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[Jackums]

Aylyese wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

Except that Javik has not thrown himself out an airlock.
Except that the concept of the husk is more complex than "it is the ugly thing from the spike".
Except that the reapers caused the 'need' for synthesis, which is in and of itself a negative via our definition. 

Funny. (Assuming you're not really trying to pass that as evidence of anything)
That's nothing more than a theoretical concept in itself.
They didn't cause a need for anything. Synthesis is not the only option.

[Erg1]

KingZayd wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

Parabolee77 wrote...

 Sorry I have not read the whole thread. Don't have time. But I hate Sythesis so I wanted a quick word to say why...

Morally I am against forcing genetic mutation on the entire galaxy simply because King Reaper tells me it's a good idea!

But it is how impossible it is that annoys me the most. The magic required to make it happen is at odds with all logic of the Mass Effect series so far. Mass Effect had done a great job of believable science, but Sythesis requires a ridicuous leaps of logic and space magic.

I can believe the Crucible has the power to allow Shepard to Control the Reapers, and even though I dislike Shepard becoming a Reaper I do find it a fitting Renegade ending.

And I can believe the Catalyst can also Destroy the Reapers, or more accuratly dissable them since it uses the Reapers leader to send out an off signal as it were. And since the Reapers were all near relays, the time it takes to do this is acceptable too.

But how could it remotelty be possible that it also has the power to magically transform every organic life and sythetic AI in a sythetic/organic hybrid?!? And what science logic is required that a wave of energy can spread across the entire galaxy and peform such an operation!? Is it made of faster than light nanobots? 

The Milky Way is 120,000 light years in diameter for goodness sake! It contains around 400 BILLION stars!!! And we are to believe in a matter of minutes or maybe days this magic wave changes all life in the galaxy!?!

Even if we were to accept the insanely illogical idea that this energy wave can insert sythetic parts into orgnaic beings, and organic parts into sythetic beings (which no logical person could), then for the wave to do this in any reasonible amount of time it would also be travelling well over the speed of light!

Even it it travlled 3 times the speed of light, which of course is not possible. It would still take it 40,000 years to reach every part of the galaxy! Even using the relays as shortcuts and being able to reduce the time that way it could not do it in under several thousand years at least. Remember it has to reach 400 billions stars, since it cannot know where the life is and is not.

Sythesis fails to be acceptable on grounds of logic and morals. And that is why so many reject it so aggresivly.

However the epilogue is beautiful, and I can see why people like it. I just refuse the logic involved to make it come to pass. Also wouldn't some people be upset at being forced into being a genetic mutant merged with technology? But in the epilogue everyone is just fine being a freaky glowy green mutant?

Moving faster than light is impossible. This kills the whole ME universe 

Which is why they create a bubble (FTL field) within which the speed of light is increased.

It's still moving faster than light  So it's impossible. Noting can move faster than the normal speed of light unless you prove that Einstein was wrong.

Modifié par Erg1, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:12 .

[Dougy Fresh]

Because thats what the starbrat wants.... dont give the starbrat what he wants, thats why hes a brat.

[Aylyese]

Forbry wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

I already concluded that earlier. Peace is a bad, bad thing to some people here...

The conflict already exists. Unless Synthesis also wiped out everyone in one of the following categories.

Cerberus
Terra Nova
The Turians that hate humans
The Krogans that hate the Turians and Salarains
The Salarians and Turians that hate the Krogan.
The Asari that hate Asari who breed with other Asari.

The conflict exists in the universe already. We are not superimposing it in there. Synthesis cannot fix all that bad blood without altering the metnal state of all the parties involved. It is really that simple.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, because you say that X happens against all evidence we see and hear in the epilogue then YOU have to provide that evidence. If you have to dismiss the claim that there is a bright future post-Synthesis then you need to dismiss the whole epilogue. If you do that on no better grounds than "It's all brainwashing", then you're plainly in denial. Or a conspiracy theorist. But hey, these about here where people can't live with others having a different opinion than themselves. It *has* to be brainwashing. Yeah right.

It's not denial, it's common sense. I have yet to see ANYONE explain why a traumatised population would just be fine with Reapers stomping around helping them rebuild instead of going insane with rage and taking pot shots at them.

And please do not harp on about "revenge is so uncool, man". This is human nature. You do not forgive and forget crimes of that magnitutde no matter if the Reapers are being controlled. It just doesn't happen.

You're just upset because heavy doubt can be cast on your oh so wonderful utopian scenario.
Even though that utopia is built on an act of violation to begin with but no no, has to be perfect.

[Aylyese]

JackumsD wrote...

Aylyese wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

Except that Javik has not thrown himself out an airlock.
Except that the concept of the husk is more complex than "it is the ugly thing from the spike".
Except that the reapers caused the 'need' for synthesis, which is in and of itself a negative via our definition. 

Funny. (Assuming you're not really trying to pass that as evidence of anything)
That's nothing more than a theoretical concept in itself.
They didn't cause a need for anything. Synthesis is not the only option.

Okay? So Javik is just fine with being half synthetic in your head canon?

Okay take two? You know the Asari version of a husk is called a Banshee. Look, it is already more complex past theory.

Then synthesis is the wrong option? /thread.

[Jackums]

Aylyese wrote...

The conflict already exists. Unless Synthesis also wiped out everyone in one of the following categories.

Cerberus
Terra Nova
The Turians that hate humans
The Krogans that hate the Turians and Salarains
The Salarians and Turians that hate the Krogan.
The Asari that hate Asari who breed with other Asari.

The conflict exists in the universe already. We are not superimposing it in there. Synthesis cannot fix all that bad blood without altering the metnal state of all the parties involved. It is really that simple.

I don't recall it ever being stated that there is a total absence of conflict in the Synthesis ending.

Someone saying "there will be peace" does not translate to "there will be Utopia, void of all conflict". It's relative.

[C9316]

I detest synthesis because it removes the diversity that the galaxy had in return for the naive sentiment that doing so will ultimately bring everlasting peace to the galaxy. All this will bring is stagnation due to the 'knowledge' the Reapers have from the other races they killed just being handed to us, no real advances are made on our own merit. This sort of static community is what the Reapers have sought all along because with this there is no conflict, no chaos, just a perpetual state of now what kind of life is that? You remove what makes life worth living with synthesis, the hardships we face in life are worth it once we overcome them on our terms. Also the catalyst says that synthesis is inevitable right? So why not reach that point on our own, without forcing it upon everyone?

[Forbry]

Escocido wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

You are seeing it the wrong way, those are people that are now not needed to produce enough for the rest. If most things could be done by machines, a lot of people would not have a job, but that's because society would not need then working to produce enough for everyone. This means that strictly speaking they would not need to work and could still receive resources. 

But we live in a crazy society were everyone MUST have a job even if it means overproducing. 

Don't fool yourself. Technological advancement brings many good things to this world, but could also grow to be a real thread to humans or humanity. Maybe from an entire angle (I'm often not that good in coming up with examples): think of cloning for instance, doesn't that take away a human's individuality if you really think about it?

[Forbry]

Billyg3453 wrote...

I'm going to join this debate 24 pages too late and only read about four posts, but there is no defense for Synthesis. It is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and cannot possibly be taken seriously by anyone.

Says someone still living on a flat earth?

[Erg1]

Forbry wrote...

Escocido wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

You are seeing it the wrong way, those are people that are now not needed to produce enough for the rest. If most things could be done by machines, a lot of people would not have a job, but that's because society would not need then working to produce enough for everyone. This means that strictly speaking they would not need to work and could still receive resources. 

But we live in a crazy society were everyone MUST have a job even if it means overproducing. 

Don't fool yourself. Technological advancement brings many good things to this world, but could also grow to be a real thread to humans or humanity. Maybe from an entire angle (I'm often not that good in coming up with examples): think of cloning for instance, doesn't that take away a human's individuality if you really think about it?

Clone is still a human, same as his 'father', just created in a way different that procreation 

[Forbry]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

No, but you cannot turn opinion of people with unkown space magic, for change of beliefe everyone need time.

What do you think had happened after WW2? Do you think that everyone in Europe welcome germans with open arms ?
After such a cruel experience you need a time to change not just attitude, prejudice and opinions...
short cut ... Time heal wounds - but in wordls of ME we could see that isn´t so simple like on Earth, so much time passed since Salarians used Krogans and yet there is hate - because some of the old generations (krogans) are still alive and remember what happened same as Salarians with their archives know who start claiming demands against other species...

Ýou're right, but the scenes in the game show -without a doubt- they can deal with it. It then does not matter anymore hów they did that.

[Jackums]

Aylyese wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Aylyese wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.
Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis turns everyone into husks.
Nothing supports the notion that the Reapers will negatively impact the galaxy, post-Synthesis.

Except that Javik has not thrown himself out an airlock.
Except that the concept of the husk is more complex than "it is the ugly thing from the spike".
Except that the reapers caused the 'need' for synthesis, which is in and of itself a negative via our definition. 

Funny. (Assuming you're not really trying to pass that as evidence of anything)
That's nothing more than a theoretical concept in itself.
They didn't cause a need for anything. Synthesis is not the only option.

Okay? So Javik is just fine with being half synthetic in your head canon?

Okay take two? You know the Asari version of a husk is called a Banshee. Look, it is already more complex past theory.

Then synthesis is the wrong option? /thread.

Did we see the remainder of Javik's life post-Synthesis? No. Is the potential for change in mindset non-existent within Javik? No. Then how is this evidence of anything?

I fail to see any evidence of civilisation becoming husks in the Synthesis ending. How is any of what you're going on about right now indisputable fact of galactic civilisation becoming husks?

Then all of your anti-Synthesis arguments you're claiming as canon are nothing more then speculation. /thread

[Malditor]

Main reasons people hate Synthesis: Space magic, Immoral, Emotional
Of the reasons people don't like it the only logical one is space magic, hard to accept how the crucible can alter all things with a flash of green light. Otherwise it's just gut reactions to something they don't like and toss about sayings like "genetic rape" and other such nonsense. Saying we don't have permission to do this to everyone, when technically the only thing we have permission to do is destory the reapers which isn't even a possibility without also destroying EDI/Geth.

[Carlthestrange]

JackumsD wrote...

Then all of your anti-Synthesis arguments you're claiming as canon are nothing more then speculation. /thread

Again, a lot of the pro-synthesis arguments are just that. Nothing but speculation. This debate remains on the Philosophcal playing field, and neither side knows more than the other.

Just accept that you have differing opinions on an incredibly vague ending, and go your seperate ways. It'll make you feel a lot better.

[jsadalia]

Mainly a failure of imagination and a fear of change.

[translationninja]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, because you say that X happens against all evidence we see and hear in the epilogue then YOU have to provide that evidence. If you have to dismiss the claim that there is a bright future post-Synthesis then you need to dismiss the whole epilogue. If you do that on no better grounds than "It's all brainwashing", then you're plainly in denial. Or a conspiracy theorist. But hey, these about here where people can't live with others having a different opinion than themselves. It *has* to be brainwashing. Yeah right.

It's not denial, it's common sense. I have yet to see ANYONE explain why a traumatised population would just be fine with Reapers stomping around helping them rebuild instead of going insane with rage and taking pot shots at them.

And please do not harp on about "revenge is so uncool, man". This is human nature. You do not forgive and forget crimes of that magnitutde no matter if the Reapers are being controlled. It just doesn't happen.

You're just upset because heavy doubt can be cast on your oh so wonderful utopian scenario.
Even though that utopia is built on an act of violation to begin with but no no, has to be perfect.

Actually, I have mentioned before, I am a war veteran,  and I have seen combatants turn huggy sobby in a snap.

I do however have no trouble believing that for some the concept of understanding leading to non-hostility is a bit much to grasp

[Forbry]

Erg1 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Escocido wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

You are seeing it the wrong way, those are people that are now not needed to produce enough for the rest. If most things could be done by machines, a lot of people would not have a job, but that's because society would not need then working to produce enough for everyone. This means that strictly speaking they would not need to work and could still receive resources. 

But we live in a crazy society were everyone MUST have a job even if it means overproducing. 

Don't fool yourself. Technological advancement brings many good things to this world, but could also grow to be a real thread to humans or humanity. Maybe from an entire angle (I'm often not that good in coming up with examples): think of cloning for instance, doesn't that take away a human's individuality if you really think about it?

Clone is still a human, same as his 'father', just created in a way different that procreation 

Nope. Do not agree with that. In some sense, it takes away individuality. I'm not saying in a horrific way per se (don't know), but it sure does.
But these weren't the best examples. There are many sci-fi stories with examples that could become truth in the future and where you already see little signs of in this lifetime.

[Forbry]

Carlthestrange wrote...

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

DazenCobalt17 wrote...

I have nothing to add to this but seeing you guys go back and forth with valid points on both sides is very interesting. *sits back and enjoys popcorn*

Can I get some? I'll share my skittles!

*hands you a big tub* 

Oddly enough I am chomping on a big bag of sour cream and onion crisps while reading this thread.

*jealous*

[Gusman C. Harris]

When I learned that one of the possibilities to end the conflict was Synthesis I became very drawn to it. However, the way the writers chose to depict it streched my suspension of disbelief too thin. "Organic" DNA merged with synthetic whatever to produce hybrids, that´s just preposterous.
The idea of synthesis is fascinating, but I did not like the way the writers imagined it.

[Shadowvalker]

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

[KingZayd]

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Escocido wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Erg1 wrote...

 I have one question: what if Catalyst was right about the unevitable organic and synthetic war?
It was programmed AI, but so advanced and with so high intelligence that it's all even beyond our imagination. He could think about every possibility of every action in galaxy, but he was still artificial and he couldn't see things in ways as we see it. So, what if he was right about organic and synthetic war, but he just took wrong way to prevent it?

Quarians are normal, organic beings. Geths are typical synthetic beings. Right now, they can easily cooperate and live together. But hey, look, their technological level is equal. But even Tali said that geths are able to do same things in weeks as organic (she was talking about quarians, but it's same for every known organic) would do them in years. This means that Geths would reach higher technological levels faster than any known organic being. Some day Geths would come to an idea that is identical to many sci-fi AIs antagonists, and that idea is "Organic beings are slowing us, we must do something with them".

Looking from this perspective, I think that synthesis is overall the best ending. It prevents organic and synthetic war. Why? Because now, organic is equal to synthetic. Well... the old known term 'organic' is gone, same goes to 'synthetic'. They both morphed to create something new, I don't even know how to call this new form, because they aren't organic and they aren't synthetic. Just like Catalyst said - it's a new DNA, it consists of best advantages of organic and best advantages of synthetics.

Even now, in our time, you see some of the dangers of synthetics to humans/humanity. For example: There are people who loose their job, because machines haven taken over.

You are seeing it the wrong way, those are people that are now not needed to produce enough for the rest. If most things could be done by machines, a lot of people would not have a job, but that's because society would not need then working to produce enough for everyone. This means that strictly speaking they would not need to work and could still receive resources. 

But we live in a crazy society were everyone MUST have a job even if it means overproducing. 

Don't fool yourself. Technological advancement brings many good things to this world, but could also grow to be a real thread to humans or humanity. Maybe from an entire angle (I'm often not that good in coming up with examples): think of cloning for instance, doesn't that take away a human's individuality if you really think about it?

Clone is still a human, same as his 'father', just created in a way different that procreation 

Nope. Do not agree with that. In some sense, it takes away individuality. I'm not saying in a horrific way per se (don't know), but it sure does.
But these weren't the best examples. There are many sci-fi stories with examples that could become truth in the future and where you already see little signs of in this lifetime.

Identical twins are natural clones.

[Carlthestrange]

Forbry wrote...
*jealous*

I normally don't bother with breakfast or lunch, so it is quite a pleasureable experience.

[Jackums]

Carlthestrange wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Then all of your anti-Synthesis arguments you're claiming as canon are nothing more then speculation. /thread

Again, a lot of the pro-synthesis arguments are just that. Nothing but speculation. This debate remains on the Philosophcal playing field, and neither side knows more than the other.

Just accept that you have differing opinions on an incredibly vague ending, and go your seperate ways. It'll make you feel a lot better.

I never claimed any of the pro-Synthesis arguments weren't speculation. Please, quote me.

I'm simply defending the fact that both pro and anti Synthesis arguments are speculation.

Modifié par JackumsD, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:26 .

[memorysquid]

Aylyese wrote...

Forbry wrote...

translationninja wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Nothing supports the notion that Synthesis is indoctrination/brainwashing.

LoL - so when now will everyone love each other it isn´t brainwashing ? I guess Wreav or Wrex will now collecting flowers with some unnamed Dalatraz ...

So you believe hate, conflict and war are the only way indvidualism can be confirmed? If we don't hate and fight we are brainwashed?

Because that's what it sounds like...

I already concluded that earlier. Peace is a bad, bad thing to some people here...

The conflict already exists. Unless Synthesis also wiped out everyone in one of the following categories.

Cerberus
Terra Nova
The Turians that hate humans
The Krogans that hate the Turians and Salarains
The Salarians and Turians that hate the Krogan.
The Asari that hate Asari who breed with other Asari.

The conflict exists in the universe already. We are not superimposing it in there. Synthesis cannot fix all that bad blood without altering the metnal state of all the parties involved. It is really that simple.

It increases understanding; it doesn't fiat the end of conflict forever.  It's pretty simple to understand, if you are not completely blinded by the idea that you didn't get to blow up the Reapers and retire with your LI.