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[DKJaigen]

The Angry One wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Comparing apples to oranges, ME1 is not ME3 as ME1 was not about a galactic war. Different thematics, ME3 has a theme of "Victory through sacrifice" something we were beaten over the head with at every turn (Victory at any cost - Victus)

Please don't make me explain space operatics again...My poor fingers...

Victory at any cost.
Synthesis is total defeat.

Reject may mean the fall of this cycle, but the next cycle will dispose of the Reapers.
Synthesis means the Reapers will have won, not just this cycle, but forever. All organic and synthetic life exterminated and replaced with their ideal. The Reapers made immortal in a society they have crafted.
It's flat out disgusting.

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Every world was under it's own pressures. In the end, they did the right thing. Unlike, say, the Salarians.
Yet few ever seem to ask for their heads.

When they had Reapers on their own planets. Thank you oh so very  much.
They would sooner let us go all extinct than reveal the existence of that Beacon.

The same for the salarians. The only worthwhile ones are Mordin, Padok and Kirrahe.

And the Turians demanded you evacuate their Primarch.
And the Krogan demanded you cure the genophage.
And the Quarians demanded you help them get their planet back.

Nobody did anything for free here. Stop singling out the Asari.

[Escocido]

translationninja wrote...

Escocido wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

By the definition of who? The Reapers. No thank you.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Just because they're villains doesn't mean that they're always wrong.

Yeah, just because the Star Brat is a clearly broken psycopathic AI does not mean you shouldn't have faith in it 

By that logic you should have destroyed the Rachni queen, mess with the genophage cure and all other sorts of mean things.

No one advocates "faith" in the star brat, obviously he's broken, that doesn't mean that choosing the exact opposite to all that he says will work now does it?

No broken AI  told me to spare the Rachni queen. The Rachni queen begged for her life and I granted her request because I didn't feel like commiting genocide and I knew we would soon have bigger fish to fry. 

Curing the genophage is actually the opposite of having blind faith in anyone. Everyone tells you that Krogan WILL revolt again, it is inevitable, Krogan will always rebel against their creat..sorry, against the Council. 

Letting a broken AI change everyone bodies and everyones minds when five minutes ago had the explicit purpose of indoctrinating and huskify/reaperize everyone in the galaxy is a great leap of faith, if not pure stupidity. 

Same goes for control, merging with a machine that has always had the power to indoctrinate you and convince you that its goals (annihilation) are right is asking for trouble. 

You know those endings work because you see what happens after, but if you were in that situation and couldn't predict the future, only destroy is an acceptable choice, is the only one in which you don't open your head (and/or the rest of the galaxy's) to an omnicidal maniac. 

[The Angry One]

DKJaigen wrote...

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

If I go around killing people and putting their brains in jars, that's preservation.
It's also murder, and I'd be insane. So yes, their ideal is bad. Because they are crazy. Also, it's forced on everyone.

[v TricKy v]

MisterJB wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...
Ok but you miss the point that the whole galaxy lost someone they loved. Do you really think they would accept the Reapers, the murderers, right next to them?
If they accept the Reapers that means the must have been brainwashed or they have no emotions anymore.

Just because we don't see resentment against the Reapers in the epilogue, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
For instance, we also don't see resentment against the salarians for their innaction in the Destroy epilogue. Should I assume people were brainwashed into forgiving them?

Anyway, we can only make peace with our enemies. Humanity was able to, mostly, forgive the turians for the FCW because it was benefitial to join the gallactic community. Now, it's benefitial to accept the Reaper's help in rebuilding.

Do you know what I find funny?
You are saying there are events that we just dont know because they dont get shown. At the same time you are denying exactly that in the refuse ending. As a matter of fact you see NOTHING after it cuts to black.
So its ok for you to assume things in the other endings but not in the refuse ending?

[Mavqt]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Its really not that I'm against Synthesis but... Blue is just much more prettier color though Blue and Green exist with in the same cool color family.

I always thought that it was.

Primary colours; Blue, Red and Yellow.
Secondary; Green, Purple and Orange.

Anyway back to topic. I have not chosen Synthesis ever because, we will achieve it eventually, the Reapers are still in the picture, I do not believe such a "Option" (is that the correct word to use?) should be force onto anyone, let alone trillions. This was not the plan when we decided to build the Crucible. In my opinion the majority of people in the galaxy would be against this. Etc etc, can't be bothered to write the rest down.

[MisterJB]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

translationninja wrote...

This opens so many different philosophical cans of worms. I don't particularly favor synthesis, but to label it as defeat to the reapers is just narrow-minded (notwithstanding that it is kinda silly, illogical and a bit contrived).

Let me ask you something.

This will sound awful but I beleive it will convey my point.

Imagine someone had you on the ground and they were kicking you in the stomach over and over and their friend came over and told you he was behind the assault and had the person assaulting you under hypnosis and he would be willing to give you 3 way out of this 1.Eat a pile of dog crap laying near by (synthesis) 2.Use the hypnosis  and learn the triggers for it to stop the assault and control the person assaulting you (control) or  3.Use this pistol to shoot the person assaulting you and the resulting shot will hit an innocent bystander and the man handing you the gun. or you can make up option 4. try and fight back on your own. 

The first three are options he has given to you and no matter which one you pick, you still had to submit to him. This is in essence where the catalyst has you, over a barrel. which do you choose?

The analogy doesn't work. It fails to take into account how the Reapers exist to preserve life whereas the actions of this third person have no motivation and it also fails to take into account how synthesis greatly benefits all civilizations whereas eating feces would be hummiliating and leave a bad tast in your mouth. Also, unhealthy.

[Gorkan86]

The Angry One wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

If I go around killing people and putting their brains in jars, that's preservation.
It's also murder, and I'd be insane. So yes, their ideal is bad. Because they are crazy. Also, it's forced on everyone.

Very poor example. It's just murder.

[translationninja]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

translationninja wrote...

This opens so many different philosophical cans of worms. I don't particularly favor synthesis, but to label it as defeat to the reapers is just narrow-minded (notwithstanding that it is kinda silly, illogical and a bit contrived).

Let me ask you something.

This will sound awful but I beleive it will convey my point.

Imagine someone had you on the ground and they were kicking you in the stomach over and over and their friend came over and told you he was behind the assault and had the person assaulting you under hypnosis and he would be willing to give you 3 way out of this 1.Eat a pile of dog crap laying near by (synthesis) 2.Use the hypnosis  and learn the triggers for it to stop the assault and control the person assaulting you (control) or  3.Use this pistol to shoot the person assaulting you and the resulting shot will hit an innocent bystander and the man handing you the gun. or you can make up option 4. try and fight back on your own. 

The first three are options he has given to you and no matter which one you pick, you still had to submit to him. This is in essence where the catalyst has you, over a barrel. which do you choose?

I appreciate the time you took to write this post, there is only one little problem with it, what I would do for myself in my individual situation for myself may very much differ from what I would do with all living beings in the galaxy at stake.

Of course for me personally, I'd like to think I'd get up and try to beat the crap out of the guy. But then, that usually depends on how bad you've been beaten up just prior, so while it is really romantic to wallow in thoughts of a Rocky ending, as in, taking severe abuse for ten rounds and then beating the crap out of the guy, I don't really think that is what would happen here.

So, whilst I really appreciate your post, I can't really answer it because the fiction is not about an individual getting up fighting against his/her tormentor, but about a person having to decide the fate of the entire galaxy.

[The Angry One]

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

If I go around killing people and putting their brains in jars, that's preservation.
It's also murder, and I'd be insane. So yes, their ideal is bad. Because they are crazy. Also, it's forced on everyone.

Very poor example. It's just murder.

So is what the Reapers do. They can sugar coat it all they want, and if you believe that sugar-coating I feel sorry for you.
Civilisations are murdered. Billions are killed, billions more are huskified and the rest are "ascended". By "ascended" I mean melted into goo and that goo used as construction material to form an organic based gestalt intelligence.

That is murder. That is genocide.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
And the Turians demanded you evacuate their Primarch.
And the Krogan demanded you cure the genophage.
And the Quarians demanded you help them get their planet back.

Nobody did anything for free here. Stop singling out the Asari.

The turians were already under attack, the krogan would go extinct if they attempted to fight the Reapers without being able to reproduce and the quarians are just warmongering idiots.

Oh, I don't expect people to simply send ships and soldiers to Earth out of the kindness of their hearts but the asari were not being attacked at the beginning of the game, they knew they had information that could help with the Crucible and even so, their line of tought was "Let's wait to see if the humans adn turians can take care of this problem on their own. Who cares if billions of them will die? Our political pull is more important."

[translationninja]

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

If I go around killing people and putting their brains in jars, that's preservation.
It's also murder, and I'd be insane. So yes, their ideal is bad. Because they are crazy. Also, it's forced on everyone.

Very poor example. It's just murder.

Sorry for double-posting, every civilized legal system in the world recognizes certain degrees of murder and considers mitigating and aggravating circumstances. It's not that black and white really.

[Gorkan86]

The Angry One wrote...

So is what the Reapers do. They can sugar coat it all they want, and if you believe that sugar-coating I feel sorry for you.
Civilisations are murdered. Billions are killed, billions more are huskified and the rest are "ascended". By "ascended" I mean melted into goo and that goo used as construction material to form an organic based gestalt intelligence.

That is murder. That is genocide.

Of course it would be murder if they have demonstrated in the cutscene those things that you said.
But there's other things happen.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The turians were already under attack, the krogan would go extinct if they attempted to fight the Reapers without being able to reproduce and the quarians are just warmongering idiots.

Um. No. The genophage cure changes nothing in the short term.
It doesn't alter their current numbers or their fighting ability. The genophage is purely a post war variable.
They used the war as leverage in order to gain a cure. I don't begrudge them that, it's the best opportunity they'll ever have. But the point is, they didn't do this just because.

Oh, I don't expect people to simply send ships and soldiers to Earth out of the kindness of their hearts but the asari were not being attacked at the beginning of the game, they knew they had information that could help with the Crucible and even so, their line of tought was "Let's wait to see if the humans adn turians can take care of this problem on their own. Who cares if billions of them will die? Our political pull is more important."

Yeah, justlike everyone else.
Didn't see the Alliance rushing to the aid of the Batarians either.

[The Angry One]

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So is what the Reapers do. They can sugar coat it all they want, and if you believe that sugar-coating I feel sorry for you.
Civilisations are murdered. Billions are killed, billions more are huskified and the rest are "ascended". By "ascended" I mean melted into goo and that goo used as construction material to form an organic based gestalt intelligence.

That is murder. That is genocide.

Of course it would be murder if they have demonstrated in the cutscene those things that you said.
But there's other things happen.

What are you talking about? That's ALL they do.
The melting? THAT is ascension. That's it. Read the codex, the grisly details of Reaper death camps and processing ships. It's murder. No matter the reason the Catalyst makes up for itself.

[Gorkan86]

The Angry One wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So is what the Reapers do. They can sugar coat it all they want, and if you believe that sugar-coating I feel sorry for you.
Civilisations are murdered. Billions are killed, billions more are huskified and the rest are "ascended". By "ascended" I mean melted into goo and that goo used as construction material to form an organic based gestalt intelligence.

That is murder. That is genocide.

Of course it would be murder if they have demonstrated in the cutscene those things that you said.
But there's other things happen.

What are you talking about? That's ALL they do.
The melting? THAT is ascension. That's it. Read the codex, the grisly details of Reaper death camps and processing ships. It's murder. No matter the reason the Catalyst makes up for itself.

I'm talking about what is happening on the screen when Crucible shoots a green beam. What happens to people and other creatures.
No one is melted.

[The Angry One]

Gorkan86 wrote...

I'm talking about what is happening on the screen when Crucible shoots a green beam. What happens to people and other creatures.
No one is melted.

No, they're just turned into husks instead and connected to all Reapers.
Something which the Catalyst admits was it's true goal over all. Yeah that's great.

[DKJaigen]

The Angry One wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Is their ideal so bad then. And for the record you seem to forget what the reapers are really trying to do. Their goal is not extermination but preservation (In a very ****ed up manner but its still preservation)

If I go around killing people and putting their brains in jars, that's preservation.
It's also murder, and I'd be insane. So yes, their ideal is bad. Because they are crazy. Also, it's forced on everyone.

The reapers dont like reapervication either. Thats why synthesis was attempted

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
Um. No. The genophage cure changes nothing in the short term.
It doesn't alter their current numbers or their fighting ability. The genophage is purely a post war variable.
They used the war as leverage in order to gain a cure. I don't begrudge them that, it's the best opportunity they'll ever have. But the point is, they didn't do this just because.

Yes, they did use the war. But they had good reasons. Their population is already severelly depleted and the Reapers don't cause light wounds. We could win the war and, regardless of the status of a cure, the krogan not have enough numbers to keep a population.

Yeah, justlike everyone else.
Didn't see the Alliance rushing to the aid of the Batarians either.

They didn't ask for it. We only knew what was happening because dozen of refugee ships started pouring into our territory.
But I'm not even asking for the asari to leave their worlds defenseless and rush to Sol. Just for them to reveal the existence of the beacon as soon as Shepard appeared with the plans for a prothean superweapon. Billions of lives could have been save if they had just done that rather than waiting until they had no other choice.
I expect humans and turians and volus and elcor would be much more willing to forgive and forget.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .

[translationninja]

Technically speaking, a machine can't commit murder. The one that built the machine may have committed negligent homicide or whatever...just saying...

[Escocido]

Gorkan86 wrote...

I'm talking about what is happening on the screen when Crucible shoots a green beam. What happens to people and other creatures.
No one is melted.

Yeah, but you know that AFTER you choose the ending. 

Modifié par Escocido, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .

[Charsi]

Cyne wrote...

it's genetic mutation of every species in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent

+1

And goes agains't everything shepard been fighting for, over the series!  

Modifié par Charsi, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[DKJaigen]

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

By that logic you should have destroyed the Rachni queen, mess with the genophage cure and all other sorts of mean things.

No one advocates "faith" in the star brat, obviously he's broken, that doesn't mean that choosing the exact opposite to all that he says will work now does it?

The Rachni queen was an innocent, who expressed regret.
Wrex is a leader with a different outlook for the Krogan.

The Catalyst is unrepentant and unchanging, continuing to murder people even as you have your conversation.
Not the same. At all.

Actually, the genophage is an argument in the favour of anti-synthesis. Why?
Wrex and Wreav. With Wrex, Mordin will not back down. The Krogan deserve another chance.
With Wreav in charge and Eve dead, Mordin backs down. Why? Because the unrepentant, belligerent Krogan are a danger and not to be trusted.

The Reapers are unrepentant. Synthesis vindicates them. They are not to be trusted, and neither is their agenda. The end.

So they must say sry before you trust them. They are beings of pure logic with no emotion. So they can be trusted

[Bizantura]

shadey wrote...

Bizantura wrote...

I have no problem if others want synthesis as their solution, it is their perogative to undergo that reality. I have a problem that it will be forced on everybody. The catalyst is a totalitarian nutpot so I don't see/understand why you would even talk/reason with it. I rather die fighting it then subdue to its nonsence.

refusal to co-operate though forces your choice on everyone with death.

even when a conventional war with the reapers is not possible to win.

 you may want to die fighting but what about other people who want to avoid being turned into zombie husks 

Sadly all wars lead to victems.  And yes I feel for them.  Even cooperation with that nutpot leads to victimization.  Thats the beauty of its resolve, it makes you choose  thinking you save lives that is why you consider its proposition.  For me, no thank you.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, they did use the war. But they had good reasons. Their population is already severelly depleted and the Reapers don't cause light wounds. We could win the war and, regardless of the status of a cure, the krogan not have enough numbers to keep a population.

Never said they didn't, but they don't need it to fight either. It doesn't give them super fertility powers, and it could be cured after the war.

They didn't ask for it. We only knew what was happening because dozen of refugee ships started pouring into our territory.
But I'm not even asking for the asari to leave their worlds defenseless and rush to Sol. Just for them to reveal the existence of the beacon as soon as Shepard appeared with the plans for a prothean superweapon. Billions of lives could have been save if they had just done that rather than waiting until they had no other choice.
I expect humans and turians and volus and elcor would be much more willing to forgive and forget.

How would the Asari even know that their archive just happened to have a VI that just happened to know what the Catalyst was? Moreover since they'd still have to wait for completion of the Crucible about the same amount of lives would've been lost.