267 réponses à ce sujet

[El Mito]

Bioware's writing doesn't even come close to the best works of Obsidian, Valve, CDPR,....
Don't make me laugh.

[CronoDragoon]

m_k wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

ME3's ending is utter garbage. Yes, their writing IS normally very good. That doesn't make slop somehow better just because it's next to writing that's decent.

Seriously? I understand people don't like the ending, but to call the entirety of ME3 utter garbage is completely ridiculous.

I wouldn't call it utter garbage, but it's mediocre at best compared to the previous titles. Even nost considering the ending.

Disagree. Prior to the ending ME3's story is the best in the trilogy.

[Messi Kossmann]

El Mito wrote...

Bioware's writing doesn't even come close to the best works of Obsidian, Valve, CDPR,....
Don't make me laugh.

Obsidian, Are you serious???????? The best game of Obsidian is worse than the worst Bioware game.

And cdpr has only two games, and only one is great. The Bioware has a legacy of dozens of games. Do not want to compare one with another, at least for now.

[El Mito]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

El Mito wrote...

Bioware's writing doesn't even come close to the best works of Obsidian, Valve, CDPR,....
Don't make me laugh.

Obsidian, Are you serious???????? The best game of Obsidian is worse than the worst Bioware game.

Stopped reading right there. You are delusional.

[Messi Kossmann]

El Mito wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

El Mito wrote...

Bioware's writing doesn't even come close to the best works of Obsidian, Valve, CDPR,....
Don't make me laugh.

Obsidian, Are you serious???????? The best game of Obsidian is worse than the worst Bioware game.

Stopped reading right there. You are delusional.

I know I exaggerate, but only to show that there is no comparison between them.Compare with Bethesda. But Obsidian has always been a secondary!

[El Mito]

Obisidian is miles above Bethesda when it comes to crafting a story. Miles. Bioware hasn't written a good story since the first Mass Effect. They've been going downhill ever since.

[SnazzyBeast]

I didn't join these forums until after ME3. I'm sure there wasn't nearly as much negativity on here after ME or ME2, but for anyone who was around then - what was it like? I'm just curious. It seems that any forum for any form of media that i like is always full of people bashing the show/game etc. or talking about how it has regressed from previous seasons/releases. I don't know if i just have a habit of joining at a bad time, or if that is just the nature of forums. I know people are more likely to be vocal if they're unhappy or unsatisfied...

[Malchat]

In Bioware games, the storytelling is as much a feature as the actual game mechanics - in some Bioware titles, where we put up with clunky mechanics or nonsensical combat scenes just to progress the narrative, even more so.

This emphasis on story sets them apart from other developers, where it's pretty much game mechanics and design first and the narrative is only slotted in when all the other assets are completed. In my opinion, this is the reason most AAA titles have absolutely horrendous story arcs -often you just can't write a coherent narrative around disparate pieces of content.

That's why some of us hold Bioware to a higher standard of storytelling than, say, Bethesda.

Where I suspect ME3 (and to a lesser extent ME2) went off the rails is the lack of narrative planning. The team seems to have added 'cool stuff' and then depended on the writing team to tie it all together. This means that a lot of ME's 'big moments' never really pay off further down the line: e.g. saving Council choice, Shepard dying and being resurrected, Reaper baby, Collector base decision, discovery of the Crucible, romance arcs losing all momentum between titles etc.

I suspect the Guardian/Catalyst and the sudden emphasis on Synthetics vs. Organics was one such 'cool idea' that was never written properly into the overall narrative of the trilogy. That is one reason why some people still can't accept the endings, even though the EC vastly improved their execution.

However, if you zoom in on individual scenes and dialogue, the quality of writing is mostly good and often very entertaining - concise, inventive and full of character. It's only when you step back and view the bigger picture that flaws emerge. This problem is not unique to ME by the way, I'd argue that DA and SWTOR also suffer from this.

So I wouldn't critique the individual writers - their skill and talent is right up there for everyone to see. But I do question Bioware's ability to formulate a proper narrative arc and stick to this vision through several iterations and long development cycles.

Modifié par Malchat, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[Rft552]

The Rannoch and Tuchunka missions were one of the best in the whole series. People seem to be blind to see that due to the horrible ending that is now (IMO) fixed.

[Krunjar]

There was quite a bit about me2's simplification by the me1 crowd for a while. It seems to be some kind of sport and one I think im jus gonna steer clear of. I find the idea of claiming to hate something you can't stop discussing rather laughable in the first place tbh.

[Redbelle]

I never had the reaction to ME3's ending with ME1 and 2 so I'm happy to tick the satisfied customer in their boxes........... ME3 however? Ok it's got a few problems but the majority of it was good in an 'entertaining video game narrative' way.

The new endings? Compartively the new endings are streets ahead of the old ones. But we still run onto problems with narrative consistency. Maybe the problem isn't so much that the developers felt they had to tie up the game....... they also felt they had to tie up the series, and in doing so lost track of the narrative by attempting to take the long view at all 3 games. This was a mistake as first, you need to tie up all the loose ends in the story you'v been writing before you look further afield to the rest of the series.

Maybe the curse of the trilogy just hit ME in the end. The missions were good though. Tchunka and Rannoch being the highlights.

[Messi Kossmann]

El Mito wrote...

Obisidian is miles above Bethesda when it comes to crafting a story. Miles. Bioware hasn't written a good story since the first Mass Effect. They've been going downhill ever since.

Bethesda is good to create an entire world.

But tell me, what a great game Obsidian created?
NeverWinter 2? The Bioware helped. KOTOR 2 as well.
Dungeon Siege 3? Fallout: New Vegas?
See, just games that other companies have worked, and they helped in the development.
The only game that Obsidian worked alone was  Alpha Protocol, which was a total failure!

ME2 and  Dragon Age Origins it's a bad 
story?? Are you sure??

Modifié par Messi Kossmann, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[Love Sherri]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

ME3's ending is utter garbage. Yes, their writing IS normally very good. That doesn't make slop somehow better just because it's next to writing that's decent.

Seriously? I understand people don't like the ending, but to call the entirety of ME3 utter garbage is completely ridiculous.

He said, "ME3's ending."

/selective reading

Modifié par Love Sherri, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[julio77777]

I'll admit it's not easy to write a good trilogy, but the main critic almost everybody who has a problem with the ending makes is that it does not respect the main plot, and that is valid, they obviously didn't know how to end it thus they needed the crucible/catalyst.

The main culprit here is ME2, while it is a very good game on its own, it did not advance the main plot at all. It's more of a side story than anything else. As a result it does nothing in ME3, except a few number in the war assets it's totally negligible.

Basically they should have had the end in mind back when they were making ME1, they would have avoided the whole ending debacle. Not that it's that important since most people seem satisfied with EC. Personally I think they could have done so much better, it's a shame really.

Despite that I think all ME games are at least good, dragon age origins was very enjoyable too.

As for other companies, Alpha protocol has an excellent story despite its many gameplay flaws. The witcher 1&2 are also very good.

Modifié par julio77777, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[Love Sherri]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Just go back and play something like Gears of War after having played the ME games. Maybe that'll make you appreciate the ME writing a bit more.

- Namco ( Tales of Vesperia ,  Dark Souls,  Eternal Sonata,  Magna Carta 2  )
- Bethesda ( Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion,  Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Fallout 3  )
- Rockstar Games ( Red Dead Redemption, Max Payne, L.A. Noire, Grand Theft Auto Series )
- UBI Soft ( Assassin's Creed )
- Warner Bros ( Arkham City, Arkham Asylum, The Witcher )

Just go back and play these after having played ME3.  Maybe that'll make you appreciate better writing a bit more.

Modifié par Love Sherri, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:02 .

[CronoDragoon]

SnazzyBeast wrote...

I didn't join these forums until after ME3. I'm sure there wasn't nearly as much negativity on here after ME or ME2, but for anyone who was around then - what was it like? I'm just curious. It seems that any forum for any form of media that i like is always full of people bashing the show/game etc. or talking about how it has regressed from previous seasons/releases. I don't know if i just have a habit of joining at a bad time, or if that is just the nature of forums. I know people are more likely to be vocal if they're unhappy or unsatisfied...

Funny story: Someone on the DA boards asked David Gaider around the time of Origins how he deals with all the complaints on the boards. Gaider responded that when Baldur's Gate II came out, people were saying it was the worst thing ever and that BioWare had disappointed themselves. BALDUR'S GATE II. The story is: There will always be a large amount of complainers online, no matter what the game. Of course, I think the extreme ubiquity of the ME3 complaints is not quite covered by the "haters gonna hate" thing. This time there was just too much wrong with that ending.

[CronoDragoon]

Love Sherri wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Just go back and play something like Gears of War after having played the ME games. Maybe that'll make you appreciate the ME writing a bit more.

- Namco ( Tales of Vesperia ,  Dark Souls,  Eternal Sonata,  Magna Carta 2  )
- Bethesda ( Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion,  Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Fallout 3  )
- Rockstar Games ( Red Dead Redemption, Max Payne, L.A. Noire, Grand Theft Auto Series )
- UBI Soft ( Assassin's Creed )
- Warner Bros ( Arkham City, Arkham Asylum, The Witcher )

Just go back and play these after having played ME3.  Maybe that'll make you appreciate better writing a bit more.

Not a single one of those games has better writing than the Mass Effect series.

[macrocarl]

ME3 should get Game of The Year, especially after giving us the EC.

[savionen]

Rft552 wrote...

The Rannoch and Tuchunka missions were one of the best in the whole series. People seem to be blind to see that due to the horrible ending that is now (IMO) fixed.

I haven't seen anybody say Rannoch or Tuchanka are bad. Those two missions are great. But the rest of ME3's dialogue really ranges from mediocre to absolutely terrible.

[jeff359]

The Angry One wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

ME3's ending is utter garbage. Yes, their writing IS normally very good. That doesn't make slop somehow better just because it's next to writing that's decent.

Seriously? I understand people don't like the ending, but to call the entirety of ME3 utter garbage is completely ridiculous.

- The intro
- Pandering to new players
- Kai Leng
- The Empire of Cerberus
- Evil Udina
- TIM becoming a grade A moron
- Misuse of Harbinger
- Misuse of ME2 characters
- Misuse of the Rachni
- Kai Leng
- The concept and execution of the Crucible
- In fact, virtually everything except Rannoch, Tuchanka and maybe Sanctuary.

This

[Urdnot Amenark]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I always see posts bashing the writing of ME1,2 and 3. Granted there are plot holes, but c'mon guys. The BioWare writing staff is miles ahead of most developers. I've never been more involved in any other video games. The Dragon Age series feels like a novel unfolding before your eyes. A novel you get to write. The Mass Effect series feels like a movie you get to star in. The BioWare team is great at their jobs, we've just been spoiled by their talent.



...granted their work is not perfect, but it's definately good.

When fire burns, is it war? (This is a TERRIBLE line, I'm sorry) 

I think the writing is definitely superior to most. However, with three, I feel that the main problem the writing doesn't resonate with players in most cases is due to there being only about three or so writers that were involved in the other projects before in the last entry. They kind of lost the audience because some of them just didn't understand the connection we'd built with the characters and conflicts in the game. Prime example? How they handled some of the LI's and other characters, especially the character assassination of Jacob and other underwritten character roles; the abrupt abandon of the Dark Energy theme gaining increased prominence in the second game; the convoluted climax and ulterior purpose of the Reapers, to name the most popular examples. There were moments of genius certainly - the dream sequences; the gift from Liara; the fall of Thessia; Javik - but at a time as crucial as this, players are going to give more attention to the things that don't feel organic. Karpyshyn leaving also didn't leave a very positive impression.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the predictability of TIM becoming the new Saren as another reason players don't like the writing (this was predicted fairly early by more than a few fellow BSN members).

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:15 .

[CronoDragoon]

savionen wrote...

Rft552 wrote...

The Rannoch and Tuchunka missions were one of the best in the whole series. People seem to be blind to see that due to the horrible ending that is now (IMO) fixed.

I haven't seen anybody say Rannoch or Tuchanka are bad. Those two missions are great. But the rest of ME3's dialogue really ranges from mediocre to absolutely terrible.

What would "the rest" be? I found all the squad dialogue to be quite good.

[o Ventus]

So just because they're Bioware means we can't criticize them?

[NM_Che56]

Call me a cynic, but I can't help but feel that a good number of people complaning about plot holes, etc, can barely compose a college level term paper.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Master Che wrote...

Call me a cynic, but I can't help but feel that a good number of people complaning about plot holes, etc, can barely compose a college level term paper.

Yeah, while there are a few issues I take with the plot of the series, they certainly aren't plot holes. But hey, that seems to be the most popular word to use. Then again, it was for the other games as well.