1300 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sometimes you have no choice. You'd understand that if you've heard the stories from this ex-SS soldier that I knew (he's death now, may he rest in peace).

Or what, you die?

So you either live a coward or die principled in that situation.

[RadicalDisconnect]

wantedman dan wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

I'm not taking sides here, but while "following orders" is often a pathetic excuse, it's not entirely unfounded either. Observe the results of the Milgram Experiment.

The Milgram experiment is testament to the willingness of the human psyche to commit atrocities simply because they were told to, for those of you who don't know.

While it's not unfounded, it's still not an excuse. You're still committing atrocities.

The question, then, is how much control the Catalyst has over the reapers for them to submit to its will.

We're getting way off topic here.

[Newnation]

I didn't pick Synthesis because I just couldn't. From ME to the end of ME 3, the reapers are the definite bad guys you were supposed to have nightmares about. Now all of sudden they aren't quite the boogeymen they were portrayed as being since the start of the trilogy. To me, the only redeeming quality of Synthesis is that Edi gets to actually experience what is to be alive. My favorite ending is destroy but imo they all could have been handled a lot better, EC included.

[translationninja]

Random Geth wrote...

translationninja wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to hate synthesis will simply shut their mind to the realization that genocide is more unacceptable than forced change.

No rational argument in the world will make a change there.

What me changed against my will? Nuh uh!!! Go kill a trillion other sentient beings instead!!!!

Your ignorance is staggering.  I can't tell if you're trolling or really just don't understand in any way the implications of such a forced change on such a scale.

Your ignorance is staggering, I can't tell if you're trolling or really just don't in any way the implications of accepting the wiping out of an entire sentient species

[AtreiyaN7]

I think it's because the vast majority of people here seem to take their position based solely on the Borg, rather than the human-like robots of Isaac Asimov. They just have some sort of knee-jerk response to the idea of merging with machines because they see one example that was specifically meant to horrify people and are unwilling to even consider any of the other more optimistic possibilities like Asimov did. I land on the Asimov side of things when it comes to robots and AIs. Even though I love Star Trek, I find Asimov's vision of man and machine heading towards singularity to be a more optimistic possibility. Just look at the advances in prosthetics we have these days.

Per the Asimov episode of Prophets of Science Fiction, they're finally starting to be able to allow the wearer of a limb to "feel" in a rudimentary sense. We're not afraid of advancing technology for those who have lost limbs or incorporating machinery as part of ourselves if it proves beneficial, so when I see a post like the one up above from M25105, I think to myself, wow, a lot of people here have incredibly superficial responses/reactions to complex situations and are apparently ill-equipped to consider to major philosophical issues with much more than a simplistic black and white response to every situation.

I find such responses childish, short-sighted and narrow-minded. I should also point out that after World War II we did forgive our former enemies and eventually became allies and friends - even after all the terrible atrocities that they were responsible for. You don't ever forget, but forgiveness is possible. Since I'm actually very much interested in the WW II period of history and have watched numerous documentaries, I've seen former enemies embrace and forgive each other decades after the war. They reconciled and no longer hated each other.

The fact that it was our fellow organics who committed genocide during WWII doesn't make things any different. although I would argue that the situations aren't quite the same and that the Reapers were not committing genocide because their intent was to preserve harvested races and ascend them. Their actions were not done for the sake of killing due to racial or religious prejudice and they acted without hate, which is more than you can say about humans. I don't love it or like it and was horrified by the scale of death, but at least I can recognize the difference in the Catalyst's motivations and make my decisions based on that.

[translationninja]

translationninja wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

translationninja wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to hate synthesis will simply shut their mind to the realization that genocide is more unacceptable than forced change.

No rational argument in the world will make a change there.

What me changed against my will? Nuh uh!!! Go kill a trillion other sentient beings instead!!!!

Your ignorance is staggering.  I can't tell if you're trolling or really just don't understand in any way the implications of such a forced change on such a scale.

Your ignorance is staggering, I can't tell if you're trolling or really just don't in any way understand the implications of accepting the wiping out of an entire sentient species at a whim that something might not be okay

[Ridwan]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Does anyone even bother reading what I post?

M25105:

The line of reasoning I'm seeing from you is that Reapers can't be forgiven because they're machines who are designed to perform monstrous acts. This may be a valid point. However, what do you believe is the "forgiveness threshold?" Does Shepard's actions during Arrival pass that threshold?

What I'm seeing on BSN is a whole lot of sweeping generalizations, false analogies, binary logic, and association fallacies/Godwin's law. This is coming from people in all camps, and it's getting rather irritating. Admittedly, even I'm guilty of these fallacies, but the extent of the hostilities on this forum is rather mindbloggling. I've only been here for 4 days, and the environment is just so hostile.

I have 0 zero clue about Arrival as I never played the DLC. From my understanding Shepard had to blow up a relay to prevent the Reapers from coming in much earlier, is that right?

Also if you can fill me on the basics (just a short run down) of the arrival DLC and if there was any options then I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.

Modifié par M25105, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:32 .

[Welsh Inferno]

ghost9191 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to hate synthesis will simply shut their mind to the realization that genocide is more unacceptable than forced change.

No rational argument in the world will make a change there.

What me changed against my will? Nuh uh!!! Go kill a trillion other sentient beings instead!!!!

 a billion. and google genocide,    synthesis destroy what the races once was in order to make a new one. that right there is genocide

I love what this thread has turned into.

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I love how doggedly people refuse to see the ethical problems with Synthesis, just because "it turned out so nice for everyone!" All life is irreversibly engineered to become something else entirely, and that's okay, because look how HAPPY everyone is! Reapers and krogan, dancing on the beach, collecting seashells, braiding each others' hair. GAG.

Seriously, it's absurd, and you should all take a good long look at yourselves. The end really does justify the means for you, I guess. PLEASE never pursue a position of any kind of leadership in society. Thanks.

I'm willing to accept Control as a viable alternative, though it's a hell of a burden to place on yourself, ensuring that you never get out of hand in the same way the previous Catalyst did.

If destroy is genocide of one "species" then Synthesis is a mass
genocide of the entire galaxy. It's killing who we are and changing us
to something we're not.

This change isn't death.

It IS death, of our genetic code. What we were has been co-opted and used as raw material for something else, something Synthesized. What we are after Synthesis isn't ****** sapiens, it's ****** sapiens synthesiensis. ****** sapiens is now extinct. 

Worthy of note, but no individuals are dead. Altered, but not dead. There's a continuance of cognitive function, and that's what matters.

No it isn't. Your children won't be human. You're not human anymore. Humanity is extinct. That's not a problem? THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.

[RadicalDisconnect]

M25105 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Does anyone even bother reading what I post?

M25105:

The line of reasoning I'm seeing from you is that Reapers can't be forgiven because they're machines who are designed to perform monstrous acts. This may be a valid point. However, what do you believe is the "forgiveness threshold?" Does Shepard's actions during Arrival pass that threshold?

What I'm seeing on BSN is a whole lot of sweeping generalizations, false analogies, binary logic, and association fallacies/Godwin's law. This is coming from people in all camps, and it's getting rather irritating. Admittedly, even I'm guilty of these fallacies, but the extent of the hostilities on this forum is rather mindbloggling. I've only been here for 4 days, and the environment is just so hostile.

I have 0 zero clue about Arrival as I never played the DLC. From my understanding Shepard had to blow up a relay to prevent the Reapers from coming in much earlier, is that right?

Also if you can fill me on the basics (short and basic) about the arrival DLC and if there was any options then I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.

A relay was blown up that would've slaughtered 300,000 batarians, but it also delayed the arrival of the reapers by a few months. As a renegade, you can use the comm channel to radio the Normandy immediately. As a paragon, you will attempt to warn the batarians about what's going to happen, but that did not work.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[The Heretic of Time]

wantedman dan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

What are you laughing at? I speak the truth.

I laugh at how you justify committing genocide by "They're just following orders."

I laugh at how incredibly stupid that justification is.

My god, you're not the smartest person, I know, but how can you not see that I'm NOT justifying genocide? I'm only stating the fact that both the SS soldiers and the reapers were merely following orders. I never said that because of that their acts are justified. They aren't. Most SS soldiers suffered severe punishment for their war crimes and all Nazi generals and political leaders that were captured all suffered the death penalty.

However, simlpe foot soldiers, like the person I knew, who only followed orders, could be forgiven, depending on the severity of their crimes. The guy I knew joined the army again after WWII, this time to aid the Americans in Korea. He saw this as a way to redeem himself. Upon his return in 1953, the government officially declared him redeemed for his service in the SS army during WW2.

If an ex German SS soldier can redeem himself, than so can the Reapers in my opinion.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:34 .

[wantedman dan]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The question, then, is how much control the Catalyst has over the reapers for them to submit to its will.

We're getting way off topic here.

If they're all as Sovereign stated, they're pretty damn sapient.

[Welsh Inferno]

M25105 wrote...

Only when they become retarded.

If you say so buddy. 

[Ryzaki]

wantedman dan wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The question, then, is how much control the Catalyst has over the reapers for them to submit to its will.

We're getting way off topic here.

If they're all as Sovereign stated, they're pretty damn sapient.

You have to wonder if they realize they have a puppet master. If so...why are they so damn arrogant? If not...why don't some resist Shepard in control? 

[translationninja]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to hate synthesis will simply shut their mind to the realization that genocide is more unacceptable than forced change.

No rational argument in the world will make a change there.

What me changed against my will? Nuh uh!!! Go kill a trillion other sentient beings instead!!!!

 a billion. and google genocide,    synthesis destroy what the races once was in order to make a new one. that right there is genocide

I love what this thread has turned into.

mmmmkay, I guess for ghost having a different skin color and more knowledge in your head equals being dead... can't even argue with that it's so out there...

[ghost9191]

i pick in the moment, not by metagaming. my shepard would not risk control or synthesis. too many unknowns, destroy is the only one that the catalyst does a good job explaining. geth are acceptable casualties and destroy achieves the goal the whole alliance set out to do.

[wantedman dan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

What are you laughing at? I speak the truth.

I laugh at how you justify committing genocide by "They're just following orders."

I laugh at how incredibly stupid that justification is.

My god, you're not the smartest person, I know, but how can you not see that I'm NOT justifying genocide?

Make that five. I'm keeping count.

I'm only stating the fact that both the SS soldiers and the reapers were merely following orders. I never said that because of that their acts are justified. They aren't. Most SS soldiers suffered severe punishment for their war crimes and all Nazi generals and political leaders that were captured all suffered the death penalty.

However, simlpe foot soldiers, like the person I knew, who only followed orders, could be forgiven, depending on the severity of their crimes. The guy I knew joined the army again after WWII, this time to aid the Americans in Korea. He saw this as a way to redeem himself.

If an ex German SS soldier can redeem himself, than so can the Reapers in my opinion. 

This is not an apples/oranges comparison you're making... Are you seriously equating the supposed petty crimes you're attempting to tell us this German SS soldier is only guilty of with genocide on a galactic scale over the course of a billion years?

Because that would be funnier.

In a sad sort of way.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

wantedman dan wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The question, then, is how much control the Catalyst has over the reapers for them to submit to its will.

We're getting way off topic here.

If they're all as Sovereign stated, they're pretty damn sapient.

While I agree with you there, ME3 rectonned so many things that we don't know if the reapers themselves are lead to believe that, or are entirely voluntary in their systematic slaughter. How would you distinguish an indoctrinated individual from a free one?

I'm not trying to troll. Just playing the devil's advocate.

[Giggles_Manically]

Heh.

Good to see that Xili is still nuttier than squirrel turds.

[The Heretic of Time]

wantedman dan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Sometimes you have no choice. You'd understand that if you've heard the stories from this ex-SS soldier that I knew (he's death now, may he rest in peace).

Or what, you die?

So you either live a coward or die principled in that situation.

Or you live to redeem yourself in the future when you see the chance to pay for what you did during the war, which is exactly what the person I knew did.

[ghost9191]

translationninja wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

translationninja wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to hate synthesis will simply shut their mind to the realization that genocide is more unacceptable than forced change.

No rational argument in the world will make a change there.

What me changed against my will? Nuh uh!!! Go kill a trillion other sentient beings instead!!!!

 a billion. and google genocide,    synthesis destroy what the races once was in order to make a new one. that right there is genocide

I love what this thread has turned into.

mmmmkay, I guess for ghost having a different skin color and more knowledge in your head equals being dead... can't even argue with that it's so out there...

rewriting their dna changes what they were, the species like say asari is no more. they may look it but they are changed, that is destroying a ethnic or racial group which is genocide.   turning everyone into the same thing by altering their dna means they are no longer what they use to be

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Not to mention those goddamn Reaper PROCESSING SHIPS.

Ugh. Just...ugh. *shivers*

And yes Reaper's CONTROLLED those things. ****ers.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Xilizhra]

No it isn't. Your children won't be human. You're not human anymore. Humanity is extinct. That's not a problem? THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.

There are many things wrong with me, but I think this is just me being logical. No individuals are dying, and humanity's nature can change into something better. Humans are grossly suboptimal, as are all other forms of sapient life in ME.
(Also, my Shepard was never going to have human children anyway.)

[Welsh Inferno]

Siansonea II wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I love how doggedly people refuse to see the ethical problems with Synthesis, just because "it turned out so nice for everyone!" All life is irreversibly engineered to become something else entirely, and that's okay, because look how HAPPY everyone is! Reapers and krogan, dancing on the beach, collecting seashells, braiding each others' hair. GAG.

Seriously, it's absurd, and you should all take a good long look at yourselves. The end really does justify the means for you, I guess. PLEASE never pursue a position of any kind of leadership in society. Thanks.

I'm willing to accept Control as a viable alternative, though it's a hell of a burden to place on yourself, ensuring that you never get out of hand in the same way the previous Catalyst did.

If destroy is genocide of one "species" then Synthesis is a mass
genocide of the entire galaxy. It's killing who we are and changing us
to something we're not.

This change isn't death.

It IS death, of our genetic code. What we were has been co-opted and used as raw material for something else, something Synthesized. What we are after Synthesis isn't ****** sapiens, it's ****** sapiens synthesiensis. ****** sapiens is now extinct. 

Worthy of note, but no individuals are dead. Altered, but not dead. There's a continuance of cognitive function, and that's what matters.

No it isn't. Your children won't be human. You're not human anymore. Humanity is extinct. That's not a problem? THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.

In a billion years humanity won't exist anyway. Our entire galaxy is but a spec of dust in comparison to the entire universe. Who else would give a damn. I'd rather make the most of what we can, as soon as we can.

Besides that point, we are still human. Humans enhanced by synthetic tech. Woopdy doo.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[wantedman dan]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The question, then, is how much control the Catalyst has over the reapers for them to submit to its will.

We're getting way off topic here.

If they're all as Sovereign stated, they're pretty damn sapient.

While I agree with you there, ME3 rectonned so many things that we don't know if the reapers themselves are lead to believe that, or are entirely voluntary in their systematic slaughter. How would you distinguish an indoctrinated individual from a free one?

I agree about ME3. It is a literary disaster. I tend to believe the "ascension" process--and I use that term loosely and with disgust--creates the belief within the Reaper that what they're doing is, in fact, correct.

I'm not trying to troll. Just playing the devil's advocate.

Think nothing of it. I enjoy a good philosophical debate.