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Why is everyone so against Synthesis?


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#176
MisterJB

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v TricKy v wrote...

translationninja wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Victory at any cost.
Synthesis is total defeat.

No, that's Refusal.


Not if you watch a lot of Braveheart, and Pearl Harbor and such where everyone can't wait to die for their convictions, and everyone dies beatifully without their guts and poop splashed all over the guy next to them...

300
nuff said

At least those 300 volunteered to die to slow down the enemy and give time for Sparta to rise in arms.
Wouldn't it have been nice if Leonidas had remained at home because the Oracle didn't aprove of the war and let the persians just invade unnoposed?
That's refusal.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:51 .


#177
Lord Goose

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aybe my emotions would get in the
way after all. But a paragon hero would be able to set aside
that emotions, that is my point. It would be the morally
"right" thing to do.


Paragon is also value self-determination. Synthesis is not completely paragon decision, since Shepard still forces ''better future'' on other people.

#178
Sleepdribble

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Let me just butt into this very serious conversation to say that MY shepard is against synthesist for vegitarian reasons.

Who'd want to eat a salad when the lettuce can communicate pain? Not to mention getting all that leafy circuitry stuck in your pearly whites...

#179
v TricKy v

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Forbry wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

Forbry wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Bfler wrote...

shadey wrote...

I don't think people understand synthesis

it doesn't change them into zombies under reaper control.
.


Look at the Husk in the ending sequence. Such an individual is perverted.


Why, because it's ugly or because you don't have an open mind? I have no problem believing it could be/become friendly.

Would you still think that if it would have mauled your mom to death?


Yes, beacuse the reaper" that mauled my mom to death"  will not be there anymore. 

Ok I see where this going. Lets say its easy to talk about something when its in a game and not real. You wouldnt say that if it happend in real life. We both know that


Of course. You're right. Maybe my emotions would get in the way after all. But a paragon hero would be able to set aside that emotions, that is my point. It would be the morally "right" thing to do.

Ok but you miss the point that the whole galaxy lost someone they loved. Do you really think they would accept the Reapers, the murderers, right next to them?
If they accept the Reapers that means the must have been brainwashed or they have no emotions anymore.

#180
nitefyre410

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Its really not that I'm against Synthesis but... Blue is just much more prettier color though Blue and Green exist with in the same cool color family.

#181
Reptilian Rob

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MisterJB wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

translationninja wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Victory at any cost.
Synthesis is total defeat.

No, that's Refusal.


Not if you watch a lot of Braveheart, and Pearl Harbor and such where everyone can't wait to die for their convictions, and everyone dies beatifully without their guts and poop splashed all over the guy next to them...

300
nuff said

At least those 300 volunteered to die to slow down the enemy and give time for Sparta to rise in arms.
Wouldn't it have been nice if Leonidas had remained at home because the Oracle didn't aprove of the war and let the persians just invade unnoposed?
That's refusal.

"The Persians are attacking!"

"Pfft, shut up I'm watching Futurama."

#182
Humanoid_Typhoon

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MisterJB wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

translationninja wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Victory at any cost.
Synthesis is total defeat.

No, that's Refusal.


Not if you watch a lot of Braveheart, and Pearl Harbor and such where everyone can't wait to die for their convictions, and everyone dies beatifully without their guts and poop splashed all over the guy next to them...

300
nuff said

At least those 300 volunteered to die to slow down the enemy and give time for Sparta to rise in arms.
Wouldn't it have been nice if Leonidas had remained at home because the Oracle didn't aprove of the war and let the persians just invade unnoposed?
That's refusal.

I disagree, the 300 sent in spite of the disapproval would be refuse.

#183
Giga Drill BREAKER

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Paradox6006 wrote...

 Title


Thats like asking why the rain is wet.

#184
shadey

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weltraumhamster89 wrote...

You are clearly moving in circles here or you dont understand what I mean.  So again:

If synthesis did not change the nature/ individualism of the beings, then there is not at all a guarantee for peace between organics and synthetics.  If it is not changed how people think, react etc to synthetics (as in the ME their relationship was rather pictured as a difficult one), then there is no guarantee for peace. If it is changed how people think, react etc, then you would have changed the people's nature. So not the same people anymore.


well it's a fictional game story so I'm not sure what I am suppose to prove beyond speculation.

just that synthetics brought a peace between races, synthetics and organics can now understand each other. Which was a cause of the problems like the geth/quarian conflict was just all based on misunderstanding.

maybe every race being invaded and having their worlds nearly destroyed has given them a different perspective on conflict

Modifié par shadey, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .


#185
translationninja

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This opens so many different philosophical cans of worms. I don't particularly favor synthesis, but to label it as defeat to the reapers is just narrow-minded (notwithstanding that it is kinda silly, illogical and a bit contrived).

#186
Escocido

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Lord Goose wrote...

By the definition of who? The Reapers. No thank you.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Just because they're villains doesn't mean that they're always wrong.


Yeah, just because the Star Brat is a clearly broken psycopathic AI does not mean you shouldn't have faith in it :huh:

#187
MisterJB

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v TricKy v wrote...
Ok but you miss the point that the whole galaxy lost someone they loved. Do you really think they would accept the Reapers, the murderers, right next to them?
If they accept the Reapers that means the must have been brainwashed or they have no emotions anymore.

Just because we don't see resentment against the Reapers in the epilogue, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
For instance, we also don't see resentment against the salarians for their innaction in the Destroy epilogue. Should I assume people were brainwashed into forgiving them?

Anyway, we can only make peace with our enemies. Humanity was able to, mostly, forgive the turians for the FCW because it was benefitial to join the gallactic community. Now, it's benefitial to accept the Reaper's help in rebuilding.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .


#188
The Angry One

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Escocido wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

By the definition of who? The Reapers. No thank you.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Just because they're villains doesn't mean that they're always wrong.


Yeah, just because the Star Brat is a clearly broken psycopathic AI does not mean you shouldn't have faith in it :huh:


This is the guy who says the Asari are evil because they witheld some Prothean tech from the galactic community they created.

Shouldn't take seriously.

#189
Sisterofshane

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Forbry wrote...


All other endings force something on others too. Really not that hard to see if you wánt to see it.


Technically true, but Synthesis and Control are the options that specifically take away self-determination.

Destroy doesn't remove self-determination, because you have (presumably) united everyone under the plan of defeating the Reapers - most hoping that you will destroy them, thus winning back the right to live their lives as they were meant to, free from influence and the fear of an unavoidable destruction.  Everyone at Earth (including the Geth, and EDI), are already willing to give up their lives in order for this goal to be achieved for everyone else that survives the battle.  The only thing you "force" is the death of Synthetics who were already willing to die for exactly the decision that you make.

In Control, you have left the galaxy in it's previous state, and even though you don't destroy the Reapers, you do manage to stop them, as well as remove the threat of them resuming the cycle.  Good enough right?  Except for the fact that you then use the Reapers as your personal police force - in a way you are continuing to influence the order of the Galaxy.  Do you think AI Shep will not intervene in matters it has deemed itself to be wholly responsible for?  Do you think that organics will NOT somehow alter their behavior under threat of retribution from the new Reaper Overlord.  Even in being a benevolant Dictator, you are still Dictating (a word which very essence means to give a command to be obeyed).

In Synthesis, you have taken every being in the galaxy, picked them up from point "A", and dropped them off at "Z".  The (supposedly) very last stop.  What is there to do now?  To strive for?  How will cultures adapt to suddenly no longer needed to discover, to invent, and engage (which are some core values of sapience)?.  So much for the old adage "it's not about the destination, but about the Journey".  What happens to those people who can't culturally adapt to the changes you have made (only a problem if personality is retained, otherwise you've just violated everyone on a much more personal level)?  You have noticeably changed everyone's life without their expressed consent.

Refusal is the violation of the trust of everyone under your command.  They are dying for the specific purpose of giving you enough time to activate the Crucible, and have already accepted that there might be dire consequences to using it.  You fail them by not making a choice that can end the war immediately, even if you are making the choice that protects your moral values.
  • diadilau aime ceci

#190
translationninja

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Escocido wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...


By the definition of who? The Reapers. No thank you.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Just because they're villains doesn't mean that they're always wrong.


Yeah, just because the Star Brat is a clearly broken psycopathic AI does not mean you shouldn't have faith in it :huh:


By that logic you should have destroyed the Rachni queen, mess with the genophage cure and all other sorts of mean things.

No one advocates "faith" in the star brat, obviously he's broken, that doesn't mean that choosing the exact opposite to all that he says will work now does it?

#191
Ridwan

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Because turning green and becoming best friends with the Reaper that just killed your family doesn't sit well by many.

#192
Reptilian Rob

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The Angry One wrote...

Escocido wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

By the definition of who? The Reapers. No thank you.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Just because they're villains doesn't mean that they're always wrong.


Yeah, just because the Star Brat is a clearly broken psycopathic AI does not mean you shouldn't have faith in it :huh:


This is the guy who says the Asari are evil because they witheld some Prothean tech from the galactic community they created.

Shouldn't take seriously.

MFW the Asari pushed for the "Pentalty for witholding Prothean teachnology law" in ME1.

#193
Bizantura

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I have no problem if others want synthesis as their solution, it is their perogative to undergo that reality. I have a problem that it will be forced on everybody. The catalyst is a totalitarian nutpot so I don't see/understand why you would even talk/reason with it. I rather die fighting it then subdue to its nonsence.

#194
The Angry One

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translationninja wrote...

By that logic you should have destroyed the Rachni queen, mess with the genophage cure and all other sorts of mean things.

No one advocates "faith" in the star brat, obviously he's broken, that doesn't mean that choosing the exact opposite to all that he says will work now does it?


The Rachni queen was an innocent, who expressed regret.
Wrex is a leader with a different outlook for the Krogan.

The Catalyst is unrepentant and unchanging, continuing to murder people even as you have your conversation.
Not the same. At all.

Actually, the genophage is an argument in the favour of anti-synthesis. Why?
Wrex and Wreav. With Wrex, Mordin will not back down. The Krogan deserve another chance.
With Wreav in charge and Eve dead, Mordin backs down. Why? Because the unrepentant, belligerent Krogan are a danger and not to be trusted.

The Reapers are unrepentant. Synthesis vindicates them. They are not to be trusted, and neither is their agenda. The end.

#195
MisterJB

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You don't think preferring to let every major world burn rather than give up political power doesn't deserve an harsh reprimand?
Just because they had an hand in the creation of the gallactic "community" we should let them do whatever they wished, regardless of how hypocritical and destructive for us?

#196
The Angry One

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MisterJB wrote...

You don't think preferring to let every major world burn rather than give up political power doesn't deserve an harsh reprimand?
Just because they had an hand in the creation of the gallactic "community" we should let them do whatever they wished, regardless of how hypocritical and destructive for us?


Every world was under it's own pressures. In the end, they did the right thing. Unlike, say, the Salarians.
Yet few ever seem to ask for their heads.

#197
Baronesa

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Bizantura wrote...

I have no problem if others want synthesis as their solution, it is their perogative to undergo that reality. I have a problem that it will be forced on everybody. The catalyst is a totalitarian nutpot so I don't see/understand why you would even talk/reason with it. I rather die fighting it then subdue to its nonsence.


^^^^^^^^

This

#198
shadey

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Bizantura wrote...

I have no problem if others want synthesis as their solution, it is their perogative to undergo that reality. I have a problem that it will be forced on everybody. The catalyst is a totalitarian nutpot so I don't see/understand why you would even talk/reason with it. I rather die fighting it then subdue to its nonsence.


refusal to co-operate though forces your choice on everyone with death.

even when a conventional war with the reapers is not possible to win.

 you may want to die fighting but what about other people who want to avoid being turned into zombie husks 

#199
MisterJB

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The Angry One wrote...
Every world was under it's own pressures. In the end, they did the right thing. Unlike, say, the Salarians.
Yet few ever seem to ask for their heads.

When they had Reapers on their own planets. Thank you oh so very  much.
They would sooner let us go all extinct than reveal the existence of that Beacon.

The same for the salarians. The only worthwhile ones are Mordin, Padok and Kirrahe.

#200
Humanoid_Typhoon

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translationninja wrote...

This opens so many different philosophical cans of worms. I don't particularly favor synthesis, but to label it as defeat to the reapers is just narrow-minded (notwithstanding that it is kinda silly, illogical and a bit contrived).

Let me ask you something.

This will sound awful but I beleive it will convey my point.

Imagine someone had you on the ground and they were kicking you in the stomach over and over and their friend came over and told you he was behind the assault and had the person assaulting you under hypnosis and he would be willing to give you 3 way out of this 1.Eat a pile of dog crap laying near by (synthesis) 2.Use the hypnosis  and learn the triggers for it to stop the assault and control the person assaulting you (control) or  3.Use this pistol to shoot the person assaulting you and the resulting shot will hit an innocent bystander and the man handing you the gun. or you can make up option 4. try and fight back on your own. 

The first three are options he has given to you and no matter which one you pick, you still had to submit to him. This is in essence where the catalyst has you, over a barrel. which do you choose?