1300 réponses à ce sujet

[DazenCobalt17]

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

[Jackums]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you have proof they're brainwashed? I'd like to see.

[Carlthestrange]

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

Well, thats kinda what a debate is.

[translationninja]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

[Billyg3453]

I'm going to join this debate 24 pages too late and only read about four posts, but there is no defense for Synthesis. It is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and cannot possibly be taken seriously by anyone.

[Carlthestrange]

translationninja wrote...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

Actually, thats a pretty good way to put it. Because conflict is after all, in human nature.

Can't really speak for the aliens, but... yeah.

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

I wonder how many that leaves dead? Do they still matter?

Are we still talking about the Collector Base?

So why don't you try to find one instead of sitting down and dying?

No clue. Ask Mac Walters.

Vigil clearly didn't help us if you choose Refusal. Why should this be different, unless you're hoping they'll use the Crucible so that your hands will stay clean anyway?

Vigil? Eh? 
I'm talking about Liara's capsules giving the next cycle the info on the Reapers along with thanix cannons and the like to build a fleet of ships to go and blast them while they're still sleeping.

[translationninja]

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

Can I get some? I'll share my skittles!

[Forbry]

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

[AlexMBrennan]

It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why?

That's the question. You're assuming that it does. Of course, if assume that it fixes everything, then concluding that it fixes everything is simple. It's called begging the question.

I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic

How about "hybrid"?

it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

That's just meaningless technobabble. "New DNA" is a meaningless term.

Writing 101: You need to sell your ideas to the audience. You can't just do whatever you want.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[Forbry]

Carlthestrange wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Well Seriously, that shade of green clashes horridly with anything that any has in their closet to were.

I know. I'm a fan of blue, and with those green eyes I just wouldn't look good in ANYTHING... *Sigh*

I already have green eyes

[Parabolee77]

 Sorry I have not read the whole thread. Don't have time. But I hate Sythesis so I wanted a quick word to say why...

Morally I am against forcing genetic mutation on the entire galaxy simply because King Reaper tells me it's a good idea!

But it is how impossible it is that annoys me the most. The magic required to make it happen is at odds with all logic of the Mass Effect series so far. Mass Effect had done a great job of believable science, but Sythesis requires a ridicuous leaps of logic and space magic.

I can believe the Crucible has the power to allow Shepard to Control the Reapers, and even though I dislike Shepard becoming a Reaper I do find it a fitting Renegade ending.

And I can believe the Catalyst can also Destroy the Reapers, or more accuratly dissable them since it uses the Reapers leader to send out an off signal as it were. And since the Reapers were all near relays, the time it takes to do this is acceptable too.

But how could it remotelty be possible that it also has the power to magically transform every organic life and sythetic AI in a sythetic/organic hybrid?!? And what science logic is required that a wave of energy can spread across the entire galaxy and peform such an operation!? Is it made of faster than light nanobots? 

The Milky Way is 120,000 light years in diameter for goodness sake! It contains around 400 BILLION stars!!! And we are to believe in a matter of minutes or maybe days this magic wave changes all life in the galaxy!?!

Even if we were to accept the insanely illogical idea that this energy wave can insert sythetic parts into orgnaic beings, and organic parts into sythetic beings (which no logical person could), then for the wave to do this in any reasonible amount of time it would also be travelling well over the speed of light!

Even it it travlled 3 times the speed of light, which of course is not possible. It would still take it 40,000 years to reach every part of the galaxy! Even using the relays as shortcuts and being able to reduce the time that way it could not do it in under several thousand years at least. Remember it has to reach 400 billions stars, since it cannot know where the life is and is not.

Sythesis fails to be acceptable on grounds of logic and morals. And that is why so many reject it so aggresivly.

However the epilogue is beautiful, and I can see why people like it. I just refuse the logic involved to make it come to pass. Also wouldn't some people be upset at being forced into being a genetic mutant merged with technology? But in the epilogue everyone is just fine being a freaky glowy green mutant?

[translationninja]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

 

That's just meaningless technobabble. "New DNA" is a meaningless term.

Kinda like "warp drives" and "mass effect fields" you mean?

[Carlthestrange]

Forbry wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Well Seriously, that shade of green clashes horridly with anything that any has in their closet to were.

I know. I'm a fan of blue, and with those green eyes I just wouldn't look good in ANYTHING... *Sigh*

I already have green eyes

Not as green as Synthesis...

[DazenCobalt17]

translationninja wrote...

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

Can I get some? I'll share my skittles!

*hands you a big tub* 

[Aylyese]

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

Except that Javik has not thrown himself out an airlock.
Except that the concept of the husk is more complex than "it is the ugly thing from the spike".
Except that the reapers caused the 'need' for synthesis, which is in and of itself a negative via our definition. 

[Escocido]

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

You are seeing it the wrong way, those are people that are now not needed to produce enough for the rest. If most things could be done by machines, a lot of people would not have a job, but that's because society would not need then working to produce enough for everyone. This means that strictly speaking they would not need to work and could still receive resources. 

But we live in a crazy society were everyone MUST have a job even if it means overproducing. 

Modifié par Escocido, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[Applepie_Svk]

translationninja wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

No, but you cannot turn opinion of people with unkown space magic, for change of beliefe everyone need time.

What do you think had happened after WW2? Do you think that everyone in Europe welcome germans with open arms ?
After such a cruel experience you need a time to change not just attitude, prejudice and opinions...
short cut ... Time heal wounds - but in wordls of ME we could see that isn´t so simple like on Earth, so much time passed since Salarians used Krogans and yet there is hate - because some of the old generations (krogans) are still alive and remember what happened same as Salarians with their archives know who start claiming demands against other species...

[Erg1]

Parabolee77 wrote...

 Sorry I have not read the whole thread. Don't have time. But I hate Sythesis so I wanted a quick word to say why...

Morally I am against forcing genetic mutation on the entire galaxy simply because King Reaper tells me it's a good idea!

But it is how impossible it is that annoys me the most. The magic required to make it happen is at odds with all logic of the Mass Effect series so far. Mass Effect had done a great job of believable science, but Sythesis requires a ridicuous leaps of logic and space magic.

I can believe the Crucible has the power to allow Shepard to Control the Reapers, and even though I dislike Shepard becoming a Reaper I do find it a fitting Renegade ending.

And I can believe the Catalyst can also Destroy the Reapers, or more accuratly dissable them since it uses the Reapers leader to send out an off signal as it were. And since the Reapers were all near relays, the time it takes to do this is acceptable too.

But how could it remotelty be possible that it also has the power to magically transform every organic life and sythetic AI in a sythetic/organic hybrid?!? And what science logic is required that a wave of energy can spread across the entire galaxy and peform such an operation!? Is it made of faster than light nanobots? 

The Milky Way is 120,000 light years in diameter for goodness sake! It contains around 400 BILLION stars!!! And we are to believe in a matter of minutes or maybe days this magic wave changes all life in the galaxy!?!

Even if we were to accept the insanely illogical idea that this energy wave can insert sythetic parts into orgnaic beings, and organic parts into sythetic beings (which no logical person could), then for the wave to do this in any reasonible amount of time it would also be travelling well over the speed of light!

Even it it travlled 3 times the speed of light, which of course is not possible. It would still take it 40,000 years to reach every part of the galaxy! Even using the relays as shortcuts and being able to reduce the time that way it could not do it in under several thousand years at least. Remember it has to reach 400 billions stars, since it cannot know where the life is and is not.

Sythesis fails to be acceptable on grounds of logic and morals. And that is why so many reject it so aggresivly.

However the epilogue is beautiful, and I can see why people like it. I just refuse the logic involved to make it come to pass. Also wouldn't some people be upset at being forced into being a genetic mutant merged with technology? But in the epilogue everyone is just fine being a freaky glowy green mutant?

Moving faster than light is impossible. This kills the whole ME universe 

[Carlthestrange]

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

Can I get some? I'll share my skittles!

*hands you a big tub* 

Oddly enough I am chomping on a big bag of sour cream and onion crisps while reading this thread.

[Forbry]

translationninja wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

I already concluded that earlier. Peace is a bad, bad thing to some people here...

[Ieldra]

Carlthestrange wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

And nothing supports that they won't. You are litteraly unleashing a total unknown on the Galaxy without thought for concequences.

Its quite easy to turn that logic on itself.

No, because you say that X happens against all evidence we see and hear in the epilogue then YOU have to provide that evidence. If you have to dismiss the claim that there is a bright future post-Synthesis then you need to dismiss the whole epilogue. If you do that on no better grounds than "It's all brainwashing", then you're plainly in denial. Or a conspiracy theorist. But hey, these about here where people can't live with others having a different opinion than themselves. It *has* to be brainwashing. Yeah right.

[translationninja]

Parabolee77 wrote...

But it is how impossible it is that annoys me the most. The magic required to make it happen is at odds with all logic of the Mass Effect series so far. Mass Effect had done a great job of believable science, but Sythesis requires a ridicuous leaps of logic and space magic.

Not to be pedantic, but not really. In the ME universe things travel FTL, C is the only true constant in the entire universe, messing with it basically turns every single physical law upside down and sideways.

So frankly, in a universe where objects travel at multiples of C, insta-DNA-fusing is no less unbelievable than any other premise that is made.

[KingZayd]

Erg1 wrote...

Parabolee77 wrote...

 Sorry I have not read the whole thread. Don't have time. But I hate Sythesis so I wanted a quick word to say why...

Morally I am against forcing genetic mutation on the entire galaxy simply because King Reaper tells me it's a good idea!

But it is how impossible it is that annoys me the most. The magic required to make it happen is at odds with all logic of the Mass Effect series so far. Mass Effect had done a great job of believable science, but Sythesis requires a ridicuous leaps of logic and space magic.

I can believe the Crucible has the power to allow Shepard to Control the Reapers, and even though I dislike Shepard becoming a Reaper I do find it a fitting Renegade ending.

And I can believe the Catalyst can also Destroy the Reapers, or more accuratly dissable them since it uses the Reapers leader to send out an off signal as it were. And since the Reapers were all near relays, the time it takes to do this is acceptable too.

But how could it remotelty be possible that it also has the power to magically transform every organic life and sythetic AI in a sythetic/organic hybrid?!? And what science logic is required that a wave of energy can spread across the entire galaxy and peform such an operation!? Is it made of faster than light nanobots? 

The Milky Way is 120,000 light years in diameter for goodness sake! It contains around 400 BILLION stars!!! And we are to believe in a matter of minutes or maybe days this magic wave changes all life in the galaxy!?!

Even if we were to accept the insanely illogical idea that this energy wave can insert sythetic parts into orgnaic beings, and organic parts into sythetic beings (which no logical person could), then for the wave to do this in any reasonible amount of time it would also be travelling well over the speed of light!

Even it it travlled 3 times the speed of light, which of course is not possible. It would still take it 40,000 years to reach every part of the galaxy! Even using the relays as shortcuts and being able to reduce the time that way it could not do it in under several thousand years at least. Remember it has to reach 400 billions stars, since it cannot know where the life is and is not.

Sythesis fails to be acceptable on grounds of logic and morals. And that is why so many reject it so aggresivly.

However the epilogue is beautiful, and I can see why people like it. I just refuse the logic involved to make it come to pass. Also wouldn't some people be upset at being forced into being a genetic mutant merged with technology? But in the epilogue everyone is just fine being a freaky glowy green mutant?

Moving faster than light is impossible. This kills the whole ME universe 

Which is why they create a bubble (FTL field) within which the speed of light is increased.

[Carlthestrange]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

And nothing supports that they won't. You are litteraly unleashing a total unknown on the Galaxy without thought for concequences.

Its quite easy to turn that logic on itself.

No, because you say that X happens against all evidence we see and hear in the epilogue then YOU have to provide that evidence. If you have to dismiss the claim that there is a bright future post-Synthesis then you need to dismiss the whole epilogue. If you do that on no better grounds than "It's all brainwashing", then you're plainly in denial. Or a conspiracy theorist. But hey, these about here where people can't live with others having a different opinion than themselves. It *has* to be brainwashing. Yeah right.

"I'm not providing the evidence, YOU provide the evidence!"

That one can be fired both ways too. This is a rather pointless debate.