52 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

So a guy with a Jacob avatar is worried about Garrus/Tali being more popular than Miranda/Jack?

[Stalker]

Considering their role in the actual game, I was pleasantly surprised they were even mentioned. Though that was just because of my very low expectations.

It was very devious to say that people get more time and a better goodbye with their LI and in fact nothing has changed. I get the impression BioWare has already stored us Miranda/Jack/Thane/Jacob-romancers into the "wrong chosen"-shelf.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Like I said, debatable in its accuracy, but I take their roles in the game to confirm it somewhat. Popularity seems to have at least some effect on their role in-game, what with Liara being the most popular LI and having a massive amount of game time, Morinth being the least popular squadmate from ME2 by a mile and consequently not even making a true appearance in-game, Jacob being the least favorite of all LIs and essentially having his romance destroyed... Not to mention the fact that Miranda is undoubtedly the most popular of the four new-to-ME2 LIs and she also got the biggest romance arc of all of them (and was the only one to get a true cutscene).

After ME3 it seems like a lot of people are saying, "I love Jack now!" But if you remember when ME2 came out, she was pretty unpopular; a lot of people were turned off by her attitude, her look and her swearing. So the fact that she was one of the female characters with the shortest romance arc doesn't really surprise me, but it does make me sad that people didn't look past the exterior and give her a chance.

[Stalker]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Like I said, debatable in its accuracy, but I take their roles in the game to confirm it somewhat. Popularity seems to have at least some effect on their role in-game, what with Liara being the most popular LI and having a massive amount of game time, Morinth being the least popular squadmate from ME2 by a mile and consequently not even making a true appearance in-game, Jacob being the least favorite of all LIs and essentially having his romance destroyed... Not to mention the fact that Miranda is undoubtedly the most popular of the four new-to-ME2 LIs and she also got the biggest romance arc of all of them (and was the only one to get a true cutscene).

After ME3 it seems like a lot of people are saying, "I love Jack now!" But if you remember when ME2 came out, she was pretty unpopular; a lot of people were turned off by her attitude, her look and her swearing. So the fact that she was one of the female characters with the shortest romance arc doesn't really surprise me, but it does make me sad that people didn't look past the exterior and give her a chance.

A sequel should not turn out to be popularity-contest. ME3 clearly turned out to be one. 
What likely happened in BW-HQ:
- Liara has the most fans? "Let her find the weapon that will destroy all Reapers. Doesn't matter she's the Shadow-Broker! Get her on the Normandy!"
- Miranda has only the 6th most fans? "Well, we won't use her in the Cerberus arc then. A small family cameo will do." 

I am of the opinion that's bad writing right there. They ranked the importance of characters in the plot after the popularity, clearly praising certain characters and leaving others on the track... regardless of any sense it would have made.


I understand that they want to satisfy as many people as possible with that technique, but it doesn't work out when you kick everyone in the guts who is not with the majority.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

I think probably another factor was not just how much certain characters were liked, but also how many characters were actively disliked and by extension were killed in the SM (offering less reward for including them in-game). Even ones that were liked but still died a lot in the SM seemed to have smaller roles in ME3.

For instance, Mordin was very popular yet many people had problems with him dying on the SM. I'd guess he's probably one of the characters with the highest chance of not making it to ME3 just because the guy would not stay alive. This might have had something to do with his not being a squadmate.

Jacob, likewise was sent in the vents by a lot of people because he volunteered. I could also imagine people who might want casualties in the SM turning him into the sacrificial lamb simply for being the least interesting.

Then you have Miranda and Jack who are extremely divisive characters. Some people have a problem with NPCs that don't fawn all over their PCs. Some resented Miranda for being the 'poster girl' as well as because she has the highest survivability, so they went out of their way to get her killed. It's not hard to imagine those two with stronger, more antagonistic personalities (at least, at first) would be characters that some players might actively try to get killed. You hear it all the time on the boards, "I don't like (insert character here). Good thing they're dead, lol!"

In contrast, Garrus and Tali seem to have fewer haters. They're both friendly, loyal to your cause from the beginning and agree with Shepard on basically everything. Even people who may not like them or find them interesting may not have a reason to dislike them because they're both fairly agreeable.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:36 .

[MattFini]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

After ME3 it seems like a lot of people are saying, "I love Jack now!" But if you remember when ME2 came out, she was pretty unpopular; a lot of people were turned off by her attitude, her look and her swearing. So the fact that she was one of the female characters with the shortest romance arc doesn't really surprise me, but it does make me sad that people didn't look past the exterior and give her a chance.

I noticed this too.  But I'm glad people have come around.  Better late than never. 

[TheImmortalBeaver]

Romance-wise, I've liked Jack since ME2, but I heard that she had almost no role in ME3 so I'll admit that I created a different game where I didn't romance her for my first playthrough of ME3. Miranda had a pretty good arc too, but I abstained for the same reason: little involvement in ME3. So, I certainly wouldn't mind some expansionary DLC for their romances in ME3.

Couldn't care less about Tali/Garrus romances. I find them to be too much like family to want to pursue them romantically.

I did have a quick question though: Do Miranda/Jack show up in the memorial scene if they were a LI? I can't find anything confirming or denying it. I'm assuming not given that this thread exists, but I would like confirmation if anyone would be so kind.

EDIT: Nevermind. Found confirmation that they don't show up. I mean, it makes sense I guess, but it still sucks.

Modifié par Misterpinky0, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .

[S.A.K]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Not surprising at all. Liara is BW's pet and they wanted ppl to romance her. She can be romanced by both male and female Sheps, She is unkillable till the end and you can start a new romance with her in ME3 whilel Garrus, Tali and rest of the ME2 squad are not even an option to new players. Sometimes I really hate Bioware favorism to Liara. Damn, if she was a squad mate in ME2 I might have killed her in the suicide mission.<_<
edit: made a small spelling correction.

Modifié par S.A.K, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:16 .

[Han Shot First]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Like I said, debatable in its accuracy, but I take their roles in the game to confirm it somewhat. Popularity seems to have at least some effect on their role in-game, what with Liara being the most popular LI and having a massive amount of game time, Morinth being the least popular squadmate from ME2 by a mile and consequently not even making a true appearance in-game, Jacob being the least favorite of all LIs and essentially having his romance destroyed... Not to mention the fact that Miranda is undoubtedly the most popular of the four new-to-ME2 LIs and she also got the biggest romance arc of all of them (and was the only one to get a true cutscene).

After ME3 it seems like a lot of people are saying, "I love Jack now!" But if you remember when ME2 came out, she was pretty unpopular; a lot of people were turned off by her attitude, her look and her swearing. So the fact that she was one of the female characters with the shortest romance arc doesn't really surprise me, but it does make me sad that people didn't look past the exterior and give her a chance.

A sequel should not turn out to be popularity-contest. ME3 clearly turned out to be one. 
What likely happened in BW-HQ:
- Liara has the most fans? "Let her find the weapon that will destroy all Reapers. Doesn't matter she's the Shadow-Broker! Get her on the Normandy!"
- Miranda has only the 6th most fans? "Well, we won't use her in the Cerberus arc then. A small family cameo will do." 

I am of the opinion that's bad writing right there. They ranked the importance of characters in the plot after the popularity, clearly praising certain characters and leaving others on the track... regardless of any sense it would have made.

While Miranda and her past ties to Cerberus were under utilized in Mass Effect 3, I think you are tilting at windmills a bit in criticizing Liara's role in Mass Effect 3, in that there were reasons beyond her popularity for bringing her back in a large role. That isn't to say that fan popularity didn't play a role, as her being the most popular LI probably did factor into Bioware's decision to bring her back in a major role. Just that it wasn't the only factor...

The two most important squadmates going into Mass Effect 3 should have been Liara and Miranda. Liara because she was Shadow Broker, and Miranda because she had been a high ranking officer in Cerberus, and TIM was going to be ME3's Saren.  They both should have had a large role, rather than an either/or scenario.

If Miranda was sidelined at all in favor of another character, it was either half of Team Dextro. They had already been squadmates in two games, and going into Mass Effect 3 neither really had a reason as far as the plot is concerned, to return in a major role. Both returned as full squadmates because of fan popularity alone.

I'm not complaining since I like Tali and Garrus is tied with Liara for being my favorite squadmate, but I can admit that both returned as squadmates with large roles in the game out of fan popularity alone. Unlike Liara or Miranda, neither character had anything in their backstory that was tied heavily into the plot or the fate of the galaxy, going into ME3.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:06 .

[Stalker]

I am of the opinion that Liara was just as much for popularity as Garrus and Tali.
I just don't complain about Team Dextro, because they aren't slap-in-your-face canon LI. They are ME2-like squadmates where it's your own choice how deep you engage with them.

There is clear evidence for Liara being forced into the squad for popularity and that is exactly her role as the Shadow Broker (which I disapproved with in ME2 already). She was the big Shadow Broker, busy with all of the galaxies' information and because that doesn't work with being part of the crew, "her ship got attacked" and that's why she's on the Normandy with basically nothing. Can't tell me that this isn't a forced spot for popularity reasons.

Now to the point that really gets on my nerves and why I think it's all popularity contest:
Liara is beng forced into several crucial plot-points in both sequels, while Miranda is completely dropped even though she was introduced with the Cerberus plot right from the beginning.


Again: I partly understand it. A lot of fans want Liara and they get Liara: very nice fan support.
I would be fine with that as long as the minorities would have had their part of the cake too. That was missing, however.

[DevilBeast]

S.A.K wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Not surprising at all. Liara is BW's pet and they wanted ppl to romance her. She can be romanced by both male and female Sheps, She is unkillable till the end and you can start a new romance with her in ME3 will Garrus, Tali and rest of the ME2 squad are not even an option to new players. Sometimes I really hate Bioware favorism to Liara. Damn, if she was a squad mate in ME2 I might have killed her in the suicide mission.<_<

It´s nice being indirectly told that the only reason you love a certain character is because you have been brainwashed by Bioware to do so:?

[Premier Bromanov]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

[S.A.K]

DevilBeast wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Not surprising at all. Liara is BW's pet and they wanted ppl to romance her. She can be romanced by both male and female Sheps, She is unkillable till the end and you can start a new romance with her in ME3 will Garrus, Tali and rest of the ME2 squad are not even an option to new players. Sometimes I really hate Bioware favorism to Liara. Damn, if she was a squad mate in ME2 I might have killed her in the suicide mission.<_<

It´s nice being indirectly told that the only reason you love a certain character is because you have been brainwashed by Bioware to do so:?

No hard feelings there. I am just saying how a new player who first played ME3 would see it. What romance options exist for a new player?

[DevilBeast]

S.A.K wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Not surprising at all. Liara is BW's pet and they wanted ppl to romance her. She can be romanced by both male and female Sheps, She is unkillable till the end and you can start a new romance with her in ME3 will Garrus, Tali and rest of the ME2 squad are not even an option to new players. Sometimes I really hate Bioware favorism to Liara. Damn, if she was a squad mate in ME2 I might have killed her in the suicide mission.<_<

It´s nice being indirectly told that the only reason you love a certain character is because you have been brainwashed by Bioware to do so:?

No hard feelings there. I am just saying how a new player who first played ME3 would see it. What romance options exist for a new player?

Hmmm... Good point.

Edit: Maybe it´s BW´s attempt at making new players by the other two games as well.
Like; if you want the full experience please give us more money and get ME1 and 2:D

Modifié par DevilBeast, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .

[S.A.K]

^Makes sense. It might have worked too.

[Sumthing]

BadExamp1e wrote...

Tali and Garrus are miles popular than Miranda or anyone. That's just the way it is.

Wrex and Blasto are popular.

[Han Shot First]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

Jack is a great character, but most gamers are male. And most men probably couldn't get past the fact that she was bald in ME2.  She probably would have been a little more popular as an LI if she had her ME3 hairstyle in ME2.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[Fauxnormal]

Han Shot First wrote...

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

Jack is a great character, but most gamers are male. And most men probably couldn't get past the fact that she was bald in ME2.  She probably wouldn't have been a little more popular as an LI if she had her ME3 hairstyle in ME2.

'Most gamers are male'?

Thanks for perpetuating an untrue steriotype. Next you'll blab out that no attractive females game. :innocent:

[Han Shot First]

Fauxnormal wrote...

'Most gamers are male'?

Thanks for perpetuating an untrue steriotype. Next you'll blab out that no attractive females game. :innocent:

Most gamers are male.

That doesn't mean that women don't play games. Just that as a percentage, men outnumber women. That is a fact and not a stereotype.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[Terraforming2154]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

If she had been available for femShep, I'd gone after her in a heartbeat tbh.

[vonSlash]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

Jack is a great character, but most gamers are male. And most men probably couldn't get past the fact that she was bald in ME2.  She probably wouldn't have been a little more popular as an LI if she had her ME3 hairstyle in ME2.

'Most gamers are male'?

Thanks for perpetuating an untrue steriotype. Next you'll blab out that no attractive females game. :innocent:

Do you have any evidence to support your claim - specifically, your claim that female gamers outnumber male gamers?


Back on topic, I agree that Jack and Miranda got screwed when it came to players who romanced them. Their repeated cameos were fine for a non-romance playthough in that they're similar to many of the non-romanceable ME3 squadmate cameos, but there's just not enough content there for players who romanced them when compared with any other (non-Jacob) romance. I understand how Liara and the Vimire survivor got the 'best' romance content in ME3 (Liara is BW's poster girl and 'canon' romance, and the VS has been an important character and romance option since ME1), and I don't begrudge those characters their prominent positions, nor do I take offense to BioWare's decision to make Garrus and Tali squadmates with developed romances. However, what bothers me is that Bioware chose to relegate Miranda to a cameo when she is a character who could have been important to the Cerberus arc and would have been easy to design as an eighth squadmate (a smart choice not just from a story perspective, but from a combat persepective as well. Anyone who chose Ashley over Kaidan doesn't have a Sentinel squadmate available). I suspect, however, that the decision not to include Miranda had something to do with the differences in how Cerberus was portrayed between ME2 and ME3. In ME3, Cerberus is no longer the overzealous pro-human paramilitary fringe group, but is instead a bunch of indoctrinated madmen working for the Reapers. New players who haven't played ME2 only know Cerberus as Reaper puppets, and so wouldn't understand why this Ex-Cerberus officer is stationed aboard their ship, nor would they understand why she has anything to do with Shepard, as the events of ME2 aren't explained to new players in any detail beyond "Shepard stopped the Collectors".

As for Jack's lack of content, I'm not really sure why BioWare didn't just add in another scene or two for a Jack romance. It wouldn't have been difficult to do, and it's not like Jack has a negligible fanbase, so sidelining Jack was inevitably going to ****** off more than a few people.

[Premier Bromanov]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

If she had been available for femShep, I'd gone after her in a heartbeat tbh.

It goes without saying that any LI that is open to both sexes will have more romancers.  However, Jack states her sexual orientation, and it only includes male Shepard, so I don't consider this a factor in this matter.  Instead, I'm looking for other explanations.  As was said above, her appearance was probably a major factor.  Her attitude, too.  I just have trouble believing these two factors are enough to make her less popular in that survey than Shepard's left hand.

Modifié par Premier Bromanov, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:02 .

[spirosz]

Han Shot First wrote...

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

Jack is a great character, but most gamers are male. And most men probably couldn't get past the fact that she was bald in ME2.  She probably would have been a little more popular as an LI if she had her ME3 hairstyle in ME2.

Seriously?  That's just a shallow mindset.... 

"cause she was bald..." 

[Cantable]

I seem to recall Miranda being hunted by Cerberus operatives for the majority of Mass Effect 3 while trying to find and protect her sister. She's pretty busy and then she is elsewhere fighting, as is Jack. The other LIs are either part of Shepard's squad, dead or irrelevant.

Modifié par Cantable, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:10 .

[Kalas Magnus]

spiros9110 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

According to this survey, which had 17,482 participants, yes they are. If you take that as an accurate sampling (which is debatable, of course, since it catered to a certain type of fan), Tali is the second most popular LI (after Liara) and Garrus is the fourth. Miranda is sixth and Jack was several ranks further down.

Sill surprises me that more participants romanced no one than romanced Jack.

Jack is a great character, but most gamers are male. And most men probably couldn't get past the fact that she was bald in ME2.  She probably would have been a little more popular as an LI if she had her ME3 hairstyle in ME2.

Seriously?  That's just a shallow mindset.... 

"cause she was bald..." 

Well you know, that is the one place men want the chick to have hair.