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[KingNothing125]

Because BioWare jammed it so full of hearts and rainbows and the power of friendship, that the only thing missing is a flashing neon sign that says "PLEASE PICK THIS ENDING! LOVE, BIOWARE"

Saccharine ending is saccharine.

[Femlob]

Why is everyone so against Synthesis?

What is it based upon? What is it that allows Synthesis to do what it does?

There is no credible explanation.

Of course, this is true for every ending save Reject. Not playing the GlowBoy game causes you to lose, but at least you don't need space magic to explain it.

[The Angry One]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I could live with the Geth dying as a consequence of the war, sacrificing themselves.
But as the hostages to the Catalyst? Victims of it's last whim? Bad taste in my mouth.

And for what? So synthetics can be recreated in a few decades? How pointless.

"To end all war, a line must be crossed. A line where your morals are stripped away, your values negated and your ideals disentigrated. War strips everything you are away, until only the line remains."

The means to an end, the means to an end...

Refusal is the most arrogant option because it assumes everyone else is willing to die so Shep can hold onto his/her prescious morals and values. Stand on the ashes of a trillion dead families and ask them if honor or morals ever mattered. Because it doesn't, not in a brutal and unforgiving war like that. Sometimes you have to make a disgusting choice to end the horror of war, it's just how far you are willing to loose yourself to accomplish that.

Destroy was the line I was willing to cross, control and synthesis never. And Refusal was never an option, I care far too much about the entire galaxy to let my morals blind me. 

Reject isn't just Shepard's morals, but the will of the galaxy united in opposition to the Reapers.
If this cycle can't stop them, then the next will, and build a future free from their vision.

[Madecologist]

Cyne wrote...

it's genetic mutation of every species in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent

Exactly.

To the OP, there are indeed millions of threads (okay not millions but close), that explains why so man see Synthesis as disquisting and morally repugnant. But that line sumarises the basic gist of it.

Also remember you do this to all life. Imagine a Bronze Age Civilisation who the Repears have not gotton to yet (since they take care of potential threats first) or maybe one that was going to be spared in this cycle. It suddenly gets hit by a green pulse and then... everything is different. Heck imagine that happening to a post atomic/information age civilisation (which do tend to be culled but at this stage of the war the Reapers probably haven't touched them yet).

Imagine our Earth today gets hit by that beam, I am pretty sure you will have mass suicide cults, public mass hysteria, heck it might even spark wars between nations. Even in the most ideal situation I would still expect mass suicides and hysteria (that is assuming people gain clear knowledge of what happened to them and why, some people will still not want to accept it).

Synthesis is one of those things that when you start peeling away at its onion you start getting disturbing revelations. Either it makes no sense as to why it can pull it off, to moral questions that can even make me sick to the stomach, to things I just described above. Look up Fridge Horror (and Fridge Logic while at it) at TVTropes, Synthesis is a classical example of it.

To understand the morallity of it, let us do a thought excercise. Imagine in your hand you had a device or chemical, this device could remove war, murder, and all that violent stuff. It would remove violent aggression out of people and that it would work properly (and won't back fire like the thing from the movie Serenity (Firefly)). Creating universal peace is seen as a good thing usually, but the question is... would it be right for you to activate this device? If you understand why many would say no, you would understand why Synthesis is so revolting.

I am aware Synthesis is more of a physical change than a psychological one (heck some argue it does both... but for now lets just say it is a physical). However it being physical or mental does not change the moral question raised above, it is still the same thing: imposing a change on everyone, everywhere without their proper consent or knowledge of what is to come.

Modifié par Madecologist, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:14 .

[Reptilian Rob]

The Angry One wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I could live with the Geth dying as a consequence of the war, sacrificing themselves.
But as the hostages to the Catalyst? Victims of it's last whim? Bad taste in my mouth.

And for what? So synthetics can be recreated in a few decades? How pointless.

"To end all war, a line must be crossed. A line where your morals are stripped away, your values negated and your ideals disentigrated. War strips everything you are away, until only the line remains."

The means to an end, the means to an end...

Refusal is the most arrogant option because it assumes everyone else is willing to die so Shep can hold onto his/her prescious morals and values. Stand on the ashes of a trillion dead families and ask them if honor or morals ever mattered. Because it doesn't, not in a brutal and unforgiving war like that. Sometimes you have to make a disgusting choice to end the horror of war, it's just how far you are willing to loose yourself to accomplish that.

Destroy was the line I was willing to cross, control and synthesis never. And Refusal was never an option, I care far too much about the entire galaxy to let my morals blind me. 

Reject isn't just Shepard's morals, but the will of the galaxy united in opposition to the Reapers.
If this cycle can't stop them, then the next will, and build a future free from their vision.

Except the next cycle uses the Crucible, making "our" war completely pointless. The Crucible is going to be used one way or another, might as well be my Shep using the damned thing and end it right then and now. 

"It takes a strong man to admit what he's done, it takes a stronger man to deny what's right in front of him."

[translationninja]

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

There is no indication or clue in the game whatsoever that would indicate people turn into "brainwashed" or "mindless" husks by synthesis.

People really make this up as they go.

just saying...

Except the part where everybody just accepts the Reapers that murdered their friends and loved ones. Just like that. Everybody is happy and together with unicorns and puppies.

Transcending to a realm of thought and existence you can't even imagine.

I think every philosophical/religious/whatever theme around in the history of humankind has some sort of "revenge is bad" clue factored in.

And frankly, nothing good has ever come from revenge.

Would you kill all Germans too? They certainly behaved Reaper'ish not too long ago...

[Elite Midget]

Because it's stupid, betrays the Galaxy, rapes the Galaxy, and you're turning everyone into mini-Reapers against their will.

[Pantegana]

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

There is no indication or clue in the game whatsoever that would indicate people turn into "brainwashed" or "mindless" husks by synthesis.

People really make this up as they go.

just saying...

Except the part where everybody just accepts the Reapers that murdered their friends and loved ones. Just like that. Everybody is happy and together with unicorns and puppies.

Transcending to a realm of thought and existence you can't even imagine.

I think every philosophical/religious/whatever theme around in the history of humankind has some sort of "revenge is bad" clue factored in.

And frankly, nothing good has ever come from revenge.

Would you kill all Germans too? They certainly behaved Reaper'ish not too long ago...

Except that those Germans were not immortal spaceborn machines O_o

[Forbry]

Someone else on this forum put down this idea (sorry, don't know where I've read it or who wrote it), but I really felt that person had a very good point:

You didn't ask to be born. So do you think your parents have violated you, commit some gruesome act by creating your existence?

[Forbry]

And I think synthesis comes not even close to birth as far as impact concerns.

[The Angry One]

Forbry wrote...

Someone else on this forum put down this idea (sorry, don't know where I've read it or who wrote it), but I really felt that person had a very good point:

You didn't ask to be born. So do you think your parents have violated you, commit some gruesome act by creating your existence?

Being born =! having your very being altered once you're already a functioning individual.
Poor justification, as expected of synthesis supporters.

translationninja wrote...

I think every
philosophical/religious/whatever theme around in the history of
humankind has some sort of "revenge is bad" clue factored in.

And frankly, nothing good has ever come from revenge.

Would you kill all Germans too? They certainly behaved Reaper'ish not too long ago...

Hey, since you Godwinned the thread, guess what. Do you think post war Britain would've accepted unrepentant ****s parading around in **** uniforms in London just because they were helping rebuild?

No. People aren't like that. Even if they were sincere, wounds take time to heal. They would not accept Reapers being among them just like that without mental coercion.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[translationninja]

Pantegana wrote...

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

There is no indication or clue in the game whatsoever that would indicate people turn into "brainwashed" or "mindless" husks by synthesis.

People really make this up as they go.

just saying...

Except the part where everybody just accepts the Reapers that murdered their friends and loved ones. Just like that. Everybody is happy and together with unicorns and puppies.

Transcending to a realm of thought and existence you can't even imagine.

I think every philosophical/religious/whatever theme around in the history of humankind has some sort of "revenge is bad" clue factored in.

And frankly, nothing good has ever come from revenge.

Would you kill all Germans too? They certainly behaved Reaper'ish not too long ago...

Except that those Germans were not immortal spaceborn machines O_o

That makes even less sense, if they are "only" machines, then what is the purpose of destroying them after they have been reprogrammed?

[Reptilian Rob]

Forbry wrote...

Someone else on this forum put down this idea (sorry, don't know where I've read it or who wrote it), but I really felt that person had a very good point:

You didn't ask to be born. So do you think your parents have violated you, commit some gruesome act by creating your existence?

Horrible analogy, when you are born you havn't known anything else outside of that nanosecond before.

With synthesis you are forcibly changing people who have been alive for a very long time, some far into adulthood. 

[Solaxe]

McCredie64 wrote...

Because it's a terrible concept, it's like the writers are trying to say that the only way everyone can get along is to make them all the same. Homogenization I believe it's called. For example, it's as if they're telling us the best solution to stopping racism is to make everyone white.

uhm no? Krogans are still Krogans and they keep their unique culture. So do Asari, Humans, Quarians etc

[translationninja]

The Angry One wrote...

Poor justification, as expected of synthesis supporters.

You know, I thought for once I can have a civilized discussion about this, weighing merits against downsides, but 3 posts in the labels start flying again....

/me sighs

[KotorEffect3]

Still better than refusal

[Escocido]

Pantegana wrote...

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

There is no indication or clue in the game whatsoever that would indicate people turn into "brainwashed" or "mindless" husks by synthesis.

People really make this up as they go.

just saying...

Except the part where everybody just accepts the Reapers that murdered their friends and loved ones. Just like that. Everybody is happy and together with unicorns and puppies.

Transcending to a realm of thought and existence you can't even imagine.

I think every philosophical/religious/whatever theme around in the history of humankind has some sort of "revenge is bad" clue factored in.

And frankly, nothing good has ever come from revenge.

Would you kill all Germans too? They certainly behaved Reaper'ish not too long ago...

Except that those Germans were not immortal spaceborn machines O_o

Immortal spaceborn bionic ****s? Please someone make it happen. 

[Pantegana]

translationninja wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

Except that those Germans were not immortal spaceborn machines O_o

That makes even less sense, if they are "only" machines, then what is the purpose of destroying them after they have been reprogrammed?

Didn't say they're "only" machines. I said they are immortal, spaceborn machines. And I might add with a strong aptituded for indoctrinating organic lifeforms with the purposes enslaving them and SYNTHESIZING them with machines.

[The Angry One]

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Poor justification, as expected of synthesis supporters.

You know, I thought for once I can have a civilized discussion about this, weighing merits against downsides, but 3 posts in the labels start flying again....

/me sighs

I can debate anyone on the merits on many things.
Synthesis has no merits that are worth the price it asks us to pay, and all the justifications for it I've ever seen are hilariously poor.

Forgive me for calling a duck a duck.

[Forbry]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Someone else on this forum put down this idea (sorry, don't know where I've read it or who wrote it), but I really felt that person had a very good point:

You didn't ask to be born. So do you think your parents have violated you, commit some gruesome act by creating your existence?

Horrible analogy, when you are born you havn't known anything else outside of that nanosecond before.

With synthesis you are forcibly changing people who have been alive for a very long time, some far into adulthood. 

Your parents didn't ask you first if you wanted to be born. They just decided that for you. O f course, being born and synthesis isn't the same, but I think it is a damn good analogy for thinking different about "force" in this case.

[Auckmid]

While destroy is definately the most popular choice, control seems like a way better choice if you are going down the peace path. My Shepard already showed the Catylyst how deluded he was by making peace between the Quarians and Geth, and how synthetics and organics don't need synergy to make peace. What is the advantage of giving into the reapers and forcing all species to immediately change into a different form? Completely unaware civilizations could be forced into becoming part synthetic, which could easily destroy huge amounts of individuality and culture. While there may be some disagreement, those are traits I prize quite highly, and I won't force every single person in the galaxy to give it up just because the leader of the reapers casualy recommends it as the best desicion. Control can bring peace between organics and synthetics without making those sacrafises (and yes, I do see forcing every organic creature to change form as a sacrafise).

On a bit of an off topic thought, why did we need an official refusal ending to rebel against the Catylyst? Imo, synthesis was the only choice in which Shepard was accepting what the Catylyst was saying, and giving in to it's vision. Isn't killing the Catylyst a better way to rebel against it's visons then shooting it, or saying it's wrong. Sure, he may be mad for a little bit, but I'm that sure killing you and all other advanced civilizations in the galaxy will cheer it up.

[translationninja]

Pantegana wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

Except that those Germans were not immortal spaceborn machines O_o

That makes even less sense, if they are "only" machines, then what is the purpose of destroying them after they have been reprogrammed?

Didn't say they're "only" machines. I said they are immortal, spaceborn machines. And I might add with a strong aptituded for indoctrinating organic lifeforms with the purposes enslaving them and SYNTHESIZING them with machines.

Okay, point taken, but you do acknowledge that these machines are indeed machines and that they in fact have been repurposed/reprogrammed/completely changed?

[The Angry One]

Forbry wrote...

Your parents didn't ask you first if you wanted to be born. They just decided that for you. O f course, being born and synthesis isn't the same, but I think it is a damn good analogy for thinking different about "force" in this case.

You have no rights if you don't exist.
I'm amazed you don't seem to understand this concept.

[translationninja]

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Poor justification, as expected of synthesis supporters.

You know, I thought for once I can have a civilized discussion about this, weighing merits against downsides, but 3 posts in the labels start flying again....

/me sighs

I can debate anyone on the merits on many things.
Synthesis has no merits that are worth the price it asks us to pay, and all the justifications for it I've ever seen are hilariously poor.

Forgive me for calling a duck a duck.

In my humble and personal opinion I think that you are making the mistake of assuming that only you are able to identify ducks.

A state of mind where one thinks they are the only one capable of evaluating a presented fact is very dangerous.

Many individuals in human history that are seen in a very unsavory light in the eyes of history displayed the exact same character trait.

Modifié par translationninja, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:33 .