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Mass Effect 1's writing wasn't THAT great...


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#251
Mathias

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

@Everyone who thinks DA2 had better characters than ME1.

Nope.


Ok.

What is your argument against that stance?



If i were to explain how wrong that is i would have to go into a long winded and fully detailed explanation as to why that is. I can't just speak for all characters overall, i'd have to talk about each individual one to make my point clear and concrete. I currently do not have the patience or time for that.


Then, you have no argument. So why should I believe you? 

Hell, do one as an example. I have time and patience. 


I'm not having some kind of formal debate here, so i'm not obligated to give you a full explanation. Either deal with what i've given you or move on.




Explain to me why Aveline is a bad character then?

Deal with my questioning or move on. either way, you look foolish because you have no ****ing answer to give. That is clear as day.


Don't feed the trolls. It just makes them associate humans with attention.


But I like putting trolls in their place.


Yes classify me as troll, that's about all you can do at this point.

#252
mauro2222

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txgoldrush wrote...

Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


You know, it this is what you think, it invalidates your stance on ME1 characters not having development.

You can change Garrus views.
You can harden Kaidan.
Helping Wrex with his armor brings new dialogue about trust and allows you to convince him about the cure.

Same with DA:O.

Modifié par mauro2222, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:55 .


#253
LinksOcarina

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txgoldrush wrote...

[*]
[*]No, DAO's characters once again, lack character development. Its all explanation, but no show. And they are all a bunch of, once again, talking codex entries. Nevermind that DA2's cast is far more multidimensional and multifacted than DAO's and that the superior friendship/rivalry system of DA2 allows them more room to develop. Nevermind the fact that DA2's cast grow with eachother, unlike DAO static, non developing relationships. Isabela and Aveline, look how they become friends despite the fact they are complete foils. Nevermind also that DA2's cast factor strongly in the plot, unlike DAO, who only Alistair and Loghain matter......and nevermind the much stronger character missions of DA2, in which DAO only had three chats and a small quest........hell, DA2'c cast had three character missions each, more than ME2's cast did.


I'm going to have to agree witht he troll on this one, the Dragon Age: Origin cast was pretty multi-dimensonal. Zevran for example is more than just a sex fiend, but a guy who has no idea how to love people and the one time he did, he got burned from it. His romance subplot is amazingly well written and planned out.

Morrigan too is a damn good example of being a character that is logical and does what is right, vs what she wants to do. That is character dilemna right there, and it makes her extremely dynamic. 

So no, the Origins cast is pretty solid, I agree Dragon Age II has a better cast, but I would not say Origin was one dimensonal.

#254
Mathias

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mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


You know, it this is what you think, it invalidates your stance on ME1 characters not having development.

You can change Garrus views.
You can harden Kaidan.
Helping Wrex with his armor brings new dialogue about trust and allows you to convince him about the cure.


Not to mention having Ashley overcome her caution towards other races.

#255
vonSlash

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shurikenmanta wrote...

Yep.

I don't know why everybody holds ME1 in such high regard as 'so much better then 2 and 3'.


Thermal clips. Ultimately, it all comes back to thermal clips.

#256
LinksOcarina

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

@Everyone who thinks DA2 had better characters than ME1.

Nope.


Ok.

What is your argument against that stance?



If i were to explain how wrong that is i would have to go into a long winded and fully detailed explanation as to why that is. I can't just speak for all characters overall, i'd have to talk about each individual one to make my point clear and concrete. I currently do not have the patience or time for that.


Then, you have no argument. So why should I believe you? 

Hell, do one as an example. I have time and patience. 


I'm not having some kind of formal debate here, so i'm not obligated to give you a full explanation. Either deal with what i've given you or move on.




Explain to me why Aveline is a bad character then?

Deal with my questioning or move on. either way, you look foolish because you have no ****ing answer to give. That is clear as day.


Don't feed the trolls. It just makes them associate humans with attention.


But I like putting trolls in their place.


Yes classify me as troll, that's about all you can do at this point.


You gave me a lot to work with to do so.

So Aveline again, she was pretty good as a non-stereotypical woman in a game. She was strong and capable, in her own words, showed great grace and depth as a character because of her actions, convictions and friendship with those around her, and frankly, she had some of the best side-missions in the game, especially in Act II...

A lot better than Tali in Mass Effect 1, where she was basically non-dimensonal and along for the ride, or two where she tried to take on responsabilities but failed. Or even 3, where she peaked before the game began, she really served no purpose as a squadmate in Mass Effect 3 after the Rannoch missions. She also served did little as a character because a defining moment for her, becoming an Admiral, happened off-screen, especially after the Trial we witnessed in 2. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .


#257
txgoldrush

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mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

How does Ashley's "change" go against her character? Wow, she changed hairstyles.....like many women do.

Wrong, Wrex talks about it once, HOWEVER, he wants to do it diplomatically by asking the Council for a world. And once again, if Eve dies, Wrex stays peaceful. You are simply not paying attention. Eve speaks of th eglory of the ancients as well, doesn't mean being warlike.

Did you actually miss the part where Xen developed a weapon to stun the geth? Or the fact that Han thinks he can win because the geth deactivated?  Gerrel i swarlike because he thinks he can win. There is NO change from his character in ME2, as he was the most warlike on the Board.

Read the Codex, Udina takes part in a coup so he can take control of the council to force them to attack the Reapers on Earth because the Council is hesitant to send help. He is the same pro-human interest character he was throught the series.

Pay attention.


High heels, skirt... 3 tons of make up. Listen to her dialogue about armor, dates, and guess what... she talking about herself.

Once? ha yeah... he says it, he wants to act on it, and if Eve is dead you don't get any "rebuild" pic, that happened to me, you just get a bunch of krogans having babies. And is very clear of what glory Wrex is talking about.

Hmmm... yeah I forgot about that part, still doesn't change the fact that Gerrel is a cartoon, and tries to kill her friend daughter.

You're explaining me why Udina joined Cerberus, that's not the point nor does explain the idiotic plot of the coup.





Doesn't mean she is sexualized....she also talks about dealing with loss.  Every party member has crass lines...does that make them sexualized? No.

Wrong, you DO get a rebuild pic, I did the same thing...Eve dead, Wrex alive. A special scene is added to the synthesis version. And when does Wrex say he is going to recapture the ancients through war? He never does. He is just trying to rebuild his peoples future. Nevermind he takes into the account his race's high birth rate, so its a necessity.

If Gerrel was a cartoon, than he was in ME2 as well...accept it.

And how is the coup plot idiotic? Nevermind the fact that Cerebrus is trying to keep Shep from uniting the galaxy, such as trying to kill Eve, or detonating the bomb on Tuchanka. Taking the Citadel out of the game would hinder Shep's efforts greatly in trying to unite the galaxy.

#258
gmboy902

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Dusen wrote...
 The crew only listens because A) they're under orders, B) the protheans don't exist anymore for some reason, why is that?, C) Shepard, a well respected hero in his own right before the game, has had an experience with an alien obelisk that gives him visions of the Reaper's reaping of the Protheans D) Liara, through her Asari abilities sees that same vision through Shepard and D) Saren, a well respected SPECTRE, has mysteriously turned evil, while gathering the control of the Geth, and somehow collecting a massive space ship that just so happens to fit the bill of a supposed Reaper


A) There's one thing in saying "Okay Shepard, we'll go hunt your theory" and Liara saying she's in physical shock from discovering the answer to her studies for the last 50 years. After hearing a half-crazed story from a military man who she met ten minutes prior. About death robots.

B) Okay...? Just because Shepard provides a theory doesn't mean it is the only theory. If I said that the colonists on Roanoke Island were devoured by jaguars because I saw drawings of cats on one of the walls, would that hold up? (Granted, that island isn't much of a mystery anymore. They all went and had native babies.)

C) He doesn't see some massive tell-all vision. He sees tiny, split-second fragments of pictures of machinery. The images aren't even intended for his mind, but a Prothean's.

D) I'm not sure if it happens in other cases, but if you pick Liara up first then she just takes his word on the galaxy's greatest mystery.

E?) First of all, nobody knows what Reapers look like. For all we know, he could just have some proto-type Geth capital ship. They haven't been seen in years, after all. Secondly, he hates humans. What's to say he hasn't just snapped and tagged along with the Geth promising them to return their so-called gods in return for killing humanity. Not only could he be delusional, he honestly would seem so were it not for BioWare blatantly telling us the Reapers are real.

ME3's two best story arcs, Rannoch and Tuchanka, were both packed full of emotion and plot twists. They had difficult choices and great writing. The Citadel invasion was a bit forced, but not all-together awful. You had great bits like EDI and Joker, Liara and her capsule, and that last chat with Anderson. The ending wasn't fantastic even after the EC, but I think the story - though perhaps not "better" than ME1, was more stable.

What I really miss about Mass Effect 1 is two things; the emphasis on discovery and exploration (yes, including the fridge-on-wheels planet exploration), and the omnipotent, unknowable Reapers.

#259
Dusen

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gmboy902 wrote...

Mass Effect pulled all of the cliche sci-fi tricks, but it did them well. The problem was that things just felt forced. Shepard suddenly believes in the Reapers because he has to be the one to stop them. Liara believes him because she has to help. BioWare ignored bits and pieces of their own lore to advance the plot, and someone who takes an in-depth look at the codex and planet descriptions will notice that.

It was a great game. Were it not for the pretty flawed combat system (especially for low-armor classes like infiltrators), it would perhaps be better than ME3, but I'm not quite sure now. I'll have to play through all three to tell.


I honestly don't have that hard of a time accepting that Shepard became very interested in the Reapers along with Liara shortly thereafter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did recieve a Prothean vision about their extinction at the hands of the Reapers, and Liara witnessed it after bonding or whatever with Shepard right after that mission.

I personally didn't notice too many ignored points of lore but it has been a while since I've played the game.

As for the second bolded part I do have to agree to an extent, although for the time is was relatively innovative to me as it was the first RPG with real-time combat that I had ever played. I was happy with it until ME2 came along and showed me what good combat in an RPG could be like, although I would have rather they kept the overheating and not added in thermal clips as a poor analog to ammunition magazines, but oh well.

#260
Mathias

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Because I didn't want to give you my full explanation, you call me a troll which is an insult to me, and now you expect me to answer your question?

Doesn't work like that.

But i'll throw a bone and tell you I like Aveline. But I already met a non-stereotypical woman that was strong and capable on her own. Several of them in fact came from the Mass Effect franchise and were done better. Ashley comes to mind. And playing dating service with Aveline wasn't my idea of a great mission.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:02 .


#261
txgoldrush

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mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


You know, it this is what you think, it invalidates your stance on ME1 characters not having development.

You can change Garrus views.
You can harden Kaidan.
Helping Wrex with his armor brings new dialogue about trust and allows you to convince him about the cure.

Same with DA:O.


I said Wrex is the only ME1 character that has real development.

Garrus views doesn't matter, he becomes Archangel. He follows the Renegade path.

Yet, through all this, they still lack development outside Wrex.

Javik's case is different, not only does he have conversation development, but plot development as well.

#262
N-Seven

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txgoldrush wrote...

gmboy902 wrote...

Kerasth wrote...

While I agree that the writing was pretty good at best, it was still better than ME3's. ME2 has the best writing IMO.


ME2's biggest flaw was really the uninteresting story. We just finished a game leaving us with an impending robot invasion, and now we're suddenly working with terrorists to stop colonists from being abducted? It wasn't that motivating.

But it did have great writing. Mass Effect 2's characters were top notch. You had Thane, who was more than just the typical "boom, headshot" assassin character. You had Morinth, who valued her code above her own family. Garrus became an amazing character. Even Joker turned from the pilot with a couple of one-liners to a fantastic bit of comic relief.

ME1 painted the characters poorly. There was not enough good to focus on, so you picked out their flaws. ME3 just didn't characterize enough (except EDI, who was exceptionally well done).


Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


I liked the characterization in ME 3.  A lot of the scenes were really touching and believable, something I didn't get in ME1.  The romance in ME1 for example, I didn't  find it terribly convincing.   'What I say 6 nice things to this girl and into the sack we go?'   Advancing the relationships felt mechanical and gamey, and none of the dialogue or voice acting really got me into really caring.

In ME3, if you choose to break up with Miranda, that scene surprised me...it made me feel genuinely BAD.   While the tender scenes with Liara, I could almost think 'wow she's sweet as hell I think I actually care about this character'.   I didn't get either of those vibes in 1 or 2...the romancing was just 'gameplay' to me, and not something I did because I genuinely cared for the characters.

#263
Hurricane582

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There's fairly simple reason most look past ME1's issues and that's because it is the first in the series, so people are more inclined to expect to have their questions answered in the following stories.

While ME1 certainly stretched it with Shepard going after the reapers only after hearing about them from Tali's data, the pieces fell in line as the story went along. With the focus being on mind control and creating armies. By the end of 1 (and I agree it had terrible gameplay), you know there's a growing threat there (though that end scene was so cheesy I was looking for Michael Bay in the credits)

ME2's biggest issue, for me, was the council flat out rejecting the existence of the Reapers after what they saw in ME1. However, it forced you to work with a group you didn't like because of the belief that "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend."

As for the dealing with "daddy issues" before launching the suicide mission, that's just an extension of the military belief that "a distracted soldier is a dead soldier." Any distraction you can mitigate before battle is a must. Not to mention that people usually look to get their affairs in order if they believe death is imminent. So it's forgivable.

The reason ME3's backlash became so loud is because that was supposed to be "the end." So you expect your questions to all be answered and wrapped up. I didn't like Ashley going from being a battle-hardened veteran to a sex symbol (I mean really, heels for combat?) but she's still an engaging character if she was your long-term L.I.

Udina's betrayal was a reach, but in a way I liked the effort they took to try and change it up. Plus, in talking to him he looked desperate to help humanity and believed the counsel wouldn't help. Desperation makes for strange bedfellows.

Gerrel never changed to me, he was a warhawk who only viewed things through the lenses of a warrior.

The star child was the only thing I had a gripe with, especially after essentially spiking the indoctrination theory, because I felt he was always looking to trick you. Even in the EC he admits to forcing his creators to become the reapers. Plus, if you choose refuse his sympathetic voice disappears and he becomes hostile (though why he wouldn't do that when you're choosing to destroy them baffled me). Honestly, if I had any problem with the ECs is that there essentially is no wrong choice.

Overall, I loved the games from start to finish. While ME2 gave me the most satisfying experience overall, I'm still waiting to see what story DLC comes out for ME3 before making a final judgement.

Sorry for the length, but just my impressions of the thread overall.

#264
mauro2222

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txgoldrush wrote...

Doesn't mean she is sexualized....she also talks about dealing with loss.  Every party member has crass lines...does that make them sexualized? No.

Wrong, you DO get a rebuild pic, I did the same thing...Eve dead, Wrex alive. A special scene is added to the synthesis version. And when does Wrex say he is going to recapture the ancients through war? He never does. He is just trying to rebuild his peoples future. Nevermind he takes into the account his race's high birth rate, so its a necessity.

If Gerrel was a cartoon, than he was in ME2 as well...accept it.

And how is the coup plot idiotic? Nevermind the fact that Cerebrus is trying to keep Shep from uniting the galaxy, such as trying to kill Eve, or detonating the bomb on Tuchanka. Taking the Citadel out of the game would hinder Shep's efforts greatly in trying to unite the galaxy.


Now your messing with me... the damn artbook has an entire sentence on the sexualization part. Bioware needed a new Miranda, they went for Ash who made it pretty clear that she doesn't like nor wear skirts and that she prefers armor to catsuits. The part about crass lines is a big WTF on the topic.

I'm replaying the EC right now, the rebuild pic is nowhere to be found, I choose destroy, not sure about you. Re watch the talk in the tank, when they are going to the needle thingy that cleans the atmosphere.

Exactly my point... every action of Cerberus is stupidity incarnated.

Modifié par mauro2222, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:10 .


#265
LinksOcarina

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Because I didn't want to give you my full explanation, you call me a troll which is an insult to me, and now you expect me to answer your question?

Doesn't work like that.

But i'll throw a bone and tell you I like Aveline. But I already met a non-stereotypical woman that was strong and capable on her own. Several of them in fact came from the Mass Effect franchise and were done better. Ashley comes to mind. And playing dating service with Aveline wasn't my idea of a great mission.


I did call you a troll, but honestly the way you were acting it felt like I was dealing with one. Sorry if I was wrong, but blanket statements like the one you made ****** me off immensely because it just gets us nowhere and doesn't provide insight on why people think that way, other than shouting and contributing nothing to a thread. Hell i'm guilty of it too sometimes...but anyway i digress. 

One thing to point out though, the non-stereotypical woman aspect about Aveline is just the template she uses. What makes Aveline great is the fact that she was so afraid of Donnic in act II. It wasn't the best mission in the game by far, but it was entertaining and showed growth of Aveline's character: we saw her weakness basically, her doubts as being a suitor to someone she cares about. 

And this is important because characters need to be strong and weak at the same time, it gives complex dynamism to them. For Aveline, her weakness was not her loyalty or her strength, but her inability to be with Donnic. She lost a husband, obviously mourns him even though she puts on a visage against Hawke, and tries to pursue Donnic but fails to do so because of her own insecurities. It makes her much more interesting because of this, it is not just a non-stereotypical woman, but an actual woman, and that is a huge distinction compared to Ashley, for instance. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .


#266
The Interloper

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The writing's never been perfect, has occasionally stumbled, and it's certainly vulnerable to nitpicking. But it never truly crossed the line until you-know-when.

Modifié par The Interloper, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .


#267
mauro2222

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txgoldrush wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


You know, it this is what you think, it invalidates your stance on ME1 characters not having development.

You can change Garrus views.
You can harden Kaidan.
Helping Wrex with his armor brings new dialogue about trust and allows you to convince him about the cure.

Same with DA:O.


I said Wrex is the only ME1 character that has real development.

Garrus views doesn't matter, he becomes Archangel. He follows the Renegade path.

Yet, through all this, they still lack development outside Wrex.

Javik's case is different, not only does he have conversation development, but plot development as well.


Becoming archangel is not a renegade path, and in no way invalidates his change of view wich he still holds and that is character development. And in case you didn't know, you're using ME2 here.

Plot development? you need to clarify that. And he's no different since we don't know if he commited suicide. 

#268
gmboy902

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The Interloper wrote...

The writing's never been perfect, has occasionally stumbled, and it's certainly vulnerable to nitpicking. But it never truly crossed the line until you-know-when.


I wouldn't say nit-picking is necessary for ME1, though. Saying "why doesn't Harbinger shoot the Normandy" is nit-picking, because that scene was important enough for plot development that we could overlook possible illogicalities. Seeing a hardened soldier suddenly go bananas over a previously unheard of, or at least mythical, race of robot gods and being convinced that they were coming back to kill everyone because he saw some jumbled up pictures in a beacon, that isn't nitpicking. They could have done that better. They could have introduced the Reapers by name earlier, then fed the player increasingly less subtle facts about the Protheans' exctinction. Liara would have been a great character to help lead such a revelation.

#269
mauro2222

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I'm going to bed now, I'll continue tomorrow.

#270
Mathias

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I felt very little with Avenline. But with Ashley there was a strong bond between us and i'm not just talking about the romance.

I rescued her when she witnessed her whole platoon get killed and was running for her life. She was there to chat with me about life, politics, beliefs, family, being a soldier, all that fun stuff. We had each others backs in tight situations when we were being bombarded by enemies all around us. We went through Kaiden's death together and comforted each other when needed. She was there to pick me up off my feet when I was at my lowest point. And finally when I had made one of the most daring moves of my life and spent the whole night pacing in my room all nerve wracked, there she was. To be with me before the storm.

I felt our bond throughout the whole game grow and become something unbreakable. And i can say the same thing about other characters like Wrex. At first he didn't trust me and we both got on each others nerves, but then we both slowly gained respect for each other. By the end of the game, it felt like we were true brothers in arms.

I didn't get that kind of friendship with any of the characters from DA2. Granted i'm know Hawke formed bonds with these characters, and we saw their friendships grow, I didn't feel like it had the same power as the ones from ME1.

#271
Zero132132

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N-Seven wrote...

I liked the characterization in ME 3.  A lot of the scenes were really touching and believable, something I didn't get in ME1.  The romance in ME1 for example, I didn't  find it terribly convincing.   'What I say 6 nice things to this girl and into the sack we go?'   Advancing the relationships felt mechanical and gamey, and none of the dialogue or voice acting really got me into really caring.

In ME3, if you choose to break up with Miranda, that scene surprised me...it made me feel genuinely BAD.   While the tender scenes with Liara, I could almost think 'wow she's sweet as hell I think I actually care about this character'.   I didn't get either of those vibes in 1 or 2...the romancing was just 'gameplay' to me, and not something I did because I genuinely cared for the characters.

The one thing ME1 got right in the romance department that was weird as **** in ME3 is that characters don't even notice if you're sort of pursuing two romantic relationships at once, but as soon as you're "locked-in," everyone else randomly loses interest. ME1 had the confrontational scene if you're romancing both Liara and Ashley where they show up demanding that you make a decision. I wish they'd had something similar later on, but I think the number of potential pairings and interactions between those pairings was just too much.

#272
Dusen

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A) There's one thing in saying "Okay Shepard, we'll go hunt your theory" and Liara saying she's in physical shock from discovering the answer to her studies for the last 50 years. After hearing a half-crazed story from a military man who she met ten minutes prior. About death robots.

It's been a while since I've played, but she did bond with him after Eden Prime, so she would have seen the same vision as him.

B) Okay...? Just because Shepard provides a theory doesn't mean it is the only theory. If I said that the colonists on Roanoke Island were devoured by jaguars because I saw drawings of cats on one of the walls, would that hold up? (Granted, that island isn't much of a mystery anymore. They all went and had native babies.)

My point here was that a super-advanced race of aliens mysteriously disappeared from the galaxy without any clue as to why. You must admit that it presents a much different mystery than that of the Roanoke Island colonists. As you alluded to, their fate was understandable, as they sought food and comfort with the natives, and it had already been guessed at by historians over the years. The fate of a galaxy-spanning alien race is not so easily explained away. It is true though that this alone does not prove anything, rather it gives a good indication that something beyond the ordinary happened (like an invasion by evil cuttlefish from hell).

C) He doesn't see some massive tell-all vision. He sees tiny, split-second fragments of pictures of machinery. The images aren't even intended for his mind, but a Prothean's.

My view on this is highly debateable for sure, but I always took it, especially from conversations with Liara, that we (ie the players) didn't see the full vision but only snippets so as to preserve the mystery behind the Reapers and the Protheans (this is possible from a development perspective in that Bioware clearly didn't have an idea on what a Reaper invasion would look like. It's always been my theory that they never originally intended for the Reapers to ever reach our galaxy during the course of the series and that we would defeat them before they ever invaded simply because they are set up as such a huge enemy).

D) I'm not sure if it happens in other cases, but if you pick Liara up first then she just takes his word on the galaxy's greatest mystery.

Going back to my last answer, I always assumed, mostly from her exclamation after bonding with Shepard, that she had seen the same, full-length vision as Shepard. Once again, I know this is highly debateable.

E?) First of all, nobody knows what Reapers look like. For all we know, he could just have some proto-type Geth capital ship. They haven't been seen in years, after all. Secondly, he hates humans. What's to say he hasn't just snapped and tagged along with the Geth promising them to return their so-called gods in return for killing humanity. Not only could he be delusional, he honestly would seem so were it not for BioWare blatantly telling us the Reapers are real.

Again, the existence of this new ship (Sovereign) isn't proof enough, but it's just more evidence, not to mention that the Geth haven't left their sector of space for centuries, and yet now they are following an organic for unkown reasons. While Saren is anti-human, he early on kills a fellow Turian SPECTRE in cold blood for no real reason, but that really should be metagaming to an extent. We weren't there after all and only hear of it afterwards from a witness. All of this circumstantial evidence comes together to give a lot of validity to the Reaper threat IMO, perhaps not quite as much as Bioware put out early on in the game, but that is where I will agree that it was somewhat forced. That in no way though makes it a plot hole by any means, more of a stretch of the plot to cicumvent the relatively unfleshed-out vision that we (the players) saw.

ME3's two best story arcs, Rannoch and Tuchanka, were both packed full of emotion and plot twists. They had difficult choices and great writing. The Citadel invasion was a bit forced, but not all-together awful. You had great bits like EDI and Joker, Liara and her capsule, and that last chat with Anderson. The ending wasn't fantastic even after the EC, but I think the story - though perhaps not "better" than ME1, was more stable.

I wholeheartedly agree that Palaven's moon, Rannoch and Tuchanka were both some of the best story arcs in the entire series, without a doubt. I don't agree so much with the Citadel invasion as I feel that it was forcefully pushed on us, even generating plot holes on its own that the game points out yet does't answer (Where was the citadel defense fleet? Someone in C-Sec mentions this but AFAIK no one gives an answer). There were definitely other good parts of ME3, but what really killed it before I even got to the endings was how Bioware destroyed the Rachni story arc from the first game. I mean outright destroyed it.

What I really miss about Mass Effect 1 is two things; the emphasis on discovery and exploration (yes, including the fridge-on-wheels planet exploration), and the omnipotent, unknowable Reapers.

Totally agree with you 100%. I even think that the so called out of place exploration can be explained away by the idea that evidence about Saren doesn't all come in at once. Shepard, in the meantime, performs side quests as the new SPECTRE.

#273
txgoldrush

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mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Javik, Liara, Cortez, and James also had very strong character development. Javik actually develops according to whether he touches the shard or not.


You know, it this is what you think, it invalidates your stance on ME1 characters not having development.

You can change Garrus views.
You can harden Kaidan.
Helping Wrex with his armor brings new dialogue about trust and allows you to convince him about the cure.

Same with DA:O.


I said Wrex is the only ME1 character that has real development.

Garrus views doesn't matter, he becomes Archangel. He follows the Renegade path.

Yet, through all this, they still lack development outside Wrex.

Javik's case is different, not only does he have conversation development, but plot development as well.


Becoming archangel is not a renegade path, and in no way invalidates his change of view wich he still holds and that is character development. And in case you didn't know, you're using ME2 here.

Plot development? you need to clarify that. And he's no different since we don't know if he commited suicide. 


so becoming a vigilante is not Renegade? Whoa there.

Javik's character gets development through the actual plot, unlike everyone in ME1 except for Wrex.

And if ME1's development was sufficent, why all the offscreen development for ME2?

Maybe because the characters were not developed enough.

#274
gmboy902

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Dusen wrote...

gmboy902 wrote...

Mass Effect pulled all of the cliche sci-fi tricks, but it did them well. The problem was that things just felt forced. Shepard suddenly believes in the Reapers because he has to be the one to stop them. Liara believes him because she has to help. BioWare ignored bits and pieces of their own lore to advance the plot, and someone who takes an in-depth look at the codex and planet descriptions will notice that.

It was a great game. Were it not for the pretty flawed combat system (especially for low-armor classes like infiltrators), it would perhaps be better than ME3, but I'm not quite sure now. I'll have to play through all three to tell.


I honestly don't have that hard of a time accepting that Shepard became very interested in the Reapers along with Liara shortly thereafter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did recieve a Prothean vision about their extinction at the hands of the Reapers, and Liara witnessed it after bonding or whatever with Shepard right after that mission.

I personally didn't notice too many ignored points of lore but it has been a while since I've played the game.


Not a vision. A jumbled mess. It wasn't until he found the Cipher that he really understood it. Until then, it was pictures of some machinery, some flesh, a bit of destruction. So vague. And someone mentions the Reapers - mentions them. Suddenly, Shepard is yelling at the Council and proclaiming galactic extinction to be at hand.

And Liara just really ticked me off. She's spent more time than Shepard has been alive researching the Protheans. She knows infinitely more about the circumstances of their vanishing act than Shepard. Yet he comes along with some wild theory about terminator robots and she becomes just as firm in this belief as he is. Even though there's no proof of such a theory beside the half-vision Shepard got on Eden Prime?

You don't really notice the inconsistencies until you're familiar with the story and also decide to go through it completely. Read every codex entry, every dialog option, every planet description and you'll get a few "what huh?" moments.

Also, I liked the change to heat clips. Somewhat because the overheating felt like a giant middle finger in a giant firefight, but also because every time I tried to reload like all other shooters I ended up chucking grenades. (the default is R on PC and I'm too lazy to change it)

#275
txgoldrush

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Dusen wrote...

A) There's one thing in saying "Okay Shepard, we'll go hunt your theory" and Liara saying she's in physical shock from discovering the answer to her studies for the last 50 years. After hearing a half-crazed story from a military man who she met ten minutes prior. About death robots.

It's been a while since I've played, but she did bond with him after Eden Prime, so she would have seen the same vision as him.

B) Okay...? Just because Shepard provides a theory doesn't mean it is the only theory. If I said that the colonists on Roanoke Island were devoured by jaguars because I saw drawings of cats on one of the walls, would that hold up? (Granted, that island isn't much of a mystery anymore. They all went and had native babies.)

My point here was that a super-advanced race of aliens mysteriously disappeared from the galaxy without any clue as to why. You must admit that it presents a much different mystery than that of the Roanoke Island colonists. As you alluded to, their fate was understandable, as they sought food and comfort with the natives, and it had already been guessed at by historians over the years. The fate of a galaxy-spanning alien race is not so easily explained away. It is true though that this alone does not prove anything, rather it gives a good indication that something beyond the ordinary happened (like an invasion by evil cuttlefish from hell).

C) He doesn't see some massive tell-all vision. He sees tiny, split-second fragments of pictures of machinery. The images aren't even intended for his mind, but a Prothean's.

My view on this is highly debateable for sure, but I always took it, especially from conversations with Liara, that we (ie the players) didn't see the full vision but only snippets so as to preserve the mystery behind the Reapers and the Protheans (this is possible from a development perspective in that Bioware clearly didn't have an idea on what a Reaper invasion would look like. It's always been my theory that they never originally intended for the Reapers to ever reach our galaxy during the course of the series and that we would defeat them before they ever invaded simply because they are set up as such a huge enemy).

D) I'm not sure if it happens in other cases, but if you pick Liara up first then she just takes his word on the galaxy's greatest mystery.

Going back to my last answer, I always assumed, mostly from her exclamation after bonding with Shepard, that she had seen the same, full-length vision as Shepard. Once again, I know this is highly debateable.

E?) First of all, nobody knows what Reapers look like. For all we know, he could just have some proto-type Geth capital ship. They haven't been seen in years, after all. Secondly, he hates humans. What's to say he hasn't just snapped and tagged along with the Geth promising them to return their so-called gods in return for killing humanity. Not only could he be delusional, he honestly would seem so were it not for BioWare blatantly telling us the Reapers are real.

Again, the existence of this new ship (Sovereign) isn't proof enough, but it's just more evidence, not to mention that the Geth haven't left their sector of space for centuries, and yet now they are following an organic for unkown reasons. While Saren is anti-human, he early on kills a fellow Turian SPECTRE in cold blood for no real reason, but that really should be metagaming to an extent. We weren't there after all and only hear of it afterwards from a witness. All of this circumstantial evidence comes together to give a lot of validity to the Reaper threat IMO, perhaps not quite as much as Bioware put out early on in the game, but that is where I will agree that it was somewhat forced. That in no way though makes it a plot hole by any means, more of a stretch of the plot to cicumvent the relatively unfleshed-out vision that we (the players) saw.

ME3's two best story arcs, Rannoch and Tuchanka, were both packed full of emotion and plot twists. They had difficult choices and great writing. The Citadel invasion was a bit forced, but not all-together awful. You had great bits like EDI and Joker, Liara and her capsule, and that last chat with Anderson. The ending wasn't fantastic even after the EC, but I think the story - though perhaps not "better" than ME1, was more stable.

I wholeheartedly agree that Palaven's moon, Rannoch and Tuchanka were both some of the best story arcs in the entire series, without a doubt. I don't agree so much with the Citadel invasion as I feel that it was forcefully pushed on us, even generating plot holes on its own that the game points out yet does't answer (Where was the citadel defense fleet? Someone in C-Sec mentions this but AFAIK no one gives an answer). There were definitely other good parts of ME3, but what really killed it before I even got to the endings was how Bioware destroyed the Rachni story arc from the first game. I mean outright destroyed it.

What I really miss about Mass Effect 1 is two things; the emphasis on discovery and exploration (yes, including the fridge-on-wheels planet exploration), and the omnipotent, unknowable Reapers.

Totally agree with you 100%. I even think that the so called out of place exploration can be explained away by the idea that evidence about Saren doesn't all come in at once. Shepard, in the meantime, performs side quests as the new SPECTRE.


How does ME3 destroy the Rachni arc? Shepard told the queen to go away forever, and thats what she is trying to do. No "destruction" here......in fact, the tragic nature of what happens makes the Rachni arc better. Fans just wanted a Rachni army, they didn't get it, so it sucks....lol

Once again...a plot hole is a contradiction, not because something isn't explained. There is no plot hole with the Citadel coup.