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Why is everyone so against Synthesis?


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#1201
mopotter

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DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.

#1202
Xandurpein

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darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the synthesis ending turns every being into peaceful bliss...

whats the problem?
i didnt even cure the genophage and the krogans still had a baby....
perfection


The Lotus eaters where happy too. Doesn't mean I want to be one...

(For those philistines who don't know their Homer, the Lotus eaters where a group encountered by Odysseus. They lived off a narcotic Lotus flower. All they did all day was to sit and chew Lotus petals and be deliriously happy. Odesseus had to use force to save some of his crew who joined them.)

Modifié par Xandurpein, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:23 .


#1203
DKJaigen

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mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis

#1204
Fawx9

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DKJaigen wrote...

mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis


Says who?

Maybe I'm an crazed scientist and want to see how much this new knoweldge can propel my expermiments.

I still cause conflict, and if my experiments succeed I can still cause war. I don't care if I understand someone, I just need their new DNA to help build my cyborg laser shooting dinosaurs.

Modifié par Fawx9, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:47 .


#1205
DKJaigen

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Xandurpein wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the synthesis ending turns every being into peaceful bliss...

whats the problem?
i didnt even cure the genophage and the krogans still had a baby....
perfection


The Lotus eaters where happy too. Doesn't mean I want to be one...

(For those philistines who don't know their Homer, the Lotus eaters where a group encountered by Odysseus. They lived off a narcotic Lotus flower. All they did all day was to sit and chew Lotus petals and be deliriously happy. Odesseus had to use force to save some of his crew who joined them.)


are you saying that eudaimonia and drug abuse are the same thing :?

#1206
DKJaigen

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Fawx9 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis


Says who?

Maybe I'm an crazed scientist and want to see how much this new knoweldge can propel my expermiments.

I still cause conflict, and if my experiments succeed I can still cause war. I don't care if I understand someone, I just need their new DNA to help build my cyborg laser shooting dinosaurs.


Because all mental defects will be noted and corrected. Your argument is theirfore irrelevant.

#1207
LordMarrick

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My personal reasons for not liking Synthesis is, That it goes against Diversity amoung the races of the universe, Its a playing god choice and I hate those, and it would Cause many people to lose there minds is realising that they are no longer full organic.

#1208
nitefyre410

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Fawx9 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis


Says who?

Maybe I'm an crazed scientist and want to see how much this new knoweldge can propel my expermiments.

I still cause conflict, and if my experiments succeed I can still cause war. I don't care if I understand someone, I just need their new DNA to help build my cyborg laser shooting dinosaurs.

  

GO MY ARMY OF ROBO SCORPIONS STING THEM  WITH SCIENCE IN THE NAME OF DR.MOBIUS...

oh sorry wrong game.  :P

Modifié par nitefyre410, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:00 .


#1209
twinsfun

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Destroy is, so my shep will live and the reapers will die

#1210
Argable

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DKJaigen wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis


Says who?

Maybe I'm an crazed scientist and want to see how much this new knoweldge can propel my expermiments.

I still cause conflict, and if my experiments succeed I can still cause war. I don't care if I understand someone, I just need their new DNA to help build my cyborg laser shooting dinosaurs.


Because all mental defects will be noted and corrected. Your argument is theirfore irrelevant.


And what exactly determines what is a mental defect, and what is a personality trait? People fall on a huge scale of extraversion-introversion, different levels of neroticism, different levels of openness to new experience. There are outliers way out in the fringes, but they aren't mentally unsound. All of those are part of the big five personality traits, not mental illness or defect. This could start getting offensive as hell if you're claiming that there's a standard of mental function that all individuals must conform to, because humans alone have never done that.

They discovered a way to level out most of those differences already, it involves an ice-pick, a hammer, and your frontal lobe. You can't "correct" most of those differences without completely destroying an individual.

Edit: Take that scientist for example, he doesn't care about other people's views of him, he's singularly dedicated to a personal goal, and he's uncornerned with the ramifications of his work. That's not insantiy, that's...wow, that's a whole hell of a lot of people.

Modifié par Argable, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .


#1211
Fawx9

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DKJaigen wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

mopotter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Yep that all wars , chaos and misery disappears because we can finally understand each other is a bad thing according to the naysayers.


Unless everyone in the galexy is mindblasted, getting rid of all the things that make us human, good and bad Synthesis won't stop wars or even fights.  

Those aren't caused because people don't understand each other, they are caused because someone has something that the other person wants.   Whether it's power over others or they need more space to grow, eventually someone is going to cause problems and someone else will react with violence.  Unless everyone in the galexy has been mindblasted.  

For me, the cost of losing what makes us human is not worth it.  I picked it once and won't be picking it again.  I agree,  Shepard can handle the guilt and sorrow of killing Edi and the geth, just as she did with the loss of the Assari, humans, turians and others who helped fight to destroy the reapers.  

But I don't mind it being a choice, it's just not one I will pick.


Being human sucks you know. Losing your humanity isnt bad as long as you become something greater. And their 2 kinds of war: the ideological war and the war for resources.  Both are solved with synthesis


Says who?

Maybe I'm an crazed scientist and want to see how much this new knoweldge can propel my expermiments.

I still cause conflict, and if my experiments succeed I can still cause war. I don't care if I understand someone, I just need their new DNA to help build my cyborg laser shooting dinosaurs.


Because all mental defects will be noted and corrected. Your argument is theirfore irrelevant.


Wait hold on, I thought this was just giving everyone understanding and curing diseases.

Are you saying my mad scientist personality is a disease? Doesn't changing ones personality contradict the no brainwashing stance?

#1212
Poison_Berrie

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I'd like to add that I'm against it because it dares create the ridiculous notion that this is the endpoint/pinnacle of evolution.
No diversity and adaptability, some sort of homegenic endgoal.

The idea is completely counter to both the theory of evolution and most views on transhumanism (freedom of choice).

#1213
Ieldra

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Poison_Berrie wrote...
I'd like to add that I'm against it because it dares create the ridiculous notion that this is the endpoint/pinnacle of evolution.
No diversity and adaptability, some sort of homegenic endgoal.

The idea is completely counter to both the theory of evolution and most views on transhumanism (freedom of choice).

I don't see any homogenity in the epilogue, and EDI explicitly says they're going to advance more towards an existence she can't even imagine. Sounds like the opposite of stagnation to me. That phrase "final evolution" is clearly a misnomer. As I see it, it just indicates that post-Synthesis civilization takes control of its own evolution.

#1214
Argable

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I had a fun thought!

We see synthesis applied to plants and non-sentient life as well a sentient ones. So is it considered conflict for a predator, lets say a varren, to still want to eat a prey animal, let's say a pyjak? If yes, then everything higher on the food chain than herbivores starves to death. If no, then why on earth would it do anything to stop any of the reasons humans conflict with each other?

#1215
Galbrant

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To me personally the mere concept of the synthesis ending is less likely to happen than a conventional victory with muskets against the Reapers. In fact I don't think I seen Science Fiction this bad since the Star Trek Voyager Episode Threshold... and you can't get worse than that.

#1216
Fuzzfro

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 I like synthesis

From the synthesis compendium thread


The exposition in the Extended Cut makes it clear that Synthesis is a good ending. There is a new golden age, the knowledge of the old cycles and their cultures has been saved, and the future holds the promise of an ascension to a new state of existence, with new horizons unfathomable to those who came before.


Seems like a good future to me, and if Star childs logic is to be beleived it is the one ending that prevents the destruction of all organic life by synthetics from happening in the future. While Destroy may not be an adequate solution to the problem. Then again if you beleive StarChilds logic is wrong this would be irrelevant but it's important to understand that Starchilds solution is based off the knowledge of an ancient advanced race and millions of years of research to get a solution that works.

I do not mind the other endings though it's just that I beleive Synthesis is the best option for organic and synthetic life and secures a prosporous future for the galaxy. Can we all just get along and accept others have different opinions on which is the best ending?

Modifié par Fuzzfro, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .


#1217
Ieldra

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Galbrant wrote...
To me personally the mere concept of the synthesis ending is less likely to happen than a conventional victory with muskets against the Reapers. In fact I don't think I seen Science Fiction this bad since the Star Trek Voyager Episode Threshold... and you can't get worse than that.

The only "bad SF" about the Synthesis is the process. You'll find similar results in SF literature en masse. I recommend a look at the Orion's Arm Universe Project to see the outlandish things possible if you stick to hard SF and get creative. Open the encyclopedia and read the "sophonts" chapter.

@Fuzzfro:
My sig consists of two images, an upper and a lower one. That's necessary because otherwise it would get resized by the forum software. Just in case you want to use the whole sig instead of only half of it :lol:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:13 .


#1218
Argable

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Galbrant wrote...
To me personally the mere concept of the synthesis ending is less likely to happen than a conventional victory with muskets against the Reapers. In fact I don't think I seen Science Fiction this bad since the Star Trek Voyager Episode Threshold... and you can't get worse than that.

The only "bad SF" about the Synthesis is the process. You'll find similar results in SF literature en masse. I recommend a look at the Orion's Arm Universe Project to see the outlandish things possible if you stick to hard SF and get creative. Open the encyclopedia and read the "sophonts" chapter.

@Fuzzfro:
My sig consists of two images, an upper and a lower one. That's necessary because otherwise it would get resized by the forum software. Just in case you want to use the whole sig instead of only half of it :lol:


On its own is it bad sci-fi? I wouldn't say so, and I've certainly read wilder. In the ME universe, which has limited the suspension of disbelief to eezo for 2 an 9/10 games, and then suddenly pulls this with no explanation? Yes, that's bad writing. Sci-fi or otherwise. It's an ending from a completely different story that we never read.

#1219
AlexMBrennan

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The exposition in the Extended Cut makes it clear that Synthesis is a good ending.

That's an argument after the fact (I should put that in my signature, really). You cannot use it to justify having Shepard choose synthesis.

My problem with synthesis is simple: I, the player, do not believe that synthesis is possible based on the information available at the time the decision is made; epilogue slides do not affect this because that would be an argument after the fact. Throughout ME3, we run into Cerberus trying to control the Reapers, so I can believe that it's theoretically possible to control the Reapers. I certainly believe that it's possible to destroy Reapers.

I do not believe that synthesis, assuming it is possible, would solve either the Reaper problem nor the tech singularity. Neither of these things follow logically from what we are told about synthesis by godchild - sure, it's not inconceivable, but that's not good enough.
I can, however, believe that taking control of the Reapers or destroying them would stop the Reaper war.

So the writers have basically lost me at this point. I apologize for the bias this introduces into my argument. On the other hand, I won't apologize too hard because this is Bioware's problem.

However, Shepard will have the same problem - the confrontation with Godchild is the first time they'll have heard about the possibility of synthesis, and it still doesn't follow that synthesis is a viable solution to the Reaper problem.

Therefore, I, the player, do not believe that Shepard would pick synthesis unless it was the only option offered by Godchild. Thus, meta-gaming is required to achieve Bioware's vision of an optimal ending which may or may not be all that great if you think about it for a bit...

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:21 .


#1220
Ieldra

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Fuzzfro wrote...
I do not mind the other endings though it's just that I beleive Synthesis is the best option for organic and synthetic life and secures a prosporous future for the galaxy. Can we all just get along and accept others have different opinions on which is the best ending?

Yeah, with the EC I even like Destroy, which I wouldn't have touched with a ten-foot pole earlier for the neo-Luddite and reactionary vibe I got from it.

I'd rather have people discuss the state of things after their favorite choice instead of putting so much work in hating another one.

#1221
Ieldra

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@AlexMBrennan:
That's perfectly ok. As long as you don't go and insist that other people are stupid, evil or insane for having a different perspective. That's what gets me in these threads: people's irrational insistence that theirs is the only acceptable perspective. It's like a Crusade.

BTW, the new exposition by the Catalyst is rather concrete in comparison to what came before. I can work with that. Also it wasn't that hard to predict where Synthesis was going - the EC scenario is very close in spirit to what I speculated it would be before it came out.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:22 .


#1222
ghost9191

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well my feelings on synthesis are it makes it seem that peace can only be achieved through removing diversity, and as legion said " there are many paths to the same end, accepting ones technology blinds you to those paths" or something like that. I like the idea of the races coming together, working out their problems and facing new ones together. growing as a united galaxy without having to change everyone

I also dislike synthesis for many of the reasons stated above but this is the main one. destroy it gives the races ( i know not the geth, but i haven't seen anything that shows the geth completely wiped out, maybe it just turned them back to the old geth) the chance to grow and achieve their own future, and evolve naturally, whereas synthesis forces it on them, they hit the peak of evolution, and are given technology from the reapers so they don't develop their own and whatnot.

Destroy just seems like the only option where the galaxy can live without the threat of the reapers, make their own mistakes, live learn and grow on their own. That's just me

But i hate synthesis as much as the next guy that hates it but i get the idea, they just went about it wrong it seems. Like no matter what people have to be changed to the point that they think differently , otherwise it wouldn't be that peaceful., javik is a prime example. and people that would hate the very idea of what they have become. Or if you are currently fighting reaper forces would you just stop shooting if a green shock wave passed u. I am not saying it brainwashed, but peoples state of mind does seem to change

That and edi talking ruins it a bit, i mean she just got done telling me that she feels alive because of my shepard, but then it turns out that the only way she felt alive is because of synthesis. synthesis says the catalyst is right about organics and synthetics. whereas i proved it wrong in my play through. so i do not believe it needs to be done to achieve peace

Modifié par ghost9191, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .


#1223
Argable

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@AlexMBrennan:
That's perfectly ok. As long as you don't go and insist that other people are stupid, evil or insane for having a different perspective. That's what gets me in these threads: people's irrational insistence that theirs is the only acceptable perspective. It's like a Crusade.

BTW, the new exposition by the Catalyst is rather concrete in comparison to what came before. I can work with that. Also it wasn't that hard to predict where Synthesis was going - the EC scenario is very close in spirit to what I speculated it would be before it came out.


Agreed that questioning people's judgement or intelligence based on their choice is absurd. I'm completely in favor of the destroy ending now, but pre-EC, I chose synth. That was in large part because I was shocked by how abrupt and out of place the end felt that I didn't care, but it seemed better.

Two things solidified my opinion:

1: The more I thought about synthesis, the less it made sense from a psychological standpoint. Is synthesis something I would do to myself? Sure, assuming it didn't re-write my personality or identity. As is, the ending is so unexplained that I can't guarantee that, and in leiu or a very clear explanation by the writers on how it changes the minds of so many individuals, all of whom hated the reapers, many of whom would object to being hybridized, and all of whom had an emotional stake in the war, I can't help but assume that the crucible achieved this in the most direct way possible. If it can rewrite dna, it can rewrite thought patterns and programming. I can't support that.

2: I see no reason to accept that the catalyst cares abotu individuals, or is even sane. It decided, countless times, to amalgamate civilizations into single reapers, and appears to have no care for individual lives or identities, based on its willingness to a. create reaperized troops and b. directly dominate the minds of even its own reapers, as shep does in control. So who should I assume that it cares to preserve the personality and mind of all the "chaotic" organics if shep chooses synthesis. If the catalyst wouldn't care, would it even mention it? Does it even think about identity that way? Moreover, the catalyst decided to wipe out its own creators based on this logic, so at best it has no care for individual minds, and at worst its program is horribly flawed, which is what allowed it to turn on its creators, so why should I trust its judgement? I consider it an untrustworthy source.

Edit: 3. It claims that synthetics turning on organics is inevitable and unresolvable. We have no evidence of that beyond its word, with the exception of our experience with the geth and EDI, both of which are very much resolvable. The story itself primes us to not believe that these conflicts can't be resolved, so why trust the catalyst, a brand new antagonist, over past direct experience that comprised huge sections of the game? It seems more likely that the catalyst refuses to believe that conflict can be resolved, and has no evidence otherwise because it's been wiping civilizations out before they can prove that synthetics and organics can get along.

Modifié par Argable, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .


#1224
Stumpykins

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I think the ec ending of synthesis , is the writers inability to fully comprehend the repercussions of that choice, that's y no one is freaking out, no mass suicide no hatred that this decision was made without consent , no animosity towards the reapers who still exist, I could go on.........
That why is to utopian it is very rushed , poorly thought out,

#1225
Ieldra

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Stumpykins wrote...
I think the ec ending of synthesis , is the writers inability to fully comprehend the repercussions of that choice, that's y no one is freaking out, no mass suicide no hatred that this decision was made without consent , no animosity towards the reapers who still exist, I could go on.........
That why is to utopian it is very rushed , poorly thought out,

Nobody will care about the consent issue because as much as people know, there was no other way to survive. As for people freaking out, hatred and suicides, there will be that. There always is. But complaining about that this isn't shown is like complaining that everyone appears to be happy that the enemy have now become the galactic police in Control. The endings paint a *generally* happy future. Nobody says it has to be a *universally* happy one.