229 réponses à ce sujet

[Master_Smurf]

@3DandBeyond on your exposition (think that is the right word) of the choices - isnt that how we (as a society) see it though. Control - Religion or Government being the overseer. Synthesis - intermingling of races an/or cultures to gain understanding and acceptance. Destroy (not sure this fits in as nicely but maybe it does) - remove the perceived or actual threat to continue your "harmonious" existence.

That is basically the philosophies of all the civilizations other than the "do you, its all good" age.

[DGMockingJay]

Master Xanthan wrote...

kyban wrote...

They need to pay Drew Karpyshyn like 8 million big ones to come back and save this bad boy

This.

I am willing to contribute if someone starts a kickstarter on that!!

[xsdob]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Well now I feel like ferengi **** because I liked the endings and the EC.

Think ill go wallow now that I've been told I like insults and **** by a writter, that you STTNG writter for making me feel so low.

goodbye.

Waaah! Waaaah! Cry some more.

God-damned emo drama queen moments.

wat

Sometimes you have to go back and re-read your post to realize how stupid you sound.

And when that happens humor is always the best remedy for that.

[thehomeworld]

Yes any Star Trek Next Gen writers should help BW to keep their space stories consistent. In ME they clearly had strong influences and paid tons of homage to ST, DS9, BSG, and others in 2 they went for trendy and never went back. I was so happy to play ME because it was in the vein of the classic space operas I don't care for the trendy ditch ME2 ran into and ME3 struggled to get out of. I hope she posts her FF on FF.net and promotes it.

[satunnainen]

thehomeworld wrote...

Yes any Star Trek Next Gen writers should help BW to keep their space stories consistent. In ME they clearly had strong influences and paid tons of homage to ST, DS9, BSG, and others in 2 they went for trendy and never went back. I was so happy to play ME because it was in the vein of the classic space operas I don't care for the trendy ditch ME2 ran into and ME3 struggled to get out of. I hope she posts her FF on FF.net and promotes it.

Why would people want to use ST-TNG as a good example anyway. That show was famous for that big reset-button at the end of every episode, so the next episode could start from the same setup as the previous one and nothing much mattered what happened in one single episode. I guess the writers had some kind of "clean up your mess before you end the episode"  order when they were writing. (yes, I know, occasionally things changed, sometimes permanently).

Then came Babylon 5 and long storylines, and ST moved to a space station too, but that has nothing to do with anything

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I never enjoyed Star Trek, so no thank you.

[corporal doody]

satunnainen wrote...

thehomeworld wrote...

Yes any Star Trek Next Gen writers should help BW to keep their space stories consistent. In ME they clearly had strong influences and paid tons of homage to ST, DS9, BSG, and others in 2 they went for trendy and never went back. I was so happy to play ME because it was in the vein of the classic space operas I don't care for the trendy ditch ME2 ran into and ME3 struggled to get out of. I hope she posts her FF on FF.net and promotes it.

Why would people want to use ST-TNG as a good example anyway. That show was famous for that big reset-button at the end of every episode, so the next episode could start from the same setup as the previous one and nothing much mattered what happened in one single episode. I guess the writers had some kind of "clean up your mess before you end the episode"  order when they were writing. (yes, I know, occasionally things changed, sometimes permanently).

Then came Babylon 5 and long storylines, and ST moved to a space station too, but that has nothing to do with anything

i have to agree with this. STTNG was episodic....so umm yeah. Might be better to get a writer from the Young and the Restless....so they can write a "Mass Effect Bible" for continuity purposes.


I GOTTA SAY THOUGH....."All good things..." should have been the first STTNG movie instead of "Generations"

[IntoTheDarkness]

Most likely she will be ignored by Bioware, but why don't you have a cup of tea with her and listen to what she has to say... you know, it could be useful with your 100 plotholes and incoherence, lorebreaking and etc you've done in ME.3

[revo76]

I think she just made fun of endings. If was fun thought, but she's not the first, Bethesda and CDP writers also made jokes about endings.

[syllogi]

Measure of a Man was a great early episode of TNG, I believe before Ronald D. Moore came on board, so it does stand out. I don't know what Ms. Snodgrass would actually be able to do for Bioware, though...the fanfic sounds interesting, but she should be aware of how critical fans can be (because really, seasons one and two of ST:TNG were mostly bad and cheesy, according to even the most rabid fans), and have some understanding of how a collaborative writing process works.

No matter how I feel about ME3, I know the writers and producers didn't get together in a room and decide to make a bad game. They wanted to make a good game, and if things got neglected or passed over on the way to that, hopefully they've learned from the experience and will work on those points for the next game they make.

My biggest problem with ME3 is claiming it's still a roleplaying game at all. No amount of writers coming in to "fix" the ending will help that.

[mad825]

syllogi wrote...

Measure of a Man was a great early episode of TNG, I believe before Ronald D. Moore came on board, so it does stand out. I don't know what Ms. Snodgrass would actually be able to do for Bioware, though...the fanfic sounds interesting, but she should be aware of how critical fans can be (because really, seasons one and two of ST:TNG were mostly bad and cheesy, according to even the most rabid fans), and have some understanding of how a collaborative writing process works.

According to IMDB, she wrote a few of my favourite episodes; The High Ground, Up the Long Ladder and Pen Pals (this episode for me got kinda bad towards the end).

Honestly, given the history of U.S. TV shows, being 'mostly bad and cheesy' is usually the consequences of the creative writing. Just look at manimal and Knight rider(good god just don't talk about the soaps).

I still think she should be hired. It's better than hiring Freddie Prinze Jr for a generic character and even jessica chobot.

[element eater]

well bioware did a terrible job this is to be expectected and found amusing 

personally iagree they should have got in some better writers if that was the best that bioware could do after 3 games

Modifié par element eater, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:09 .

[3DandBeyond]

Master_Smurf wrote...

@3DandBeyond on your exposition (think that is the right word) of the choices - isnt that how we (as a society) see it though. Control - Religion or Government being the overseer. Synthesis - intermingling of races an/or cultures to gain understanding and acceptance. Destroy (not sure this fits in as nicely but maybe it does) - remove the perceived or actual threat to continue your "harmonious" existence.

That is basically the philosophies of all the civilizations other than the "do you, its all good" age.

I think that's how some see it and as presented by the devs it over-simplifies human (organic life's) need and desires.  I see religion best used as a guide, but allow for others to see it in their own way based on their own need.  I know that organized religion can be divisive but it can be inclusive.  So too can anything based upon the human personality inserted into it.  Faith is more tricky but if religion based it can be all powerful with an omnipotent God in charge, but it can also be more about hope.  Many do not believe in any overseer or one that is like a benevolent father letting the children find their way, while others see the creator as the one in charge of everything-that if one prays enough the best will happen.  But that outcome is only the best as designed by God.  Universal acceptance of God or a being in charge does not exist.

Government, say here in the US becomes a zero sum game.  No one determines to really fix it, government that is supposed to be a reflection of the desires of the populace.  The fix for many is to abolish or abandon it, for others it is to increase its role, and for others it's just to ignore it.  So, the idea of needing and overseer is not universal.

Self-determination, reliance, and so on are only denied when total control is assumed or given to an outside authority.

Synthesis means we must give up any notion of being able to work out differences.  We must become alike to get along.  It again denies  what exists within us-we can find ways at the very least to look past differences and work together, and at best to embrace those differences as beautiful.  You look upon a field of flowers and if all that meets your eye is the yellow of Black Eyed Susans, you turn toward another field and see again a sea of yellow.  Uniqueness is abandoned and beauty fades.  It's boring.  But, a splash of purple, red, or blue and beauty is regained.  You don't have to become like someone else to understand them and learning about their differences is really beautiful.  It's a powerful thing and it can challenge you.  Furthermore, synthesis strips people of that ability to achieve any further "growth".  It may lead to immortality and then what?  If no one dies the galaxy could become a crowded place full of a lot of boring people.  Ever had a conversation with someone that completely agrees with you?  It's not as much fun as it sounds.  And it's simplistic to think that the only real valid conflict that threatens life is that between organics and synthetics.  My brother and his wife would beg to differ.

Destroy merely removes the current threat, but what's left (ignoring the horrible consequence) is the need for people to forge their own destinies.  It doesn't remove the idea of any authority, government or religion, nor does it deny the need for understanding and acceptance or those with different realities.  In fact, it requires that all people face things they'd rather ignore-things that control and synthesis remove.  Destroy means people must as adults admit any problems that could crop up and not just ignore any issues.  They looked away when the quarians and TIM and the Batarians did things, because it was easier to do so.  The council has consistently done this on everything.  All the galaxy has failed to work to further the best interests of all and so in picking control or synthesis it's just saying they won't ever do this.  Pick destroy and they must.  For good or bad, they must do better and must take responsibility and confront others when they make mistakes. 

The sad fact is Bioware deemed this the selfish option.  It's like they are saying FU for deciding to want to handle problems in an adult real way.  So, to punish you they kill EDI and the geth-the exact examples of why destroy and self-determination and reliance is a better choice.  Lovely thing to do.

[Vox Draco]

Measure of a man is great and outstanding sci fi. Because it is not actually sci fi at all. Star trek was always at its best when the sci fi and techno babble took a step back and the social and cultural issues of humanity that even plague us today become a theme. The whole episode took place in a courtroom on some spacestation. No phasers, no klingons, no warp-anomalies. Just the question "Is Data supposed to be alive and self-determined?" And this question was more thrilling than anything else...

And this is in no way outdated or old-school, it is as vital and relevant as ever.

And I still love TNG for this. I dare to say that my moral standpoints today are quite heavily influenced by this series. Picard especially was always my favorite captain and character. He would have wiped the floor with the starchild, first calmly explaining to it the false logic it uses, then winning the war by yelling!

"Thre are no red, green or blue lights!" (*sigh* from another awesome episode, about torture and abuse...)

considering this, yes, a talented and experienced sci-fi story-writer would have helped the ME-franchise immensly, and maybe it would have been avoided this rather unfitting way of solving the story...

[Eluril]

revo76 wrote...

I think she just made fun of endings. If was fun thought, but she's not the first, Bethesda and CDP writers also made jokes about endings.

Didn't read this thread but Bethesda game developers should probably just keep quiet about game storytelling as their games have tended to fail completely at engrossing me ...at all. Poor characters, poor dialogue, "Why should I care?" was my thought playing Fallout 3 and the same through what I've seen of Skyrim.

[3DandBeyond]

Eluril wrote...

revo76 wrote...

I think she just made fun of endings. If was fun thought, but she's not the first, Bethesda and CDP writers also made jokes about endings.

Didn't read this thread but Bethesda game developers should probably just keep quiet about game storytelling as their games have tended to fail completely at engrossing me ...at all. Poor characters, poor dialogue, "Why should I care?" was my thought playing Fallout 3 and the same through what I've seen of Skyrim.

The only problem is the Bethesda games never tried to be something they weren't and Bethesda did learn from their fans and addressed the big F3 ending problem in some way.

ME is so much about the characters and very specifically about Shepard.  But in the end they tried to take a very simple story of people (a core group and the larger galaxy) fighting to remain wholly themselves in order to save their homes and they morphed it into something that ended up not being about that at all.  Javik said it so many times-Shepard wanted to do things while keeping honor intact (he at first thought this impossible) and then he says that the strength of this cycle was in learning to work together.  But that has nothing to do with what happens at the end.  The choices Shepard is given totally deny that that matters at all.  It would have been far easier to make a choice if it were the Protheans or any autocratic regime doing so.  Those that strive for better things can't find a decent choice and are denied a decent ending.  This is a freaking game and at least Bethesda did remember that with their games.  I don't mean utopia, but one path to real success on Shepard's terms.

[Eluril]

So I see you're one of the "Conventional victory" people. Your opinion is irrelevant to me. Bioware from the beginning described ME as "Jack Bauer in Space". To me it was consistent throughout the games including the ending. You are given power over the galaxy and its future but each choice involves sacrificing yourself or others or both to achieve it. The world is not perfect and neither is the ME universe. You may want Ewoks dancing and a medal ceremony, but I don't.

[Psychlonus]

Actually, better yet they need J.K. Rowling. I watched a marathon of all that Harry Potter b.s. and was amazed at how everything that happened mattered and tied in to something.

[Herr Igor]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I never enjoyed Star Trek, so no thank you.

Soooooooo... What exactly are doing playing Mass Effect? Ahh, the multiplayer right?

[3DandBeyond]

Eluril wrote...

So I see you're one of the "Conventional victory" people. Your opinion is irrelevant to me. Bioware from the beginning described ME as "Jack Bauer in Space". To me it was consistent throughout the games including the ending. You are given power over the galaxy and its future but each choice involves sacrificing yourself or others or both to achieve it. The world is not perfect and neither is the ME universe. You may want Ewoks dancing and a medal ceremony, but I don't.

You know nothing about me if you are referencing me since I've never said that a "conventional victory" or just one ending with bunnies and rainbows is all that should exist.  In fact, I have said that an ending that encompassed a broad range of possibilities was needed.  I could conceive of an ending where Shepard even lived but clearly saw that all was lost to the reapers (not suicidal FU refuse).  I could also conceive of an ending where the galaxy was saved but in a mess where Shepard died.

I felt the ending needed a conventionally understood theme that fit the rest of the story.  What the ending is now is a slam at anyone that thinks that people can find ways to resolve conflict short of the intervention of a physically present omnipotent being or beings, the homogenization of disparate groups in order to remove conflict (if we are all basically one then we agree, so no conflict) or the destruction of the present foe as well as the collateral destruction of those beings (EDI and the geth) that best exemplified the ability of people to learn to get along with synthetics and the ability of synthetics to reciprocate.

I also felt that destroy was the only choice that even allowed for people to fully find a way to self-determine and to achieve self-reliance.  If once and for all all reaper tech is destroyed and people must find ways to create and fix things themselves, then true learning and evolution will begin.  But the cost is so ridiculous and inserted as a way to portray this Shepard (who followed orders and accomplished the actual goal of the mission) as selfish and it demeans Shepard by leaving that torso in a pile of rubble.

The problems that remain are the idea of anything every being fated to be-no, we won't always do the same as some have done before.  And chaos in and of itself isn't a terrible thing-so that someone would believe it is ridiculous.  Order itself can be a very restrictive thing that can be stifling.

Refuse is a great speech meant to jab at players that wanted to shoot the kid or refuse to make a choice, the awesome choices the devs thought sounded sooooo coool.

The biggest problem is there's only one ending that allows Shepard to remain Shepard-refuse, but I've said it's stupid.  Neither of the other choices do this by design.  The EC also features dialogue that doesn't fully answer questions that needed to be answered and are more patronizing than anything else. 

Yes, one possible fairly happy ending where we could say goodbye to a very alive Shepard face to face and where we could say, "we did it!" was needed for many if not most, but as well clear failures were fine, not failures to use your brain but failures to save the galaxy.  The choices are idiotic.  Control is still not one that a paragon could choose-there's also extra dialogue about it from Hackett before Cronos-tell him you aren't ready to go and then go back and talk to him.  And it is an ominous choice that sounds like the future might not be that good with a Shreaper in charge.  It isn't Shepard remember that.  And synthesis is not anyone's right to force on others without permission.

No, not a conventional victory, but there were unconventional ways to fight that might have had a chance and different ways to present real choices that could lead to very good or very bad.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:59 .

[SpamBot2000]

"Jack Bauer in space?" Ah yes, that was the golden era of torture porn. Remember that 24 finale where Santa popped out of thin air, announced that he controlled the terrorists and Jack had to choose either to kill them but his blonde daughter would be smothered in the flag or merge everything in the universe with pickled herring? Epic!

[Eluril]

You're hilarious!!!

[IllusiveManJr]

Eh, not a fan of any Star Trek TV shows or any of the films, with the exception of J.J. Abrams film. I understand why people love Star Trek though. It's obviously created a rich and enjoyable universe for science fiction fans to enjoy.

[Memnon]

Eluril wrote...

So I see you're one of the "Conventional victory" people. Your opinion is irrelevant to me. Bioware from the beginning described ME as "Jack Bauer in Space". To me it was consistent throughout the games including the ending. You are given power over the galaxy and its future but each choice involves sacrificing yourself or others or both to achieve it. The world is not perfect and neither is the ME universe. You may want Ewoks dancing and a medal ceremony, but I don't.

I don't remember Jack Bauer having dominion over the entire human race via Skynet in the 24 series finale ... maybe my memory is just fuzzy ...

[3DandBeyond]

Stornskar wrote...

Eluril wrote...

So I see you're one of the "Conventional victory" people. Your opinion is irrelevant to me. Bioware from the beginning described ME as "Jack Bauer in Space". To me it was consistent throughout the games including the ending. You are given power over the galaxy and its future but each choice involves sacrificing yourself or others or both to achieve it. The world is not perfect and neither is the ME universe. You may want Ewoks dancing and a medal ceremony, but I don't.

I don't remember Jack Bauer having dominion over the entire human race via Skynet in the 24 series finale ... maybe my memory is just fuzzy ...

Yes, therefore the direct comparison.  24 was exactly like ME and I can totally see why ME3 ended the way it did. 

I also think it's ridiculous to suggest Shepard was being given power over the galaxy.  If anything the increasing involvement of a hierarchy of command (Hackett being directly involved) indicates broader cooperation and not control of the galaxy.  Again, anyone that thinks this or control as a choice makes sense needs to go back and select the cronos mission from the galaxy map.  When Hackett asks Shepard if s/he's ready to go tell him you aren't.  Sam will tell you you can go talk to Hackett and you can ask him about Cerberus (he orders you to kill TIM) and other things, like why he chose you (Shepard).  It's not because Shepard is telling people what to do, it's because Shepard creates the example that others will follow-and they will follow Shepard to hell and back or just will stay in hell if needed.  Hackett also tells Shepard the reapers need to be gone-it's kind of an order.  So, since the other choices are ridiculous, destroy becomes even more viable, but horrific.  And it's still based on believing the choices are real.