Bioware has been dropping the ball. Over and over again.
The ME3 ending is just horribly bad. In almost every manner an ending can be bad. The two worst manners, the deus ex, and rendering the entire story irrelevant, couldn't be fixed by the EC and weren't. But the rest was. The talent was suddenly back
But precisely this makes the ME3 ending a mystery. It simply cannot have been the ending ME was originally conceived to be going towards. That's quite impossible. So something happened. I'm almost dying with curiosity to find out what, but I suppose we'll never know (the rumours I've picked up don't make any sense at all, so I strongly doubt them, just internet lies). I suppose a reasonable guess, is that they ran out of planning/resources, possibly due to the multiplayer component, and the very heavy load of the burden, to fix it, was put on a person with underdeveloped 'story teller'-skills.
The good side of this, is that we'll never see anything like it again. It's still exasperating for me though, that Bioware recently, repeatedly have seemed so unaware of what's important. They spend so much effort and talent, and then they just waste it all on some important detail, because they couldn't be bothered, like. Or like no one making decisions understand it's important.
In a way, it walks hand in hand with EA ownership. But if we quickly ditch that conspiracy theory, which isn't very fruitful to explore here anyway, we see that it also walks hand in hand with this obsession with cinematics and voice acting.
Those things don't really add anything at all, to the most important part of a game, any game - which is gameplay. I, personally, would go farther - they don't add anything at all, period. And yet, suddenly, it's all that Bioware seem to be about. SWtOR is almost crazy. It's a good game and deserves better reception than it has got, but still - a MMORPG for watching endless, cinematic, voice acted dialogues? A MMORPG? - I mean...
I get this strong feeling, that a lot of involved persons think that the only thing they have to provide is a movie, broken up with combat stints. Combat is supposed to be the gameplay.
So what I'm saying, is that I suspect this cinematic-mantra, that Bioware nowadays lives with, is hurting all other aspects of their games. In particular I suspect that some bad, overriding decisions are made, just because they have to, because no 1 concern is always about cinematics.
Place roleplay, gameplay and story in the focus again.
By all means continue experimenting with cinematics, if you think it's so hot. But stop making it the focus. Don't ever 'explain' a lack of a feature, or a poor feature, or a flaw, with wordings that start with "for a cinematic game,.."
If cinematics solutions clash with gameplay features, it's the cinematic solutions which should be slashed.
Even for a maker of "cinematic" games, cinematics should be the fourth concern. Not the only. Not the first.
Get 'Our old Bioware' back: Drop focus on cinematics
Débuté par
bEVEsthda
, juil. 03 2012 12:15
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:50
Fredward
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What if someone likes the cinematics and doesn't want them to
go? Should they go die in a hole somehwere? I like the cinematics,
they're fun to watch. I should probably add something about how they
make me connect with a character or some shizz to lend weight to my
argument, but really, I just enjoy watching them.
Besides I think Bioware gets judged waaaaaay too harshly, they haven't screwed up
anything as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not Bioware meets with our
own personal standard they are still the, by far, the best "classic" RPG
company at the moment.
I hardly think the cinematics were the issue with DA2, maybe a lack of production time and vast
differences from its predecessor, mayhaps, but not the cinematics. Eh. For that matter I liked the gameplay for DA2, ME3 (which has a lot of cinematics too) as well.
So maybe just more time? Without taking from some element and adding it to another?
go? Should they go die in a hole somehwere? I like the cinematics,
they're fun to watch. I should probably add something about how they
make me connect with a character or some shizz to lend weight to my
argument, but really, I just enjoy watching them.
Besides I think Bioware gets judged waaaaaay too harshly, they haven't screwed up
anything as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not Bioware meets with our
own personal standard they are still the, by far, the best "classic" RPG
company at the moment.
I hardly think the cinematics were the issue with DA2, maybe a lack of production time and vast
differences from its predecessor, mayhaps, but not the cinematics. Eh. For that matter I liked the gameplay for DA2, ME3 (which has a lot of cinematics too) as well.
So maybe just more time? Without taking from some element and adding it to another?
Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:51 .
#3
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:52
A Crusty Knight Of Colour
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Are you a fan of KotOR, bEVEsthda?
#4
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:54
wsandista
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HAHAHA! Old Bioware ain't coming back bro! Moar cinematics, less gameplay is the new mantra!
I miss it classic BW too, but I don't think we will ever be seeing something like the classic games(BG, NWN, KOTOR, hell DAO) from BW again.
I miss it classic BW too, but I don't think we will ever be seeing something like the classic games(BG, NWN, KOTOR, hell DAO) from BW again.
#5
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:01
AkiKishi
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I always enjoy the irony that Bioware are doing the same thing that they were having a go at SquareEnix for doing.
I like cinematics some of my favourites are from the GC/Wii FireEmblem series. But the game is still a hardcore strategy/tactics RPG with perma character death.
Unfortunately as FFX showed character naming(creation) and cinematic story telling don't really work together never have, likely never will.
I like cinematics some of my favourites are from the GC/Wii FireEmblem series. But the game is still a hardcore strategy/tactics RPG with perma character death.
Unfortunately as FFX showed character naming(creation) and cinematic story telling don't really work together never have, likely never will.
#6
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:07
bEVEsthda
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Foopydoopydoo wrote...
What if someone likes the cinematics and doesn't want them to
go? Should they go die in a hole somehwere?
Right back at you: What if someone likes silent protagonist? Should they go die in a hole somehwere?
But relax. I said drop focus on. I didn't say drop cinematics.
#7
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:10
Olmerto
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Rather than "moving back", I think some ought to be hopeful that BW "hold the line" at the level of DAII's gameplay. Having a meaningful party-based RPG at all might be something that's in jeopardy.
I enjoyed DAII (although I loved DAO) and I hope we continue to get this style of gameplay, rather than some single character arcade trash.
I enjoyed DAII (although I loved DAO) and I hope we continue to get this style of gameplay, rather than some single character arcade trash.
#8
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:14
bEVEsthda
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CrustyBot wrote...
Are you a fan of KotOR, bEVEsthda?
Funny you should mention that.
I never saw KotOR as an ambitious RPG. For that reason I never paid attention before it was released on PC. At that time, I also thought by "cinematics" Bioware meant the bringing the camera down, shooting the gameplay like a movie. I didn't realize they had ambitions to start making movies.
But yeah, I liked KotOR. I thought it had a great Star Wars atmosphere.
"Fan"? Nope. Not if you mean like BG, DA (pre DA2) or TES.
#9
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:19
AkiKishi
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Olmert wrote...
Rather than "moving back", I think some ought to be hopeful that BW "hold the line" at the level of DAII's gameplay. Having a meaningful party-based RPG at all might be something that's in jeopardy.
I enjoyed DAII (although I loved DAO) and I hope we continue to get this style of gameplay, rather than some single character arcade trash.
I play with the AI 90% of the time anyway. Programming it when you switch a member is kind of a pain though.
There are so many other games that do the strategy/tactics thing better than DA2 I doubt I'd feel a great loss.Something ME'ish might be on the cards.
#10
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:28
Dutchess
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I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.
#11
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:43
Fredward
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bEVEsthda wrote...
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
What if someone likes the cinematics and doesn't want them to
go? Should they go die in a hole somehwere?
Right back at you: What if someone likes silent protagonist? Should they go die in a hole somehwere?
But relax. I said drop focus on. I didn't say drop cinematics.
True dat, we're all just arguing preferences at the end of the day. XD
#12
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:52
A Crusty Knight Of Colour
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Cutscenes are kind of a different thing to cinematics. I mean, it's similar, but not the same. Cutscenes refer mainly to scripted scenarios in which the player is afforded no control over the precise actions of their characters and is quite common in most games. A kill-cam is a cutscene, for goodness sake.
Cinematics are the use of techniques found in cinema as a method to deliver scripted moments in a way so that developers are able to control and dictate what the player sees and how they react to it. Things like how they angle the camera, facial expression, etc.
In the case of BioWare games today, they are interchangable, but the BG games, as an example, have cutscenes, but not cinematics. The ES games are a modern day example.
Just a point I wanted to make.
As for the topic, appealing to an "old BioWare" is not going to work. Ultimately, I doubt even a miniscule amount of suggestions on the forums come up for discussion or consideration at BioWare (I mean, it's only the forums), but if you wanted to make the point, it'd be best to promote the benefits of non-cinematic storytelling as opposed to talking down cinematic focus.
Either that, or talking up the benefits of player agency within the cinematics themselves.
Cinematics are the use of techniques found in cinema as a method to deliver scripted moments in a way so that developers are able to control and dictate what the player sees and how they react to it. Things like how they angle the camera, facial expression, etc.
In the case of BioWare games today, they are interchangable, but the BG games, as an example, have cutscenes, but not cinematics. The ES games are a modern day example.
Just a point I wanted to make.
As for the topic, appealing to an "old BioWare" is not going to work. Ultimately, I doubt even a miniscule amount of suggestions on the forums come up for discussion or consideration at BioWare (I mean, it's only the forums), but if you wanted to make the point, it'd be best to promote the benefits of non-cinematic storytelling as opposed to talking down cinematic focus.
Either that, or talking up the benefits of player agency within the cinematics themselves.
Modifié par CrustyBot, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .
#13
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:04
JennDragonAge
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I think cinematics had very little to do with why the original ME3 ending failed. It was the abrupt change in theme, plot holes, little foreshadowing, feeling as though your choices had no impact, and utter lack of closure. To be fair, the EC really improved the endings, a large part of which was done via cinematics. Also, when using ME as an example, it really argues for the use of VA IMO because Jennifer Hale was amazing as Shepard. I loved the VA in ME; it really made Shepard come to life.
#14
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:08
JennDragonAge
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renjility wrote...
I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.
I agree. For me, the combat is nothing more than a way to continue to keep me Immersed in the story. For me, the story and interactivity are the most important features.
Modifié par JennDragonAge, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:31 .
#15
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:20
PaulSX
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BobSmith101 wrote...
I always enjoy the irony that Bioware are doing the same thing that they were having a go at SquareEnix for doing.
I like cinematics some of my favourites are from the GC/Wii FireEmblem series. But the game is still a hardcore strategy/tactics RPG with perma character death.
Unfortunately as FFX showed character naming(creation) and cinematic story telling don't really work together never have, likely never will.
BIoWare has always been influenced by Square Enix even back to Baldur's Gate days. I heard the reason why they suddenly focused so much on characters for Baldur's Gate 2 is at that time they were totally blown away by final fantasy vii.
Modifié par suntzuxi, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .
#16
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:20
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
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Cutscenes can be a great addition in an RPG. To explain things that are not expierenced by the player in the game itself or give information about NPC's f.e.
Cinematics as they are used in DA2 made the freedom of RP smaller in comparison to DAO. Everything is hooked up on the cinematic that is shown in that particular part of the game and every action/decision that the player does/makes is working towards it. For me this makes DA2 more of an action game then a RPG.
I truly hope that this will change in the next installment and that the focus will be more on the RP- elements and the freedom of the player will increase.
Cinematics as they are used in DA2 made the freedom of RP smaller in comparison to DAO. Everything is hooked up on the cinematic that is shown in that particular part of the game and every action/decision that the player does/makes is working towards it. For me this makes DA2 more of an action game then a RPG.
I truly hope that this will change in the next installment and that the focus will be more on the RP- elements and the freedom of the player will increase.
#17
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:35
JJDrakken
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Bioware goal: Is to lie, cheat, steal your moneys. That's about it 
JJ
JJ
#18
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:37
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Few awesome cinematic don't hurt. When they turn into (take the role of) an essential part of the game, they're blight.
#19
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 03:40
Guest_Nizaris1_*
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This issue must be separated into sections :
Cut scene cinematic
- this vital to show the story progression in the plot, for example there is a war between two group, then a dragon come in going on rampage, or the hero moving into a mysterious area then saw someone doing some ritual summoning somethings...
Dialogue/Chat cinematic
- this one is that involve the dialogue wheel or options, where the camera show the character talking, body language, moving here and there a little, showing expression and some little action
Combat cinematic
- this one show how the combat look like, how the character cast magic, swinging sword, evade attack, attacking, special effects, jumping, rolling ect. It also involve the combat mechanic of the game and how the game is look like
Environment cinematic
- this one show people walking, talking, bird flying, vegetation ect ect ect on the map and making the map look alive and not just manequins standing
Which one the developer must focus on? That is the hard part. Sometimes it lost continuity, for example, before the cut scene the character standing on the left side but when the cut scene triggered the character standing on the right side, or something like that.
About choice path, the developer must create many movies and not just one and that requires many resources. They must make animation for all out comes. For example, A character killed, A character live, A character injured and run away, A character stay unharmed...ect...if want to make the whole game cinematic, they must make every single differences into animation.
So they must sacrifice combat animation for that and make it like push A button auto combat that is the computer calculate the outcomes based on stats and gears (Total War have this kind of mechanic). so for all who don't care about combat will be happy with this, but for gamers they will rage....
Cut scene cinematic
- this vital to show the story progression in the plot, for example there is a war between two group, then a dragon come in going on rampage, or the hero moving into a mysterious area then saw someone doing some ritual summoning somethings...
Dialogue/Chat cinematic
- this one is that involve the dialogue wheel or options, where the camera show the character talking, body language, moving here and there a little, showing expression and some little action
Combat cinematic
- this one show how the combat look like, how the character cast magic, swinging sword, evade attack, attacking, special effects, jumping, rolling ect. It also involve the combat mechanic of the game and how the game is look like
Environment cinematic
- this one show people walking, talking, bird flying, vegetation ect ect ect on the map and making the map look alive and not just manequins standing
Which one the developer must focus on? That is the hard part. Sometimes it lost continuity, for example, before the cut scene the character standing on the left side but when the cut scene triggered the character standing on the right side, or something like that.
About choice path, the developer must create many movies and not just one and that requires many resources. They must make animation for all out comes. For example, A character killed, A character live, A character injured and run away, A character stay unharmed...ect...if want to make the whole game cinematic, they must make every single differences into animation.
So they must sacrifice combat animation for that and make it like push A button auto combat that is the computer calculate the outcomes based on stats and gears (Total War have this kind of mechanic). so for all who don't care about combat will be happy with this, but for gamers they will rage....
Modifié par Nizaris1, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:48 .
#20
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:05
bEVEsthda
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[quote]JennDragonAge wrote...
I think cinematics had very little to do with why the original ME3 ending failed. It was the abrupt change in theme, plot holes, little foreshadowing, feeling as though your choices had no impact, and utter lack of closure. [/quote]
Thankyou for helping clarifying my original point. I didn't think it needed more clarifying, but I certainly don't mind.
ME3 failed because there was a lack of focus on what's important. They dropped the ball.
Why the original ME3 ending failed, is no mystery. It was very bad. Why it was made, or released at all, is the big mystery. Now, the question I sort of implied was: If they had been unhappy with the cinematics of that ending, had it then been released? My gut feeling is - no way!
And if Bioware stays in that mode, there's no reason to expect they will stop dropping balls.
[/quote]
I think cinematics had very little to do with why the original ME3 ending failed. It was the abrupt change in theme, plot holes, little foreshadowing, feeling as though your choices had no impact, and utter lack of closure. [/quote]
Thankyou for helping clarifying my original point. I didn't think it needed more clarifying, but I certainly don't mind.
ME3 failed because there was a lack of focus on what's important. They dropped the ball.
Why the original ME3 ending failed, is no mystery. It was very bad. Why it was made, or released at all, is the big mystery. Now, the question I sort of implied was: If they had been unhappy with the cinematics of that ending, had it then been released? My gut feeling is - no way!
And if Bioware stays in that mode, there's no reason to expect they will stop dropping balls.
[/quote]
Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .
#21
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:33
Darth Death
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Times are changing bro. Worst for the old timers & better for the young folks.
#22
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:36
Fast Jimmy
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bEVEsthda wrote...
And if Bioware stays in that mode, there's no reason to expect they will stop dropping balls.
The thirteen year old in me snickered at this.
#23
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:52
Melca36
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Foopydoopydoo wrote...
What if someone likes the cinematics and doesn't want them to
go? Should they go die in a hole somehwere? I like the cinematics,
they're fun to watch. I should probably add something about how they
make me connect with a character or some shizz to lend weight to my
argument, but really, I just enjoy watching them.
Besides I think Bioware gets judged waaaaaay too harshly, they haven't screwed up
anything as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not Bioware meets with our
own personal standard they are still the, by far, the best "classic" RPG
company at the moment.
I hardly think the cinematics were the issue with DA2, maybe a lack of production time and vast
differences from its predecessor, mayhaps, but not the cinematics. Eh. For that matter I liked the gameplay for DA2, ME3 (which has a lot of cinematics too) as well.
So maybe just more time? Without taking from some element and adding it to another?
A game should NOT be all cutscenes though. There should be an actual game with it you know.
#24
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:55
bEVEsthda
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Darth Death wrote...
Times are changing bro. Worst for the old timers & better for the young folks.
The unconvincing way DA2, ME3 and SWtOR sells, and the way the console game market is slowly, but surely, collapsing, suggests it's not better for young folks. You're just soliticing, and listening to a small, misrepresentative clique.
They may become the end of Bioware. We'll see. My money is on Bethesda, and others who try to deliver a more involved and interesting experience.
#25
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 04:58
AkiKishi
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Melca36 wrote...
A game should NOT be all cutscenes though. There should be an actual game with it you know.
I don't think that has happened since that flirtation with interactive movies shortly after things went from floppy to CD (think that's right I was not technically there at the time).
Even if you took all the cutscenes of FFXIII-2 it's still only a fraction of the total game time (and around an hour of those are the various endings)
Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .
