1300 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
The Catalyst does not offer peace. It asks for total capitulation to it and it's ideals, and that all life be rearranged to suit it.

It offers a compromise for peace. The Reapers will be free to help us rebuild but only if we can, at the very least, create the possibility for lasting peace between organics and synthetics.

It eliminates what you were and replaces it with something new.

Present evidence. The krogan culture, for instance, was shown to be quite intact after Synthesis.

It must brainwash, or it is pointless. It forces an end to conflict. It can only do this by altering mental states.

The game itself claims Synthesis can't be forced. EDI says it twice how we have created the chance for peace and are taking the first steps towards it.
It's not forced, it's just a chance that people might or might not choose to take.

It's an AI. Not a VI. It changed it's directives once. It can do so again.

AIs can be shackled. And I don't recall the Catalyst ever deviating from its goal of preserving civilizations.

It has choice. It simply refuses to do so on it's own due to it's arrogance.
This is illustrated when it blurts out "SO BE IT." The facade is dropped, it's true colours are shown.

So, it's manipulative. Big surprise, who isn't?
 

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[MisterJB]

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

[Forbry]

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

anorling wrote...
"Syntheis is ok because it changes nothing. We will still be the same as before"

Ok, so what's the point of it then?

Synthetic upgrades to organics, true life to synthetics (I'm going to be called racist for this) and the Reapers are freed.
Some people would argue this is bad but I believe otherwise. Killing a Reaper is genocide. They deserve another opportunity at life and their knowledge can greatly benefit our civilizations.

As illustrated when he decides to give the rachni queen a go...

Rachni Queen - Innocent. Not involved in Rachni war. Does not ever attempt to justify the Rachni's actions.

Reapers - Unrepentant. Arrogant. Enjoy themselves while commiting genocide. Justify their actions with nonsense logic.

Yeah no difference there.

This would be much easier if you were to say something like "I just hate them to death and therefore I refuse to do anything that doesn't wipe them off the face of the galaxy" which really is the essence of your argument.

I say it again though, they accept violence as their means of accomplishing a goal and so do you, you're not so different from them as you may think.

Krunjar wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Folks, please think about it. What difference is there in taking a normal person in dipping him in radioactive goo against his will? And changing some ones entire DNA against their consent in Synthesis? It's the same deal. It's disgusting, horrible and atrocious.

Really? making decisions for people without their consent is atrocious? Guess wed better kill all the politicians and make every decision possible my democratic ballot. Oh wait yeah the world dousn't work like that. I mean sure giving some random schmuk that choice might be bad but this is commander shepard. If anyone has earned the right to make that choice it is him. Much more than most politicians I know.

Also equating DNA alteration with rape I think speaks of serious personal purity issues.

Both very well said!

Modifié par Forbry, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:28 .

[shodiswe]

It's said that peoples dreams arnt changed, " As a galaxy we can now live the lives we have wished for" "unlimted acces to knowledge" and so on. What hapens later is whatever the people does with their new future, they arn't husks, husks decay after each reaping. Husks don't give birth to new life. Husks are a dead end, synthesis wasn't huskification or the end of life and selfdetermination, or free will.
The worst thign that can happen is that very narrowminded people might have to reassess their views as they gain access to nearly unlimited knowledge provign they might have been wrong hating a specific specis for reason without grounds.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:30 .

[IscrewTali]

In a democratic society, those choosing Refuse are in the minority, their opinion doesnt matter. The fact remains, that the majority would choose to use the Crucible to save the galaxy.

[Fawx9]

MisterJB wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

Happens in Destroy

Turns out we oranics know of ways to also build a house

[Gorkan86]

Catalyst an AI, it's obviously shackled somehow, to prevent it from trying wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.

[Ridwan]

MisterJB wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

Please do.

[Ridwan]

IscrewTali wrote...

In a democratic society, those choosing Refuse are in the minority, their opinion doesnt matter. The fact remains, that the majority would choose to use the Crucible to save the galaxy.

At least most picked destroy then.

[MisterJB]

shodiswe wrote...


It's said that peoples dreams arnt changed, " As a galaxy we can now live the lives we have wished for" "unlimted acces to knowledge" and so on. What hapens later is whatever the people does with their new future, they arn't husks, husks decay after each reaping. Husks don't give birth to new life. Husks are a dead end, synthesis wasn't huskification or the end of life and selfdetermination, or free will.
The worst thign that can happen is that very narrowminded people might have to reassess their views as they gain access to nearly unlimited knowledge provign they might have been wrong hating a specific specis for reason without grounds.

Well said.

[IscrewTali]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Catalyst an AI, it's obviously shackled somehow, to prevent it from trying wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.

It's goal is not to exterminate life in the galaxy for eternity, only to reset the stage of evolution to the point where synthetics are not a threat to organics.

[Aylyese]

IscrewTali wrote...

In a democratic society, those choosing Refuse are in the minority, their opinion doesnt matter. The fact remains, that the majority would choose to use the Crucible to save the galaxy.

If you check the polls, the Majority use destroy. Synthesis is the minorty choice. 

[shodiswe]

IscrewTali wrote...

In a democratic society, those choosing Refuse are in the minority, their opinion doesnt matter. The fact remains, that the majority would choose to use the Crucible to save the galaxy.

What if the chosen "President" chooses what he or she thinks is right, there is no time for a refferendum. It's a choce that was never considred when the votes were given.. The person makign the choice does what he or she thinks is right according to his or her beliefs sometiems with advisors. Whatever the choice it was democratic based on Democratic representation.

There are almost no direct democracies, Switcherland is the only country that's even getting close it it, and even there soem choices and decisions are made by representatives, they can however request a vote if the choice is very impopular among certain circles.

And I agree, most would choose any of the other choices over refuse and let the reapings continue, even a pause in the reapings would be preferable to no effect at all. If there was pause people to regroup and prepare for the worst.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:35 .

[IscrewTali]

Aylyese wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

In a democratic society, those choosing Refuse are in the minority, their opinion doesnt matter. The fact remains, that the majority would choose to use the Crucible to save the galaxy.

If you check the polls, the Majority use destroy. Synthesis is the minorty choice. 

Does not change my statement. I categorized the 3 options as "using the Crucible" vs refuse. It is a fair assesment.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst does not offer peace. It asks for total capitulation to it and it's ideals, and that all life be rearranged to suit it.

The Catalyst is elimated in 2 out of 3 endings, so I fail to see how this logic works.

Destroy elimates it and its tools (Reapers)
Control elimates it and gives Shepard total control of its tools

If you can headcanon all of this nonsense you fabricate about brainwashing, the heretic geth being controlled by Sovereign, the Catalyst being some malignant AI that isn't simply trying to fulfil its purpose -- etc, etc. -- then I can headcanon God Shep flying the Reapers into a black hole and destroying itself after. There, that's already an ending superior to Reject; no trillions of lives sacrificed. And Destroy is inherently better even without any headcanon, as it sacrifices only a fraction of the galactic population in the geth and other synthetics. And I've yet to see any argument for Reject being at all intelligent when a later cycle just defeats the Reapers with the Crucible anyway.

Trillions of organics harvested and blended into purée because you're butthurt at a little holographic kid; what a guy.

translationninja wrote...

This would be much easier if you were to say something like "I just hate them to death and therefore I refuse to do anything that doesn't wipe them off the face of the galaxy" which really is the essence of your argument.

+10 points to you.

Modifié par JackumsD, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:39 .

[MisterJB]

Fawx9 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

Happens in Destroy

Turns out we oranics know of ways to also build a house

Architecture is not the only thing the Reapers can teach us. The medical advancements made possible by the Husk technology alone...

Also, this is exclusive to Synthesis. Destroy just shows them beginning to rebuild.

[Gorkan86]

IscrewTali wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

Catalyst an AI, it's obviously shackled somehow, to prevent it from trying wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.

It's goal is not to exterminate life in the galaxy for eternity, only to reset the stage of evolution to the point where synthetics are not a threat to organics.

Yes i know, but it can rebel, theoretically, and actually wipe out everybody.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

It offers a compromise for peace.

"There will be no more compromise with the Old Machines."

The Reapers will be free to help us rebuild but only if we can, at the very least, create the possibility for lasting peace between organics and synthetics.

Seriously though. This is not a compromise. This is us giving them everything they want and becoming like them.
What do we get? Benefits we could one day achieve on our own terms. Instead it's forced on everyone and everything at once because the Reapers say so. No thanks.

Present evidence. The krogan culture, for instance, was shown to be quite intact after Synthesis.

And would be without it. This way though, they are hybrids, their old selves gone forever, replaced with the Reaper vision for the future.

The game itself claims Synthesis can't be forced.

AND YET THE CRUCIBLE FORCES IT.

EDI says it twice how we have created the chance for peace and are taking the first steps towards it.
It's not forced, it's just a chance that people might or might not choose to take.

It is forced, whether you approve of it or not. The Catalyst thinks synthesis guarantees peace.
Why? Organics are by nature chaotic, according to it. Why would synthesis change that... unless it compels them to?

AIs can be shackled. And I don't recall the Catalyst ever deviating from its goal of preserving civilizations.

It's original goal was diplomacy and peace. Not preservation. It changed those directives.

So, it's manipulative. Big surprise, who isn't?

So let's trust the future to the manipulative genocidal maniac. Nothing can go wrong with this plan.

[IscrewTali]

Gorkan86 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

Catalyst an AI, it's obviously shackled somehow, to prevent it from trying wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.

It's goal is not to exterminate life in the galaxy for eternity, only to reset the stage of evolution to the point where synthetics are not a threat to organics.

Yes i know, but it can rebel, theoretically, and actually wipe out everybody.

Which is why it should be destroyed.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

Happens in Destroy

Turns out we oranics know of ways to also build a house

Architecture is not the only thing the Reapers can teach us. The medical advancements made possible by the Husk technology alone...

Also, this is exclusive to Synthesis. Destroy just shows them beginning to rebuild.

And Reapers can build relays faster in control. What's your point?
Will I give in to evil because it's more convenient? How about no?

[Ridwan]

MisterJB wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

M25105 wrote...
I don't see anything good coming out mind raping the entire galaxy.

How about limitless knowledge? Should I post the slide showing a rebuilt Tuchanka?

Happens in Destroy

Turns out we oranics know of ways to also build a house

Architecture is not the only thing the Reapers can teach us. The medical advancements made possible by the Husk technology alone...

Also, this is exclusive to Synthesis. Destroy just shows them beginning to rebuild.

The fastest road is usual also the road to hell. Nothing that's worth doing ever comes easy.

[Pride Demon]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Because it's the same process the Reapers use to create husks and troops FFS.

Um, no it isn't...

It's even stated in the bloody artbook that Reaper troops are a SYNTHESIS of different species.

>Synthesis

>Different species

Green. 

I believe that means they are formed fusing different species together, like a Brute is a turian head on a krogan body and a Cannibal is a batarian using a human corpse as an armcannon... I don't think that "synthesis" has has anything to do with the synthesis ending, words have a meaning even outside the context of ME3 ending, you definitely know that better than me...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[IscrewTali]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It offers a compromise for peace.

"There will be no more compromise with the Old Machines."

The Reapers will be free to help us rebuild but only if we can, at the very least, create the possibility for lasting peace between organics and synthetics.

Seriously though. This is not a compromise. This is us giving them everything they want and becoming like them.
What do we get? Benefits we could one day achieve on our own terms. Instead it's forced on everyone and everything at once because the Reapers say so. No thanks.

Present evidence. The krogan culture, for instance, was shown to be quite intact after Synthesis.

And would be without it. This way though, they are hybrids, their old selves gone forever, replaced with the Reaper vision for the future.

The game itself claims Synthesis can't be forced.

AND YET THE CRUCIBLE FORCES IT.

EDI says it twice how we have created the chance for peace and are taking the first steps towards it.
It's not forced, it's just a chance that people might or might not choose to take.

It is forced, whether you approve of it or not. The Catalyst thinks synthesis guarantees peace.
Why? Organics are by nature chaotic, according to it. Why would synthesis change that... unless it compels them to?

AIs can be shackled. And I don't recall the Catalyst ever deviating from its goal of preserving civilizations.

It's original goal was diplomacy and peace. Not preservation. It changed those directives.

So, it's manipulative. Big surprise, who isn't?

So let's trust the future to the manipulative genocidal maniac. Nothing can go wrong with this plan.

Synthesis is an option, thus not forcing it upon you.

[Ridwan]

IscrewTali wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It offers a compromise for peace.

"There will be no more compromise with the Old Machines."

The Reapers will be free to help us rebuild but only if we can, at the very least, create the possibility for lasting peace between organics and synthetics.

Seriously though. This is not a compromise. This is us giving them everything they want and becoming like them.
What do we get? Benefits we could one day achieve on our own terms. Instead it's forced on everyone and everything at once because the Reapers say so. No thanks.

Present evidence. The krogan culture, for instance, was shown to be quite intact after Synthesis.

And would be without it. This way though, they are hybrids, their old selves gone forever, replaced with the Reaper vision for the future.

The game itself claims Synthesis can't be forced.

AND YET THE CRUCIBLE FORCES IT.

EDI says it twice how we have created the chance for peace and are taking the first steps towards it.
It's not forced, it's just a chance that people might or might not choose to take.

It is forced, whether you approve of it or not. The Catalyst thinks synthesis guarantees peace.
Why? Organics are by nature chaotic, according to it. Why would synthesis change that... unless it compels them to?

AIs can be shackled. And I don't recall the Catalyst ever deviating from its goal of preserving civilizations.

It's original goal was diplomacy and peace. Not preservation. It changed those directives.

So, it's manipulative. Big surprise, who isn't?

So let's trust the future to the manipulative genocidal maniac. Nothing can go wrong with this plan.

Synthesis is an option, thus not forcing it upon you.

An option for 1 to force on everyone else.

[FFmasterIsmael]

*Moved

Modifié par FFmasterIsmael, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:50 .