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[translationninja]

Plenty of studies have shown that trying to convince someone on the internet will only result in them reinforcing their initial belief.

Hence, the more we discuss it with TheAngryOne, the more (exponentially) he/she will believe to be right

[MisterJB]

Fawx9 wrote...
If everyone thinks and feels the same as before why does that stop the "conflict"?

Organics are given synthetic upgrades that will allow us ro rely less on machines; thus there will be less chances of AIs beng created; as well as compete with synthetics should we ever go to war; thus there will be less chances of them causing our extinction; and synthetics will be given full understanding of organics as well as true emotions which will stop them from devaluing our lives on the basis that they don't need us anymore.

That doesn't mean it's a "press button for utopia" solution. The Catalyst says it can't forced which leads me to believe unless both forms of life have shown indication of being willing to cooperate, it will fail and war will return.

Conflict is not shown in all Paragon endings, not just Synthesis but only Synthesis is accused of creating a false utopia.

[Fawx9]

shodiswe wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Morrigan says it best:
"Some people fear change and they will fight it with every fiber of their being."

Indeed. Like the Reapers. So they decided to trick Shepard into making everything like them.
Now there will be no more change. Just the order of the Reapers.

Uniformity everlasting.

Despite everyone still being different, thinking diffirently, having different cultures, advancing in way that were unthinkable before.
Uniformity, stagnation. Somehow.

If everyone thinks and feels the same as before why does that stop the "conflict"?

Better communication, information, knowledge, understanding...  Also if hybrids kills hybrids then tis no logner about Organcis and sythietics fighting... The catalysts work is done, but understanding helps when trying to prevent fighting violence and war..

So the 'upgrades' are just a giant synthetic wikipedia uploaded into our heads?

PS Making it sound like the only way to understand something different than you is to force it to be more like you is maybe not the message BioWare should want to send.

[Dakkaface]

I'm not going to get involved in this pissing match, but suffice to say - I went with Synthesis as my ending choice. 

Logically, I know that there is no reason to to take the Catalyst at his word, and he could be lying to me.  But I went through the trouble of brokering peace between Geth and Quarian, and I pushed EDI and Joker together, and goddamn if I was going to throw away all that work by picking Destroy.  Control leaves a bad taste in my mouth - removes Shepard from the picture without killing him, and leaves him as a disembodied AI.  Also, I spent the whole game telling the Illusive Man that he was a complete moron for thinking he could control the Reapers - my Shep would be a hippocrite for chosing that option.

Synthesis preserves the Geth and EDI AND the grand alliance.  Synthesis doesn't brainwash anyone - but gives them new perspective.  Where organics were a confusing morass of contradictions, geth now understand them.  Where the geth and reapers were coldly mechanical beings operationg on inscrutable logic, the organic races understand them.  Yes, it's stupid space magic, and I would have preferred a better explanation of howit was done rather than the 'a robot wizard did it' that we got, but goddamnit, I liked the ending other than that issue, and the extended cut makes it pretty clear that it isn't entirely happy-shiny.  People still feel sad, still feel emotions - normal conflicts are going to happen, but now everyone has greater understanding of one another. 

Yeah - Shep made a decision that affects the entire galaxy on a personal level.  Nobody should have that power - but he did, and I didn't see how any other choice was better.  Giving everyone the chance for a better life - and hoping that the Synthesis helps connect everyone to prevent a second Krogan Rebellion seemed better to me than Control or Destroy.  Refuse didn't even enter my head - I would not abandon my squadmates and companions to die simply to make a pointless moral stand.

I fault nobody for the ending the prefer.  There are reasons to pick each ending, and I find it frankly sad that anyone tries hold themselves morally superior over a single choice in a video game.

[Ridwan]

translationninja wrote...

Plenty of studies have shown that trying to convince someone on the internet will only result in them reinforcing their initial belief.

Hence, the more we discuss it with TheAngryOne, the more (exponentially) he/she will believe to be right

The funny thing is, she is right. Anyone supporting Synthesis is no different than the Master in Fallout 1.

[Baronesa]

translationninja wrote...

Wonder why my reply just disappeared. And, I beg to differ. Once a perfect equilibrium between an environment and its inhabitants is achieved (if that is possible is purely hypothetical) mutations would presumably not offer any benefit over prevailing traits, hence become unnecessary.

Nature, left to it's own devices, is incredibly efficient when it comes to cutting out that which doesn't serve a purpose. 

But the enviroment is not static... granted it could remain mostly stable for long periods of times, but once the enviroment changes again, new condiions would be met, and that means adapting to it...

And your answer got tangled with my post... the quirky way quotes work here.

[Krunjar]

'Same result. The Reaper's idea of perfection and the 'pinnacle' of evolution.'

No evidence of that whatsoever that's just youre speculation and honestly the reapers where changed as well by the process. So that kinda defeats youre argument. Reapers are a twisted construct of organic and synthetic elements. Synthesis is a fundamental re write to make the base code of all life the same. It bears similarities but is NOT the same process.

[The Angry One]

translationninja wrote...

Plenty of studies have shown that trying to convince someone on the internet will only result in them reinforcing their initial belief.

Hence, the more we discuss it with TheAngryOne, the more (exponentially) he/she will believe to be right

I see, a subtle insult after you've lost the argument.

If there's one thing I truly appreciate, it's a debater who I can respect due to their well made arguments and ability to express themselves regardless of how much they disagree with me.
You are not one of them.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:00 .

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
All connected to the Reapers. All hybrids. No more synthetics and organics. The same. Uniformity.

All Council species are organics. By your logic, this lead to "The same. Uniformity".

[Rhayak]

Guys, it's a completely different thing. Reapers normally want to turn people into other Reapers in order to preserve them. The Synthesis solution changes everything: there is no longer need for the horrors of the harvest.

Yeah maybe Shepard didn't have the right to choose for everyone. But he was there, the right man in the right place to make history (Shepard's life story, pretty much). And he did it, with the result that the Synthesis ending shows. Peace everlasting.

To refuse that out of misplaced pride is just dull.

[Gorkan86]

Synthesis is not the final evolution of life, it is just another round. Who believes otherwise?

[The Angry One]

Krunjar wrote...

'Same result. The Reaper's idea of perfection and the 'pinnacle' of evolution.'

No evidence of that whatsoever that's just youre speculation and honestly the reapers where changed as well by the process. So that kinda defeats youre argument. Reapers are a twisted construct of organic and synthetic elements. Synthesis is a fundamental re write to make the base code of all life the same. It bears similarities but is NOT the same process.

How are the Reapers "changed". They gain green circuit overlays? Whoopdeedoo. They're already hybrids, regardless of the process used to make them. They remain the same, and they remain unrepentant as synthesis is what the Catalyst has wanted all along.

Gorkan86 wrote...

Synthesis is not the final evolution of life, it is just another round. Who believes otherwise?

Catalyst: "Synthesis is the final evolution of all life."

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:02 .

[translationninja]

M25105 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Plenty of studies have shown that trying to convince someone on the internet will only result in them reinforcing their initial belief.

Hence, the more we discuss it with TheAngryOne, the more (exponentially) he/she will believe to be right

The funny thing is, she is right. Anyone supporting Synthesis is no different than the Master in Fallout 1.

Hmmm, judging people by their choice in a work of fiction based on lots of speculation. I guess I better listen to what you have to say, huh?

[Peranor]

 
"Syntheis is ok because it changes nothing. We will still be the same as before"

Ok, so what's the point of it then?

Modifié par anorling, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:02 .

[o Ventus]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Synthesis is not the final evolution of life, it is just another round. Who believes otherwise?

You mean aside from the Catalyst?

[legion999]

Krunjar wrote...

'Same result. The Reaper's idea of perfection and the 'pinnacle' of evolution.'

No evidence of that whatsoever that's just youre speculation and honestly the reapers where changed as well by the process. So that kinda defeats youre argument. Reapers are a twisted construct of organic and synthetic elements. Synthesis is a fundamental re write to make the base code of all life the same. It bears similarities but is NOT the same process.

Yeah and that was my point.

It is a different process. But at the end we have the Reaper ideal of what life is. 

[Anti-killer]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Synthesis is not the final evolution of life, it is just another round. Who believes otherwise?

The Cybermen?

all they want to do is Upgrade the entire universe...

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
All connected to the Reapers. All hybrids. No more synthetics and organics. The same. Uniformity.

All Council species are organics. By your logic, this lead to "The same. Uniformity".

They are not forced to be organic. They simply are.
Synthetics could live among them, and with the Geth that potential could finally be realised.
They are not forced to be connected. To no longer conflict, are they? Synthesis has to force that.. or it's pointless.

[Gorkan86]

The Angry One wrote...
Catalyst: "Synthesis is the final evolution of all life."

Would you like to say that he is never wrong?

[shodiswe]

The Angry One wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Angry One, This has nothing to do with the reapers husks or their reaper constructs. Synthesis and control has nothign to do with it. The reapers and husks were simply the cleaning crew for the lab work.

I can see if you found their methods questionable and monsterous. However in the very moment Shepard stands there, shepard has a choice to make.
Synthesis doesn't huskify the people, it gives everyone the quivalent of electrcity, TV, computers and internet. Improved standards of living and better understanding, it doesn't erradicate individuals or individual tohughts or dreams, but empowers them with the tools to accomplish more.
However the boon and technological advacne and gift was gained though barbaric and immoral methods. This taints the research, ethically. Do you support this kind of Research? It's similar to Maelons genophage cure data that could save Eve, but on a much larger scale.

Control is the option to reject the research and arrest/kill the catalyst and put the reapers into community service, repairing the material damage caused, and ensuring it doesn't happen again.

Destroy is the path of vengeans, killign the catalyst the reapers and billions of innocent synthetics aswell as causing material damage to technology aroudn the galaxy, including the relays. Which wont be repaired as easily and will take mroe work from the galactic community.

Shepard as a spectre, alliance officer and spokesman/woman for the allied forces and the one who brought abotu this change has democratic representative power to make this choice. It's in the job descriotion of a spectre until the council says otherwise, it's also in the jobdescription of a diplomat and hero that has managed to unite every specis in the galaxy.

You have the democratic representative right and responsibility to represent the interests of the galaxy. Trillions of lives are depending on your choice. Lets hope you got what it takes to make the right choice.

The right choice is never synthesis. All you're doing is sugar-coating it. "It'll improve everything!".
Yeah. That's what spacebaby says about being turned into Reaper goo too. "Ascension" it calls it.
Do not try to counter my arguments with propaganda. It's galactic scale huskification, and it's forced. Nobody has the right to do that.

Rejection is not a choice, is more like Hitler telling Rommel to fight to the last man when outnumbered 2 to 1, instead of considering other available options. Or when they were eventualy outnumbered 10 to 1. It's the choice of a madman.

When the alternative is surrender to beings who think you nothing more than construction material? Please.

Yet they arn't turned into husks, were already told as much.. It's not the Reapers propaganda it's Biowares vision. I know you hate it btw. It's personal.

However if you feel that Synthesis is the wrong solution and want something more oldfashioned you can pick control and arrest the reapers and put things right without giving the galaxy the benifits of synthesis and let them fidn their own solution by lettign everyone have a say abotu their future. Assuming you had a paragon control ending that sees the value of people right to determine their own future.

Destory kills billions of geth and possibly other synthetics. Which makes it very unethical.

Reject is as I said, madness. Worse than destroy. Since it kills everyone and keeps the cycle going killing trillions every 50000 years. It would probably be Hitlers choice, unless Destory would kill the equivalent of the Jews then Destroy would be optimal.

[Femlob]

Anti-killer wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

Synthesis is not the final evolution of life, it is just another round. Who believes otherwise?

The Cybermen?

all they want to do is Upgrade the entire universe...

Careful; Cybermen sounds way too much like Cheetahmen.

[Ridwan]

translationninja wrote...

M25105 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Plenty of studies have shown that trying to convince someone on the internet will only result in them reinforcing their initial belief.

Hence, the more we discuss it with TheAngryOne, the more (exponentially) he/she will believe to be right

The funny thing is, she is right. Anyone supporting Synthesis is no different than the Master in Fallout 1.

Hmmm, judging people by their choice in a work of fiction based on lots of speculation. I guess I better listen to what you have to say, huh?

The Master's logic: "To have peace and end all war, we must take the next step and make everyone mutants. Only then will be able to reach our potential"

Synthesis logic: "To have peace and end all war, we must synthesise everyone, changing their genetic core. Only then can we reach our full potential."

Sounds pretty much the same to me. So yeah, I think I'll stay who I am and not end up as a freak.

[translationninja]

legion999 wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

'Same result. The Reaper's idea of perfection and the 'pinnacle' of evolution.'

No evidence of that whatsoever that's just youre speculation and honestly the reapers where changed as well by the process. So that kinda defeats youre argument. Reapers are a twisted construct of organic and synthetic elements. Synthesis is a fundamental re write to make the base code of all life the same. It bears similarities but is NOT the same process.

Yeah and that was my point.

It is a different process. But at the end we have the Reaper ideal of what life is. 

And their ideals must not come through!!!!!!!!

Whether they were actually beneficial, or would have prevented more deaths, or would have improved the lifes of trillions....irrelevant.....

[MisterJB]

anorling wrote...
"Syntheis is ok because it changes nothing. We will still be the same as before"

Ok, so what's the point of it then?

Synthetic upgrades to organics, true life to synthetics (I'm going to be called racist for this) and the Reapers are freed.
Some people would argue this is bad but I believe otherwise. Killing a Reaper is genocide. They deserve another opportunity at life and their knowledge can greatly benefit our civilizations.

[The Angry One]

shodiswe wrote...

Yet they arn't turned into husks, were already told as much.. It's not the Reapers propaganda it's Biowares vision. I know you hate it btw. It's personal.

We're told no such thing.

However if you feel that Synthesis is the wrong solution and want something more oldfashioned you can pick control and arrest the reapers and put things right without giving the galaxy the benifits of synthesis and let them fidn their own solution by lettign everyone have a say abotu their future. Assuming you had a paragon control ending that sees the value of people right to determine their own future.

Old fashioned? I want to defeat the Reapers, as I promised the galaxy, as they gave me authorisation to do. That and that alone. Not join them. Not rule them. Defeat them.

Destory kills billions of geth and possibly other synthetics. Which makes it very unethical.

Synthesis kills everyone and replaces them with hybrids wearing their faces.

Reject is as I said, madness. Worse than destroy. Since it kills everyone and keeps the cycle going killing trillions every 50000 years. It would probably be Hitlers choice, unless Destory would kill the equivalent of the Jews then Destroy would be optimal.

Those deaths are due to the Catalyst.
You know, the thing that promotes synthesis.