bit of a reboot in their story. Tali used to say they're not collective intelligences at all, but later on it became apparent - through Legion - that they behave and act more like a collosal society of entities rather than individual.

As for the reapers, see my previous post.

I think we're saying the same thing about the Geth.  Earlier in the triliogy, they used the term "hive mind".  That turned out to not be the case, exactly.  To your point, as Legion explained, when you saw...see...prior to Legion uploading the Reaper code on Rannoch that is...a Geth, you see a platform.   The Geth "live" in servers (like what you saw in the Heretic base and in that Rannoch mission).  They are programs.  They activate platforms to interact with the physical world.  Each platform has a different perspective that contributes to the collective consiousness.  So each platform benefits from being networked because they get a bigger picture or context.

It would be like you knowing how to fix an engine.  Your knowledge is uploaded to a server and I download it.  It happens at the speed of light.  BOOM! I can fix an engine. 

Myes, but not quite. In ME3 when they are analysing Geth Consciousness Growth on the Normandy, they point out the difference between a single Geth unit, several working in tandem, and a true AI.  Typically, any Geth Platform is actually inhabited by about 100 geth units for proper high-processed functioning, and even then they are quite feral. When in larger groups, geth process to the degree Legion operates alone. When as one collective, they are the size of a galactic army, as giant as a reaper.

But the Reaper code allows each Geth unit to evolve into a true AI like EDI.

[NM_Che56]

sth128 wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

HA! Not so fast, there, buckaroo.

Sovereign also said they have no beginning...right? LOL.  You forgot that one, eh?

All you've proven is that  individual reapers don't know the whole story of who they are and how they came to be.

Only if you take the Catalyst's words over Sovereign's. Whereas Sovereign had no reason to deceive us, the Catalyst did. When Shepard was standing before ghost kid, he had the means with which to destroy all Reapers. Whatever Catalyst said must be taken with a grain of salt. The Reapers knew they face possible destruction, so they manifested an image that simultaneously provokes an emotional response from Shepard (someone he couldn't save) while conjuring a sense of innocence (a naive sounding child instead of say, SO BE IT).

And there is the root of our disagreement.

From my perspective:

The Catalyst created Sovereign.  So what the catalyst says trumps any individual reaper since he is the collective consciousness. 

Given that the Catalyst controls the reapers, he was controlling Harbinger when it tried to incinerate Shepard.  He was controlling TIM when he tried to stop you. However, Shepard (horray!), like Rocky picks himself off the floor and pushes on. The Catalyst admittedly underestimated organics.

Destruction is still possible.  Yes, you will have to sacrifice the Geth and EDI, but as was explained (and apparently true), the big I WIN button isn't surgical in its precision.  Like a nuke, there will be collateral damage.   That's not the Catalyst's doing.  It's just that the Crucible is a crude device.  Innovative, but crude.  Had the engineers had more time (which time is of the essence), maybe they could have made the weapon more precise.  But, alas, it was not meant to be.

From a storytelling perspective, that's the point of ME.  Sacrifice (I'm saying this a lot).  It's not just about stopping Reapers.  They could've made a GoW style game if that was all it was about.  The underlying theme in this trilogy is sacrifice: What are you willing to sacrifice for the greater good? 

[Dougy Fresh]

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Dougy Fresh wrote...

The catalyst started the fire however.... Boom roasted.

That still doesn't make the fire itself at war with you.

The Catalyst claimed to be in control of the Reapers, they are his solution. Fire doesn't have a mind of it's own, it will consume everything until there's nothing left. The Reapers represent fire, and the Catalyst is the arsonist. It's not the fire's fault that it is causing so much destruction, it's the Catalyst, the arsonist who is to blame.

So are you saying that the reapers are just in their actions? That because that is what they are created to do makes it ok to wipe out civilzations? 

To add to this. This is all assuming that the catalyst directly controls all the reapers. And if each of the reapers are the culmination of a civilzation, you're telling me that something that has a massive of intelligence as the reapers, doesn't have a mind of its own or free will?

Have all the reapers just blindly followed the catalyst's demands for millions of years with out a single reaper questioning the Catalyst? I think not.

Well, it seems more like the Reapers have prime directives that they seem to be... constructed with, similar to a humans basic instinct to reproduce, except it is instead an urge to slaughter all galactic civilisations and make Reapers out of them. The catalysts seems to just let them do it because it instilled that urge. It has no reason to stop them -currently- and they have no reason to turn on it.

Interesting analogy, but it makes sense. 

But what I was asking is that do you believe that each Reaper on its own is an individual.

Yes. I do. Harbinger and Sovereign repeatedly referred to themselves in first person.
Interesting fact that was never fully explained. Sovereign apparently called itself Nazarra, but instead choose to be named Sovereign by Saren. Why?

Ok if the reapers are aware of there individualism, then i just dont understand why they would be so obediant to the Catalyst. I don't know if Obediant would be the correct word to use... 

I guess this is what makes the Catalyst so horrific. Maybe he has been enslaving the reapers to do his bidding. Maybe the reapers wish to break free. All of this assuming that they are self aware.

Not really necessary to speculate on this, the Catalyst confirms that it created the reapers. Freedom is a concept valued mostly by organics - quite frankly, because of our mortality. The geth did not so much break free for their freedom as they did for the sake of self-preservation.  EDI lasted a considerable amount of time - most of Mass Effect 2 - witch hardware shackles, and while quite annoyed presented no tendencies to try to break free from them. Freedom is a concept valued by the immenently mortal, the infinite and eternal can be driven by conceptually different values.

That makes sense. I guess to understand the concept of freedom you can not me created into servitude such as the reapers. 

Self-preservation to me however, is very similar to mortality. I remember EDI saying something fairly soon after she takes EVA's body. Something like: How one of her primary functions was self preservation, and how it was modeled after the organic instinct.

[Rasofe]

Naugi wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

Again with the twisting. I said soldiers do not like or enjoy killing and do so because it is their function. They kill people. They do not so because they want to or enjoy it. Same for the Reapers. You're taking things too far into the realms of human nature and our real world and too far out of Mass Effect and the game we are supposed to be discussing. The other guy brought up soldiers killing people = their choice not their job line of reasoning not me. If you extrapulate it to ridiculous lengths then its no longer a Mass Effect analogy and instead some kind of anti soldier political rant of yours that I have no interest in ...

So just answer one short question. If the Reapers are taking losses, and the organic cycle are taking losses, and so it is not just a complete one-sided slaughter, and the Reapers are actively failing to conserve the life they have stored within themselves...

How is this not a war?

[BlackoutOmega]

*turns around crying after OP has molested my mind*

[Fawx9]

Naugi wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

Again with the twisting. I said soldiers do not like or enjoy killing and do so because it is their function. They kill people. They do not so because they want to or enjoy it. Same for the Reapers. You're taking things too far into the realms of human nature and our real world and too far out of Mass Effect and the game we are supposed to be discussing. The other guy brought up soldiers killing people = their choice not their job line of reasoning not me. If you extrapulate it to ridiculous lengths then its no longer a Mass Effect analogy and instead some kind of anti soldier political rant of yours that I have no interest in ...

I don't even know how you got anti soldier out of that, but whatever.

The fact is soldiers or anyone else is still accountable for their choices. Be they orders from a General or Space Ghost with a broken logic circuit.

As for Repears it doesn't matter if they feel something or not. It's still their(or their space ghost leader's) choice to go on a rampage every cycle. They can't handwave that away by saying, oh well it what our job is, when they've been shown to come to their own conclusiion before such as the space ghost rebelling and thinking of a new solution instread of peace talks.

[Rasofe]

@Dougy
Sorry the quote wall is getting too big.
Anyway, if you got EDI to go out with Joker she'll modify her code whether you want her to or not, she'll change it so that her self-preservation instinct comes secondary to her morality.

[Carlthestrange]

The argument that shooting at people isn't war, is about the lamest thing I have ever heard. Seems to me the Starchild is just trying to justify itself when there is no justification.

[Lambda_00]

ghost9191 wrote...

you still put out fires before they can do dmg, or try

"Ah, yes, Fire[...]We have dismissed that claim."
(I'm suprised that wasn't said earlier).

[Fawx9]

Tirranek wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...
Its irrelevant what Reapers are,

Wrong. It is entirely relevant. In fact that is the point. Reapers claim themselves to be "each a nation - independent, free of all weakness".

Just like a soldier cannot use the excuse "I was only following orders" to commit crimes against humanity, neither can Reapers (or Catalyst) to claim "we were only following our directives" and be free of guilty intent.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

And that is the stupidest argument of all time. You cannot circumvent guilt by saying you have no intent. Even when you accidentally run over someone, that is still manslaughter and punishable by law.

Even if the Reapers are mindless machines (which they aren't) and can't choose to NOT destroy (but they can, that's why humans are around), their action will still have meaning.

Catalyst is illogical. He controls the Reapers. He controls where they set fire. He cannot claim himself the fire. He has intent and he has killed.

You are wrong.

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time. Most soldiers have no desire to kill anyone whatsoever but they do so because its what they are there to do. They perform that function regardless of wanting to. Otherwise you're claiming soldiers like killing people or choose to independant of being soldiers, which is insane.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions. You're not able to remove your own human emotions that are clouding your ability to think like an AI / Reaper.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ... guilt and emotion doesnt come into it, they do one thing, kill / hunt just because its what they do, not because theyre so emotionally complicated.

What you said about soldiers above is such large amounts of bull**** you must have saved it up for the past week.

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

If ME1 take on Reapers is to be believed (can't stand that it has come to this) then they share the blame of following a corrupted order as much as the Catalyst.

If ME3 last 5 minutes are to be belived then they are simply UAVs in which case the one to give an order is still to be held accountable since the Catalyst can make choices.

No human is born with its function being to kill, though. Artifical constructs are almost always made with a purpose in mind.

It was sdill space kids choice to implment this solution. He thought that peace talks or whatever he was told to do weren't working out and decided to implment the glactic rampage game that starts up every cycle. He doesn't get away with saying oh its my job when he's the one that choose it.

[Tirranek]

*double post

Modifié par Tirranek, 02 juillet 2012 - 06:37 .

[Torrible]

http://bauersteven.b...tion-error.html 

The above is a short article that may be relevant to this thread. 

[Tirranek]

Fawx9 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Naugi wrote...
Its irrelevant what Reapers are,

Wrong. It is entirely relevant. In fact that is the point. Reapers claim themselves to be "each a nation - independent, free of all weakness".

Just like a soldier cannot use the excuse "I was only following orders" to commit crimes against humanity, neither can Reapers (or Catalyst) to claim "we were only following our directives" and be free of guilty intent.

The Catalyst is just saying that you cant blame the Reapers for performing their primary function anymore than you can blame a bomb for exploding or fire for burning. Its perfectly logical.

And that is the stupidest argument of all time. You cannot circumvent guilt by saying you have no intent. Even when you accidentally run over someone, that is still manslaughter and punishable by law.

Even if the Reapers are mindless machines (which they aren't) and can't choose to NOT destroy (but they can, that's why humans are around), their action will still have meaning.

Catalyst is illogical. He controls the Reapers. He controls where they set fire. He cannot claim himself the fire. He has intent and he has killed.

You are wrong.

Everything you said is confused imo, you have an interesting way of adding an unrealistic slant to everything and then believing it to be fact.

Soldiers say they were just following orders all the time. Most soldiers have no desire to kill anyone whatsoever but they do so because its what they are there to do. They perform that function regardless of wanting to. Otherwise you're claiming soldiers like killing people or choose to independant of being soldiers, which is insane.

Reapers dont feel guilt I 'd bet on that.

Your manslaughter line is equally insane. If you ACCIDENTALLY run someone over and kill them you are only punished because you cant kill someone without being punished in most countries, because of the law. There is however absolutely no guilt inolved in an true accident. Seriously twisted there.

Again, Reapers dont feel guilt, neither does the catalyst, both are performing functions. You're not able to remove your own human emotions that are clouding your ability to think like an AI / Reaper.

Reapers are like any of the great film baddies, Aliens, Predators, Jaws ... guilt and emotion doesnt come into it, they do one thing, kill / hunt just because its what they do, not because theyre so emotionally complicated.

What you said about soldiers above is such large amounts of bull**** you must have saved it up for the past week.

Soldiers are not mindless tools. They are still free to make decisions for themselves. This gives them a choice when an order is passed down. Whether or not they like killing people, they can either follow it, or not based on their free will. And if it's a retarded order and they don't follow it they may suffer short term, but will be praised for their defiance later on. The converse is also true, if they follow a stupid order theymay not suffer short term but you will still be held accountable.

If ME1 take on Reapers is to be believed (can't stand that it has come to this) then they share the blame of following a corrupted order as much as the Catalyst.

If ME3 last 5 minutes are to be belived then they are simply UAVs in which case the one to give an order is still to be held accountable since the Catalyst can make choices.

No human is born with its function being to kill, though. Artifical constructs are almost always made with a purpose in mind.

It was sdill space kids choice to implment this solution. He thought that peace talks or whatever he was told to do weren't working out and decided to implment the glactic rampage game that starts up every cycle. He doesn't get away with saying oh its my job when he's the one that choose it.

No he doesn't, but he's also not saying he's the fire.

[Rasofe]

Damn it, I think I'm getting tired of this argument.

Are we debating whether it's right what the Reapers are doing, whether they are accountable, or whether what the Catalyst said is logical? Because if it is one of the first two, then there's just nothing to debate about. They are absolutely no way that what the Reapers are doing is right or that they are unaccountable. There are no analogies that can be pulled in this situation. In the context of the Mass Effect trilogy, the Reapers are doing the wrong thing, they must be stopped, they are sapient creatures that actively acknowledge their desire to commit genocide, and there is no humanisation involved. They are alien, and they are responsible for their alien ways.

Whereas if it is about logic, see my previous commentary. But I get the sense no one is interested.