229 réponses à ce sujet

[Landon7001]

ahhhhhhhhh...........star trek is awesome.........good memories.....great writing.......

[Landon7001]

that was a HELL of an episode as well....

[chuckles471]

wantedman dan wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

What if one of the writers is a huge Star Trek fan?

That would be like a kick to the quads, your peer pretty much saying you shouldn't be trusted with a keyboard.

As it should be.

It should be much less hurtful, however, than when your very own FANS say it.

True that.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Bill Casey wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...
 
Melinda M. Snodgrass was the writer for the classic episode "Measure of Man" which contains Picard's court room speech arguing for Data's independence.

Heck Yes

John Luc Picard... Dropping logic bombs since 1987.

[7he Island Head]

SHE GAVE THEM TEH DREAM IDEA!!!
http://www.melindasn...le/37/441.htmlp

[Eluril]

Haha the last thing this series needs is for a later Star Trek writer to work on it and remove any and all mystery from the sci-fi aspects of the universe

[Mystiq6]

Cant Planet wrote...

Mass Effect uses the difference between organic and synthetic life as a major theme. We get to see EDI becoming more individualized. And Legion flat out asks the core question "Does this unit have a soul?"

Then, at the ending of the game, the option that would normally be the most attractive choice -- you destroy your enemy, and maybe you also get to live -- becomes complicated by the knowledge that you will be wiping out "synthetic life".

So now you have to think about it. Did you really accept the argument about synthetic life being equal in value to organic life? It's easy to say Yes when there are no consequences, but now the consequences are severe.

If it's still Yes for you, you have to choose one of the other ways, each of which has its own consequences. You get to decide. In fact, you have to decide.

Hell, they even soften the blow by heavily implying that synthetic life can be reconstituted. One of the explicit advantages of synthetic life in the story is that it isn't platform-specific, it can move itself around to some degree without being locked into its physical location. So it's even possible that the consciousnesses of the synthetics can be revived and restored to what they were.

If anything, ME3 offers a very mature position on the synthetic life question, because instead of telling you what's right, it presents evidence and leaves it to you to decide. And it isn't as simple a question as some people make it out to be.

If potentially wiping out the Geth and all other AIs is an unacceptable sacrifice for you, then Control and Synthesis are available. Or you can head back to the bench and let the next cycle take care of it.

But I suppose that still isn't acceptable, because it's not an I Won Everything option.

I've said this so many times I'm starting to lose count. What drew me to Mass Effect over Dragon Age was that the decisions you make in Mass Effect were less morally infuriating. Many of the choices you made in Dragon Age felt like they had "forced drama": the choice was such that all options were sometimes morally wrong in at least one way and you had to choose the one least objectionable to you. They wanted to write a role-playing game for adults. I was ok with that since it was in the game from beginning to end and I knew what I was getting into when I picked up Dragon Age 2. The game was much "harder" to play than Dragon Age: Origins or all of Mass Effect (save the ending).

I did not like this aspect of decision-making in Dragon Age 1 or 2. If this is how they chose to make Mass Effect have a poignant ending then I disagree with it. This didn't happen in Mass Effect at all until the very end. There were choices like Rannoch that smelled of Dragon Age where you have to pick between the Geth or Quarians, but then if you were good enough, you could broker peace between them. There was also Virmire, which was set up very well leading into it and didn't feel as much like forced drama as something that just naturally popped out of the story. Was I upset? Hell yeah, I sat there trying to decide which one to let die for several minutes. I also thought it was reminiscent of what's-her-face dying in Final Fantasy 7.

Mass Effect's choices were between "bad ass" and "goody two-shoes." So many people are saying it without nailing it on the head. This isn't so much a mature decision as simply a poor way to exhibit the theme of sacrifice, along with such an important character being introduced way too late in the game. I will argue until I'm blue in the face that pulling a decision like this on the player isn't so much poignant as it is just depressing. I see many games trying to be mature and just doing this and none of them seem to do it well. Want a mature story? Try Heavy Rain. That did it without the decisions feeling like cheap kicks to the groin.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:22 .

[Mystiq6]

7he Island Head wrote...

SHE GAVE THEM TEH DREAM IDEA!!!
http://www.melindasn...cle/37/441.html

I can't tell you how much I was looking forward to more consequences for Shepard emotionally and psychologically. In that aspect, Mass Effect 3 let me down. The dreams (bless them) tried, but Shepard probably should have been a lot more distraught. A little more exposition on this and perhaps the ending sacrifice would have made sense.

I really do love the majority of Mass Effect but BioWare just sometimes seems to miss the grand opportunities they leave open for themselves. More of the mind of Shepard was one of them.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:24 .

[Oni Changas]

Hey, if she can get on board, that'd be cool.

If she can replace Walters, that'd be awesome.

If Karpyshyn can return and frame the lore back into the mysterious and wonderful universe we all loved with Weekes and Donbrow bringing out the powerful emotion, I'd nerdgasm.

[LaughingDragon]

OniTYME wrote...

Hey, if she can get on board, that'd be cool.

If she can replace Walters, that'd be awesome.

If Karpyshyn can return and frame the lore back into the mysterious and wonderful universe we all loved with Weekes and Donbrow bringing out the powerful emotion, I'd nerdgasm.

At this point...anyone but Walters. ANYONE.

[Mr.House]

OniTYME wrote...

Hey, if she can get on board, that'd be cool.

If she can replace Walters, that'd be awesome.

If Karpyshyn can return and frame the lore back into the mysterious and wonderful universe we all loved with Weekes and Donbrow bringing out the powerful emotion, I'd nerdgasm.

You know the dark energy ending was just as bad, if not worst because it still threw away all the choices you made and still tried to make the Reapers look like bad guys with good intentions?
Oh wait it's Drew and he's like the writetr who makes no mistakes and is the best ever.

[Oni Changas]

The dark energy plot fit the context. It was the epilogue choice. Your decisions could potentially matter in regards to DEFEATING the reapers. DE decision was the result of it. And hell, it IS the consequence of the mass effect. That plot goes hand in hand with the series' title.

[Cant Planet]

Mystiq6 wrote...

Cant Planet wrote...

Mass Effect uses the difference between organic and synthetic life as a major theme. We get to see EDI becoming more individualized. And Legion flat out asks the core question "Does this unit have a soul?"

Then, at the ending of the game, the option that would normally be the most attractive choice -- you destroy your enemy, and maybe you also get to live -- becomes complicated by the knowledge that you will be wiping out "synthetic life".

So now you have to think about it. Did you really accept the argument about synthetic life being equal in value to organic life? It's easy to say Yes when there are no consequences, but now the consequences are severe.

If it's still Yes for you, you have to choose one of the other ways, each of which has its own consequences. You get to decide. In fact, you have to decide.

Hell, they even soften the blow by heavily implying that synthetic life can be reconstituted. One of the explicit advantages of synthetic life in the story is that it isn't platform-specific, it can move itself around to some degree without being locked into its physical location. So it's even possible that the consciousnesses of the synthetics can be revived and restored to what they were.

If anything, ME3 offers a very mature position on the synthetic life question, because instead of telling you what's right, it presents evidence and leaves it to you to decide. And it isn't as simple a question as some people make it out to be.

If potentially wiping out the Geth and all other AIs is an unacceptable sacrifice for you, then Control and Synthesis are available. Or you can head back to the bench and let the next cycle take care of it.

But I suppose that still isn't acceptable, because it's not an I Won Everything option.

I've said this so many times I'm starting to lose count. What drew me to Mass Effect over Dragon Age was that the decisions you make in Mass Effect were less morally infuriating. Many of the choices you made in Dragon Age felt like they had "forced drama": the choice was such that all options were sometimes morally wrong in at least one way and you had to choose the one least objectionable to you. They wanted to write a role-playing game for adults. I was ok with that since it was in the game from beginning to end and I knew what I was getting into when I picked up Dragon Age 2. The game was much "harder" to play than Dragon Age: Origins or all of Mass Effect (save the ending).

I did not like this aspect of decision-making in Dragon Age 1 or 2. If this is how they chose to make Mass Effect have a poignant ending then I disagree with it. This didn't happen in Mass Effect at all until the very end. There were choices like Rannoch that smelled of Dragon Age where you have to pick between the Geth or Quarians, but then if you were good enough, you could broker peace between them. There was also Virmire, which was set up very well leading into it and didn't feel as much like forced drama as something that just naturally popped out of the story. Was I upset? Hell yeah, I sat there trying to decide which one to let die for several minutes. I also thought it was reminiscent of what's-her-face dying in Final Fantasy 7.

Mass Effect's choices were between "bad ass" and "goody two-shoes." So many people are saying it without nailing it on the head. This isn't so much a mature decision as simply a poor way to exhibit the theme of sacrifice, along with such an important character being introduced way too late in the game. I will argue until I'm blue in the face that pulling a decision like this on the player isn't so much poignant as it is just depressing. I see many games trying to be mature and just doing this and none of them seem to do it well. Want a mature story? Try Heavy Rain. That did it without the decisions feeling like cheap kicks to the groin.

I suppose I did miss the opportunity for middle choices the whole way through, whichis why I found the ending options refreshing (in theory, if not in their specific application here, which was still pretty sloppy).

Heavy Rain did Decisions well. But it had the only game ending (of games I've personally completed) that was more infuriating than ME3. Talk about plot holes and poorly handled red herrings -- Heavy Rain is a Masters-level course. (The reveal was stunning -- my jaw literally dropped -- but after ten seconds of thought everything totally fell apart. Note to game developers: AVOID VENTS IN YOUR STORIES.)

[Mechler]

OniTYME wrote...

Hey, if she can get on board, that'd be cool.

If she can replace Walters, that'd be awesome.

If Karpyshyn can return and frame the lore back into the mysterious and wonderful universe we all loved with Weekes and Donbrow bringing out the powerful emotion, I'd nerdgasm.

Yeah, Karpyshyn is the man. First ME book after he leaves - Massive ****storm has to be re-written from page one.
First ME game aftrer he leaves - Massive ****storm hsa to be corrected with EC.

Curious, isn't it

[nitefyre410]

Mystiq6 wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

SHE GAVE THEM TEH DREAM IDEA!!!
http://www.melindasn...cle/37/441.html

I can't tell you how much I was looking forward to more consequences for Shepard emotionally and psychologically. In that aspect, Mass Effect 3 let me down. The dreams (bless them) tried, but Shepard probably should have been a lot more distraught. A little more exposition on this and perhaps the ending sacrifice would have made sense.

I really do love the majority of Mass Effect but BioWare just sometimes seems to miss the grand opportunities they leave open for themselves. More of the mind of Shepard was one of them.

 

INB4  " BUT Renegede Shepard.."  


I  totally agree with you know that  Bioware missed a huge oppurtunity to  really show the strain that  Shepard was under and then you the player gets to choose how he or she handles and deals with the added stress the emotionally and psychologically effects. Yet, typical Bioware the glossed right over it and did not tackle the issue  head on.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Now matter how awesome this and it is awesome... Bioware is too arrogant and full of themselves to listen... remember.. "75 perfect scores"

But this is great find AtlasMickey, I am going make sure to keep following this story

You are right about BioWare crowing about "game press" reviews.  Even in the EC DLC podcast, they restated how many good reviews they received for ME3.  But one of the stories of this game was how the "game industry press" really showed itself to be not real "press" but rather a bunch of  sycophantic advertising agencies toadying for game developers.  Traditional media (like Forbes) showed itself to be much more independent.  Of course, they don't require a series of interviews with game developers for their content.   This is why the "gaming press" isn't a reliable source of information or objective opinion.

[Redbelle]

Beliar86 wrote...

After reading that she wanted a generic style ending I was like lol no.

I'm not the biggest fan of the one we got but at least it's not derivative. They just needed to give the catalyst a more logical reasoning and it would be fine.

From what I gathered she wasn't pushing for any type of ending. Just better story telling like they did in ME1.

Remember when we saw a big spaceship.......... then we discovered that a great evil would come and wipe us all out.......... back then we didn't know the spaceships were Reapers. We just had this dread of an impending foe and a creepy spaceship that can do things it shouldn't be able to do. Then we discover the Ship is a Reaper and it speaks to us regarding what it wants, i.e. the end of life.

Eep!

That was great story telling in building up a villan. That generic style you talk about can seem generic if you simple follow the rules of story telling, the way writers set them out to get the principles across. But put story telling elements in the hands of a master story teller who can handle both prose and pacing and the result is the story from ME1. Not the end game catalyst shambles of ME3.

I'm not knocking the need to make 3 choices..... I'm knocking the catalyst who suddenly appears from nowhere to explains why those choices need to be made........ Why not have Anderson instead telling Shep why he needs to destroy? Or TIM as well arguing with Anderson why Control is better? Then put both in a situation where they are powerless and they have to convince Shep to do things there way? And then, (because we need to address Synthesis), why not have a prothean AI/VI....... something Prothean, pop up and say we need to re-establish order by making everything the same through domination so lets dominate everyones genetics and end the war with Reapers that way.......... (I'm really struggling with explaining synth here).

[nitefyre410]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Now matter how awesome this and it is awesome... Bioware is too arrogant and full of themselves to listen... remember.. "75 perfect scores"

But this is great find AtlasMickey, I am going make sure to keep following this story

You are right about BioWare crowing about "game press" reviews.  Even in the EC DLC podcast, they restated how many good reviews they received for ME3.  But one of the stories of this game was how the "game industry press" really showed itself to be not real "press" but rather a bunch of  sycophantic advertising agencies toadying for game developers.  Traditional media (like Forbes) showed itself to be much more independent.  Of course, they don't require a series of interviews with game developers for their content.   This is why the "gaming press" isn't a reliable source of information or objective opinion.

 

So true but see I was suspect of the gaming press for how they panned other games by other companies and poisoned the waters for some games but some how Mass Effect 3  gets 10 perfect scores... That just confirmed it...  the Game Press is full of ****.

[Dean_the_Young]

Greylycantrope wrote...
The Zha'til were working for the Reapers,

The Protheans were fighting synthetics before the Reapers appeared.

the Geth didn't start that conflict and it can still end in peace.

Who starts a conflict, and how it ends, is irrelevant to whether a conflict occurs at all.

Geth also joined in and started a different conflict as well, without coercion: Eden Prime gets forgotten a bit, but the Heretics were Geth and did start a conflict without provocation.

And conflict will always occur whether between two organic species or between synthetic and organic. Just because it occurs though doesn't mean one side gets wiped out completly.

The issue is technological singularity. Organics can fight eachother, but our ability to destroy eachother is limited by the relative technology levels: we're very rarely at cavemen vs. space marine gaps. A synthetic singularity would be a runaway gap, however, that couldn't be bridged by organics. You only need one hostile, or even ultra-apathetic, singularity to walk over organics.

[DazenCobalt17]

Deadpool9 wrote...

jeff359 wrote...

She's right, Bioware should give her a call.

I'm guessing she burned her bridges when she wrote, "EA/Bioware = Condescending Jackasses."

That's a one up in my book. I'll buy her a drink

[BlueStorm83]

---  My additions in BOLD.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
The Zha'til were working for the Reapers,

The Protheans were fighting synthetics before the Reapers appeared.

The Protheans were a militaristic, domination-oriented species.  Life makes synthetics in their own vein of thinking.  The Protheans were faced with a problem of their own origination, a synthetic mirror image.

the Geth didn't start that conflict and it can still end in peace.

Who starts a conflict, and how it ends, is irrelevant to whether a conflict occurs at all.

Conflict itself is not necessarily a bad thing.  It's through adversity that people learn and grow.

Geth also joined in and started a different conflict as well, without coercion: Eden Prime gets forgotten a bit, but the Heretics were Geth and did start a conflict without provocation.

UNTRUE.  The appearance of Nazara (Sovereign) changed the logic of the Heretic Geth, who devoted themselves to him as one would to a god.  Without Sovereign's direct intervention, the Heretic Geth would never have separated from the Geth Consensus, and continued acting as caretakers over Rannoch, and, to draw inference from what Legion had said, hoped for some sort of reconciliation with the Quarrians.

And conflict will always occur whether between two organic species or between synthetic and organic. Just because it occurs though doesn't mean one side gets wiped out completly.

EXACTLY.

The issue is technological singularity. Organics can fight eachother, but our ability to destroy eachother is limited by the relative technology levels: we're very rarely at cavemen vs. space marine gaps. A synthetic singularity would be a runaway gap, however, that couldn't be bridged by organics. You only need one hostile, or even ultra-apathetic, singularity to walk over organics.

Technological singularity is as much a bull**** argument as the Salem Witch Trials.  There are limitations on technology put in place by the laws of physics.  We feel one of those limitations now: electrical resistance causes energy to be lost as heat.  Heat destroys complex electronics.  That's why I have to replace my video cards every 2 years.  They cook themselves.  Another is the absolute size of the electron.  Once we reach the point where the size of the electron and the limitations of the speed of light make faster computing impossible, Electronic computing will hit a plateau that can not be circumvented.  The next step is Quantum Computing, infintesimally smaller than electrons with more variations than the simple + and -, or 0 and 1 of electronic computing.

In a similar way, Quantum computing, for all it's advantages, has an absolute limit.  Put in game-terms, A Quantum Geth would be impossibly smart compared to even the entirety of the Electronic Geth consensus, but he too would reach a limit.  To advance as a technology, sub-quantum particles would need to be used as a basis for technology. 

Even if Synthetic Life functions at quantum levels, intelligently speaking at least, the physical world would seem to be standing still to it.  Problems would have an intellectual solution nearly as soon as they are realized.  A sub-quantum computing synthetic race would master the laws of the physical universe and be able to execute their designs with perfected precision.  Conflict arises not arbitrarily, but when one society has a need or a lack, and another society has an abundance or at least a portion of what the first society needs.  A quantum synthetic lifeform with total understanding of the physical laws would not take long to reach a state where they could manipulate matter and reconstruct it in other forms: if your own makeup is run using quantum particles, how simple would it be to take Electrons, Protons, and Neutrons and fashion whatever atoms you require?

At this point, Synthetic Life would go away.  It would just leave.  There would be no need to destroy Organic Life to achieve a synthetic paradise.  It could receed into the space between galaxies, deconstructing Dark Matter to rebuind into whatever materials it needs.  Organics would be left alone, much the way we pay no mind to the Amoeba.  If it one day spawns more Quantum-Synthetics, good.  If not, why waste our time to destroy it?

[Mazebook]

Melinda M. Snodgrass seems to be a arrogant ******...judging publicly a peers work so harshly shows a failure in character

Modifié par maaaze, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Baronesa]

maaaze wrote...

Melinda M. Snodgrass seems to be a arrogant ******...judging publicly a pears work so harshly shows a failure in character

:blink:

pot kettle

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]BlueStorm83 wrote...

---  My additions in BOLD.
[/quote]Learn to quote.

[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Greylycantrope wrote...
The Zha'til were working for the Reapers, [/quote]The Protheans were fighting synthetics before the Reapers appeared.

The Protheans were a militaristic, domination-oriented species.  Life makes synthetics in their own vein of thinking.  The Protheans were faced with a problem of their own origination, a synthetic mirror image.[/quote]
That's not claimed by Javik in any way. Javik never claims that they were fightiong their own creations. If anything, the implication of Javik's history of the Protheans is that they militarized in response to the Synthetics.



[quote]

Conflict itself is not necessarily a bad thing.  It's through adversity that people learn and grow.
[/quote]We aren't talking about interpersonal conflict. We're talking about wars with genocides.


[quote]
UNTRUE.  The appearance of Nazara (Sovereign) changed the logic of the Heretic Geth, who devoted themselves to him as one would to a god.  Without Sovereign's direct intervention, the Heretic Geth would never have separated from the Geth Consensus, and continued acting as caretakers over Rannoch, and, to draw inference from what Legion had said, hoped for some sort of reconciliation with the Quarrians.[/quote]That doesn't challenge a thing I said. The Heretics were not compelled to follow the Reapers, they chose to. The Geth responded to a stimulus: stimuli doesn't have to be Reaper in origin. The Geth were never as united as Legion wanted to believe, they just hadn't had a stimuli because they remained isolated.


[quote]
[b]Technological singularity is as much a bull**** argument as the Salem Witch Trials.  There are limitations on technology put in place by the laws of physics.  We feel one of those limitations now: electrical resistance causes energy to be lost as heat.  Heat destroys complex electronics.  That's why I have to replace my video cards every 2 years.  They cook themselves.  Another is the absolute size of the electron.  Once we reach the point where the size of the electron and the limitations of the speed of light make faster computing impossible, Electronic computing will hit a plateau that can not be circumvented.  The next step is Quantum Computing, infintesimally smaller than electrons with more variations than the simple + and -, or 0 and 1 of electronic computing.[/quote]See, the lore of Mass Effect disagrees with you here. Besides that the Mass Effect is, itself, a fundmanetal challenge to the laws of physics, the rest of ME's technology also defies similar laws.

If you don't like the lore you don't like the lore, but that doesn't actually invalidate a technological singularity in the setting.