1300 réponses à ce sujet

[Forbry]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

So, it just better to kill people then?

Yes! It's the universal law of life

Interesting, following this idea anyone who gets sick should just be allowed to die instead of finding ways to cure them or prevent others from getting the same illness. We are constantly finding ways to improve ourselves and become more able to survive. However, by your philosphy we should just accept death in whatever form it comes in because it's the law of life.

Yes! When death comes - well it bloody well comes! You can fight it all you want but it comes anyway. You accept life but not death? The you should not have swum as fast as you did when you were a merly spem.

Oh come on, I'm sure you live your life in utter contradiction with anything you've just written there.

Nope. That it's actually the way I live - sorry to disappoint you.

You never have visited a doctor in your life? You've never taken medicines or other kind of treatment? You never advised (or wanted) someone else (to do) any of these things?

That is beside the point - but I don't understand what people have against life? Do you resent the seasons as well? Do you truely only want summer or winter?

For every action there is a reaction. Everything has a counterpart. The univers began and supprise - it will end at some point.

Now really, listen to yourself! That's far from beside the point! It is exactly what you pretended when you wrote what you wrote!
Where do I say I have something against life of that I resent the seasons??? I actually think I showed the opposite. I love life and therefore I want to stay alive as long as I can, if you don't mind! Just like you porbably. That doesn't make me want to deny death, if that's what you concluded (yourself)!

[Ryzaki]

Caenis wrote...

At the end of the day, every choice you make is imposing an idea onto a LARGE group of people. It's one persons choice enforced onto everyone else.

To be fair though everyone signed on for Destroy (maybe not at the price of all synthetics dying but everyone signed up with the intention of destroying the Reapers no matter the cost.) That's why they're fighting.

I'm pretty sure if Shepard had told them from the beginning he was trying to control them/appease them alot of the allies would've went WTF and did their own thing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:33 .

[RebelReya]

Caenis wrote...

At the end of the day, every choice you make is imposing an idea onto a LARGE group of people. It's one persons choice enforced onto everyone else.

Yes, but only one of those choices is what the galaxy banded together to accomplish.

[Malditor]

Caenis wrote...

Malditor wrote...
No, you keep leaving out that in control you are now the one in charge of the reapers and live forever. Unless you never step in on any conflict you will eventually have to make ANOTHER choice about which side you agree with and force the other accept defeat. This could and probably will happen repeatedly and as such you will be constantly making choice after choice of who is right and forcing all to accept it. Therefore you will be imposing your choice on all more than just the one time you do in reject/destroy/synthesis. I'm not telling you that control is wrong, I don't think any of the choices are wrong because it's up to the individual to decide what is right for them. What I'm saying is I don't feel comfortable with control because I would be put in a position to force my choice on all repeatedly anytime a conflict arose that I had to put an end to.

And you keep leaving out that Shepard doesn't HAVE to control the Reapers, and that she can ultimately give up control of the Reapers if she chooses, order them to destroy themselves, order them to go to hell, order them to rebuild and then die, free the Reapers, and rebuild herself a body where she can live the rest of her days with her love interest.

No, because then you made another CHOICE there didn't you. You CHOSE not to control the reapers etc. Which not everyone would agree with so you've now made more than one choice.

[vixvicco]

:/ It seems evil somehow. Reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek TNG (if anyone gets that reference). Like them, it seems quite crude. Especially the lack of diversity (something Shepard emphasised) and the fact that the Reapers were so keen on it (to the point where Catalyst's angry dialogue was blatantly obvious if you only managed to get Destroy and Control options if your EMS was low). Dunno, I can understand why you would choose it, but I don't favour it over Destroy. Def more than Control though.

[Jackums]

Aylyese wrote...

The implication that suddenly conflict does not exist - that there is peace in the universe - causes a question of brainwashing.

There is no such implication. I already explained the term "peace" is relative.

Aylyese wrote...

They tried to write a utopia, and this is clearly an implication of the EDI narrative, but they went about it in such an objectional way that almost anyone could poke holes in it all day. In fact, the majority of people do and synthesis is the least popular ending. 

And even Pro-Synth are all for the end of conflict utopia. I had one argue the other day that it was because we all understand each other better by just digging into eachothers minds through the great network in the sky.

Buh Bye privacy!

Another speculation, sure.. but it all stems from the same place. That Synthesis was the rainbows and unicorns ending.. and like unicorns, it is a complete fantasy.

None of this implies brainwashing. Brainwashing, husks -- etc. -- are all implied only if you take the ending in a certain way. No ultimate peace is suggested. "Peace" is, yes. It's also not an absolute term. Peace could mean no large-scale wars. The word "peace" does not equate to "absolutely no conflict". So, again, there's nothing strongly enough implied to conclude any of these brainwashing theories are canon. Both anti and pro Synthesis speculation is all valid, and neither moreso than the other. The ending implies both utopian and dystopian outcomes, though neither is more prominent than the other and depend on how you perceive it, just like with the other endings.

Modifié par JackumsD, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:37 .

[Malditor]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

So, it just better to kill people then?

Yes! It's the universal law of life

Interesting, following this idea anyone who gets sick should just be allowed to die instead of finding ways to cure them or prevent others from getting the same illness. We are constantly finding ways to improve ourselves and become more able to survive. However, by your philosphy we should just accept death in whatever form it comes in because it's the law of life.

Yes! When death comes - well it bloody well comes! You can fight it all you want but it comes anyway. You accept life but not death? The you should not have swum as fast as you did when you were a merly spem.

Oh come on, I'm sure you live your life in utter contradiction with anything you've just written there.

Nope. That it's actually the way I live - sorry to disappoint you.

You never have visited a doctor in your life? You've never taken medicines or other kind of treatment? You never advised (or wanted) someone else (to do) any of these things?

That is beside the point - but I don't understand what people have against life? Do you resent the seasons as well? Do you truely only want summer or winter?

For every action there is a reaction. Everything has a counterpart. The univers began and supprise - it will end at some point.

Actually that is exactly the point, by going to the doctor/taking medicine you are prolonging your life which is fighting against death... Exact opposite of what you stated you would do.

[Caenis]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let's say that a scientist creates a virus that rewrites the genetic code of all humanity, and in the process cures all known diseases, as well as eliminating racism, sexism, hunger, obesity and intellectual inequality. Sounds good, right? Happiness for everyone!! Now we can survive on very little food if we have to, or we can eat as much as we want and never get fat, thanks to our improved digestive system. Instead of the multiplicity of ethnicities we once were, all of us now have a medium brown skin town and black hair, with brown eyes, all other variations have been eradicated from the genome. And like the asari, we're all female now, all new children that will be born will be female, and will reproduce through parthenogenesis. Aging has been eradicated as well, we remain youthful and pretty well into our senior years, and our lifespans have been doubled. Also, the human sex drive is gone, it was problematic, so it was eliminated. We've been upgraded! No, you weren't asked if you wanted to be upgraded, is that a problem?

THAT'S Synthesis. Whatever rosy fantasy there is of EDI becoming a real girl (she was already a RealDoll) and everyone living together in perfect harmony like some 1970s Coca-Cola commercial, it doesn't change the fact that all life has been irrevocably altered on a very basic level, without consultation or consent, by ONE person, at the urging of a murderous AI who could be telling Shepard all kinds of lies (and whose explanations are problematic at best).

Sounds like Hell.

But yes +1

Yes because the idea of repeating murder, war, and genocide time and time again because of one Meredith's choice thought it was the only option, sounds SO much better...

[Caenis]

Ryzaki wrote...

Caenis wrote...

At the end of the day, every choice you make is imposing an idea onto a LARGE group of people. It's one persons choice enforced onto everyone else.

To be fair though everyone signed on for Destroy (maybe not at the price of all synthetics dying but everyone signed up with the intention of destroying the Reapers no matter the cost.) That's why they're fighting.

I'm pretty sure if Shepard had told them from the beginning he was trying to control them/appease them alot of the allies would've went WTF and did their own thing.

I did not sign up to destroy the reapers in exchange for ALL Synthetics dying. No way.

[Caenis]

RebelReya wrote...

Caenis wrote...

At the end of the day, every choice you make is imposing an idea onto a LARGE group of people. It's one persons choice enforced onto everyone else.

Yes, but only one of those choices is what the galaxy banded together to accomplish.

Then they built A.I's the Catalyst was created again, and someone (who probably imposed a lot of choices on the people before them) had to make the decision to keep on letting senseless death continue on and on in the name of freedom and choice.

[Ryzaki]

Caenis wrote...
Yes because the idea of repeating murder, war, and genocide time and time again because of one Meredith's choice thought it was the only option, sounds SO much better...

Uh totally different worlds and thus my characters have totally different idealogies and personalities. Deal with it.

Not to mention the Reapers are far dangerous than the mages could even dream of being.

And if the cycle repeats it's because they choose to let it repeat. You're not forced to continue a cycle. You can break free of it. It takes effort but yes it's possible. People do it everyday.

There's no reason to genetically violate every single living being in the galaxy to stop a cycle that isn't guaranteeded to end horribly. Organics have war constantly. We haven't managed to wipe ourselves out completely yet.

Caenis wrote...
I did not sign up to destroy the reapers in exchange for ALL Synthetics dying. No way.

Maybe your Shep didn't but many (if not most) races signed on to destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. Even at the costs of their lives. (Hi there allied Geth and EDI).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[Caenis]

Malditor wrote...

Caenis wrote...

Malditor wrote...
No, you keep leaving out that in control you are now the one in charge of the reapers and live forever. Unless you never step in on any conflict you will eventually have to make ANOTHER choice about which side you agree with and force the other accept defeat. This could and probably will happen repeatedly and as such you will be constantly making choice after choice of who is right and forcing all to accept it. Therefore you will be imposing your choice on all more than just the one time you do in reject/destroy/synthesis. I'm not telling you that control is wrong, I don't think any of the choices are wrong because it's up to the individual to decide what is right for them. What I'm saying is I don't feel comfortable with control because I would be put in a position to force my choice on all repeatedly anytime a conflict arose that I had to put an end to.

And you keep leaving out that Shepard doesn't HAVE to control the Reapers, and that she can ultimately give up control of the Reapers if she chooses, order them to destroy themselves, order them to go to hell, order them to rebuild and then die, free the Reapers, and rebuild herself a body where she can live the rest of her days with her love interest.

No, because then you made another CHOICE there didn't you. You CHOSE not to control the reapers etc. Which not everyone would agree with so you've now made more than one choice.

Um...the whole point is you MAKE a CHOICE. No one is arguing that you DONT make a choice, the whole point is you're in the room with a damned Catalyst who puts the fate of humanity in your HANDS. And asks you to CHOOSE. So you're argument is that I made a CHOICE to Control or use Synthesis and then made another CHOICE to do, X, Y and Z, but in Destroy I make a CHOICE, what...once? CHOICES still have to be made at the end of the Destroy maybe not from dead shepard, but it most certainly won't be the majority, it'll be a small group of people making oh what's that another CHOICE.

[Fawx9]

Caenis wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Caenis wrote...

At the end of the day, every choice you make is imposing an idea onto a LARGE group of people. It's one persons choice enforced onto everyone else.

To be fair though everyone signed on for Destroy (maybe not at the price of all synthetics dying but everyone signed up with the intention of destroying the Reapers no matter the cost.) That's why they're fighting.

I'm pretty sure if Shepard had told them from the beginning he was trying to control them/appease them alot of the allies would've went WTF and did their own thing.

I did not sign up to destroy the reapers in exchange for ALL Synthetics dying. No way.

So you wouldn't have sacrificed Earth if it meant destorying the Reapers/ Same thing, and I bet if it came down to it, most would still follow through with Destroy. 

It was an all or nothing fight, thats what was signed up for when the fleets agreed to fight the good fight. There was nothing in there about inviting Husks and Banshees over to a BBQ next weekend.

[Forbry]

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

So, it just better to kill people then?

Yes! It's the universal law of life

Interesting, following this idea anyone who gets sick should just be allowed to die instead of finding ways to cure them or prevent others from getting the same illness. We are constantly finding ways to improve ourselves and become more able to survive. However, by your philosphy we should just accept death in whatever form it comes in because it's the law of life.

Yes! When death comes - well it bloody well comes! You can fight it all you want but it comes anyway. You accept life but not death? The you should not have swum as fast as you did when you were a merly spem.

Oh come on, I'm sure you live your life in utter contradiction with anything you've just written there.

Nope. That it's actually the way I live - sorry to disappoint you.

You never have visited a doctor in your life? You've never taken medicines or other kind of treatment? You never advised (or wanted) someone else (to do) any of these things?

That is beside the point - but I don't understand what people have against life? Do you resent the seasons as well? Do you truely only want summer or winter?

For every action there is a reaction. Everything has a counterpart. The univers began and supprise - it will end at some point.

Actually that is exactly the point, by going to the doctor/taking medicine you are prolonging your life which is fighting against death... Exact opposite of what you stated you would do.

Yes, I even thought it was funny... such a major contradiction (which we already assumed ).

But I'm out. Got other things to do. Interesting debate it was. Thanks everyone.

[Shadowvalker]

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

So, it just better to kill people then?

Yes! It's the universal law of life

Interesting, following this idea anyone who gets sick should just be allowed to die instead of finding ways to cure them or prevent others from getting the same illness. We are constantly finding ways to improve ourselves and become more able to survive. However, by your philosphy we should just accept death in whatever form it comes in because it's the law of life.

Yes! When death comes - well it bloody well comes! You can fight it all you want but it comes anyway. You accept life but not death? The you should not have swum as fast as you did when you were a merly spem.

Oh come on, I'm sure you live your life in utter contradiction with anything you've just written there.

Nope. That it's actually the way I live - sorry to disappoint you.

You never have visited a doctor in your life? You've never taken medicines or other kind of treatment? You never advised (or wanted) someone else (to do) any of these things?

That is beside the point - but I don't understand what people have against life? Do you resent the seasons as well? Do you truely only want summer or winter?

For every action there is a reaction. Everything has a counterpart. The univers began and supprise - it will end at some point.

Now really, listen to yourself! That's far from beside the point! It is exactly what you pretended when you wrote what you wrote!
Where do I say I have something against life of that I resent the seasons??? I actually think I showed the opposite. I love life and therefore I want to stay alive as long as I can, if you don't mind! Just like you porbably. That doesn't make me want to deny death, if that's what you concluded (yourself)!

I'm sorry to say it doesn't seem to me that you understand my point. I accept life - I accept death. Everything has a beginning and also an end. 

Evolution is a constant battle - whitout it things can't not evole. I as an organic will eventually die! It is a fact. I began and I must end. There is no magic involved.

This does NOT mean I hate my life in anyway - I make the most of it - you could say I comply to the basic rule of the univers by getting - I read, learn, laugh, cry etc..
I do NOT stand on a trainstation waiting for the right train to come and then throw my self in front of it - I have no such desire. I am happy about living - but I ACCEPT that death is a part of life.

[Caenis]

Ryzaki wrote...

Caenis wrote...
Yes because the idea of repeating murder, war, and genocide time and time again because of one Meredith's choice thought it was the only option, sounds SO much better...

Uh totally different worlds and thus my characters have totally different idealogies and personalities. Deal with it.

Not to mention the Reapers are far dangerous than the mages could even dream of being.

Caenis wrote...
I did not sign up to destroy the reapers in exchange for ALL Synthetics dying. No way.

Maybe your Shep didn't but many (if not most) races signed on to destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. Even at the costs of their lives. (Hi there allied Geth and EDI).

Ok...so then why are you people f*** getting angry that in our choice we achieved something everyone was all happy with...and telling us our choice was worse than your choice because of what happened in YOUR HEADCANON?

[RebelReya]

Caenis wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Let's say that a scientist creates a virus that rewrites the genetic code of all humanity, and in the process cures all known diseases, as well as eliminating racism, sexism, hunger, obesity and intellectual inequality. Sounds good, right? Happiness for everyone!! Now we can survive on very little food if we have to, or we can eat as much as we want and never get fat, thanks to our improved digestive system. Instead of the multiplicity of ethnicities we once were, all of us now have a medium brown skin town and black hair, with brown eyes, all other variations have been eradicated from the genome. And like the asari, we're all female now, all new children that will be born will be female, and will reproduce through parthenogenesis. Aging has been eradicated as well, we remain youthful and pretty well into our senior years, and our lifespans have been doubled. Also, the human sex drive is gone, it was problematic, so it was eliminated. We've been upgraded! No, you weren't asked if you wanted to be upgraded, is that a problem?

THAT'S Synthesis. Whatever rosy fantasy there is of EDI becoming a real girl (she was already a RealDoll) and everyone living together in perfect harmony like some 1970s Coca-Cola commercial, it doesn't change the fact that all life has been irrevocably altered on a very basic level, without consultation or consent, by ONE person, at the urging of a murderous AI who could be telling Shepard all kinds of lies (and whose explanations are problematic at best).

Sounds like Hell.

But yes +1

Yes because the idea of repeating murder, war, and genocide time and time again because of one Meredith's choice thought it was the only option, sounds SO much better...

War, and murder, conflict and competition are the nature of life. If Controling a reapers is a power we haven't earned, I don't think we've got a say in remaking the nature of life, and the choas that it is incalculably capible of adapting too, just to fit our idea of utopia.

[Malditor]

Caenis wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Caenis wrote...

Malditor wrote...
No, you keep leaving out that in control you are now the one in charge of the reapers and live forever. Unless you never step in on any conflict you will eventually have to make ANOTHER choice about which side you agree with and force the other accept defeat. This could and probably will happen repeatedly and as such you will be constantly making choice after choice of who is right and forcing all to accept it. Therefore you will be imposing your choice on all more than just the one time you do in reject/destroy/synthesis. I'm not telling you that control is wrong, I don't think any of the choices are wrong because it's up to the individual to decide what is right for them. What I'm saying is I don't feel comfortable with control because I would be put in a position to force my choice on all repeatedly anytime a conflict arose that I had to put an end to.

And you keep leaving out that Shepard doesn't HAVE to control the Reapers, and that she can ultimately give up control of the Reapers if she chooses, order them to destroy themselves, order them to go to hell, order them to rebuild and then die, free the Reapers, and rebuild herself a body where she can live the rest of her days with her love interest.

No, because then you made another CHOICE there didn't you. You CHOSE not to control the reapers etc. Which not everyone would agree with so you've now made more than one choice.

Um...the whole point is you MAKE a CHOICE. No one is arguing that you DONT make a choice, the whole point is you're in the room with a damned Catalyst who puts the fate of humanity in your HANDS. And asks you to CHOOSE. So you're argument is that I made a CHOICE to Control or use Synthesis and then made another CHOICE to do, X, Y and Z, but in Destroy I make a CHOICE, what...once? CHOICES still have to be made at the end of the Destroy maybe not from dead shepard, but it most certainly won't be the majority, it'll be a small group of people making oh what's that another CHOICE.

My point is only Control forces you to make multiple choices that affect everyone.

[Ryzaki]

Caenis wrote...

Ok...so then why are you people f*** getting angry that in our choice we achieved something everyone was all happy with...and telling us our choice was worse than your choice because of what happened in YOUR HEADCANON?

Because you're violating all galatic life and  appeasing their enemies that slaughtered friends and family by the truckload. 

It's the ultimate insult to everyone who fought and died so Shep could make that decision.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:50 .

[Shadowvalker]

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Why I don't fancy synthesis:

Because it is not natures own evolution.

So, it just better to kill people then?

Yes! It's the universal law of life

Interesting, following this idea anyone who gets sick should just be allowed to die instead of finding ways to cure them or prevent others from getting the same illness. We are constantly finding ways to improve ourselves and become more able to survive. However, by your philosphy we should just accept death in whatever form it comes in because it's the law of life.

Yes! When death comes - well it bloody well comes! You can fight it all you want but it comes anyway. You accept life but not death? The you should not have swum as fast as you did when you were a merly spem.

Oh come on, I'm sure you live your life in utter contradiction with anything you've just written there.

Nope. That it's actually the way I live - sorry to disappoint you.

You never have visited a doctor in your life? You've never taken medicines or other kind of treatment? You never advised (or wanted) someone else (to do) any of these things?

That is beside the point - but I don't understand what people have against life? Do you resent the seasons as well? Do you truely only want summer or winter?

For every action there is a reaction. Everything has a counterpart. The univers began and supprise - it will end at some point.

Actually that is exactly the point, by going to the doctor/taking medicine you are prolonging your life which is fighting against death... Exact opposite of what you stated you would do.

Then the next claim you make should be that eating is to prolong life?

[RebelReya]

Ryzaki wrote...

Caenis wrote...

Ok...so then why are you people f*** getting angry that in our choice we achieved something everyone was all happy with...and telling us our choice was worse than your choice because of what happened in YOUR HEADCANON?

Because you're violating all galatic life and  appeasing their enemies that slaughtered friends and family by the truckload.

It's the ultimate insult to everyone who fought and died so Shep could make that decision.

THIS!

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Caenis]

Ryzaki wrote...

Caenis wrote...

Ok...so then why are you people f*** getting angry that in our choice we achieved something everyone was all happy with...and telling us our choice was worse than your choice because of what happened in YOUR HEADCANON?

Because you're violating all galatic life and  appeasing their enemies that slaughtered friends and family by the truckload. 

It's the ultimate insult to everyone who fought and died so Shep could make that decision. Far more than Reject could ever be.

YES but that's in YOUR HEAD. Apparantly Not everyone agrees that's a violation...SO deal with it.

[CHALET]

You're turning everybody into what are essentially perfect Husks. "We are the harbringers of your perfection" and all that.

[richard_rider]

Forbry wrote...

Yes, I even thought it was funny... such a major contradiction (which we already assumed ).

But I'm out. Got other things to do. Interesting debate it was. Thanks everyone.

I believe what our good friend is trying to state, is that no matter how hard you fight it, it will end, it is inveitable, that's all, not that he wishes to die, or that he doesn't want to be healthy,  but simply that is irrefutable fact.

Myself, I know, I'm going to die, I know my parents are going to die, my wife, my brother, and pretty much everyone else. Not that I want to die, or that I want my loved ones to die, I simply know it as fact, and I accept its inevitability. Do I wish my loved ones and I could live long, long, long, healthy lives, yes, but I know we live in the real world.