778 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

David Gaider wrote...
...I don't think DA has ever been as cinematic-oriented as ME, and that's unlikely to change. Whether it's as cinematic as some here might like is a different question,..

Good news.

I think there is some effort to have more of what we call "ambient cinematics", which means cinematic elements (and dialogue) that don't remove player control while they are underway, but exactly how we're doing this is in flux.

Good news.


...I think.

[bEVEsthda]

David Gaider wrote...
 If someone expects that we will spend out time trying to "fix" the dialogue system to satisfy those whose problems with it are fundamental, especially by weakening the strengths of that approach, that's simply not going to happen.

So the impression we got earlier, that some effort would be made to make wheel and voice more acceptable, was wrong? Or that ambition has been dropped?    That it wouldn't be possible to completely "fix", is something we have understood I think.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:23 .

[Fredward]

bEVEsthda wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 If someone expects that we will spend out time trying to "fix" the dialogue system to satisfy those whose problems with it are fundamental,..

So the impression we got earlier, that some effort would be made to make wheel and voice more acceptable, was wrong? Or that ambition has been dropped? 

I don't think so. What I think Mr. Gaider meant was that some people want the same options that a silent protagonist would have, ie Origins with the lines being voiced exactly as they are as some people want complete control over their character. In other words the idea that lines will be voiced exactly as to ensure total control of the character is not something they are pursuing. At least that's what I got out of it.

That doesn't mean the paraphrases could be longer or more clear though, which is also an improvement. I personally can't stand hearing the same thing I just read spoken to me, makes me feel like I'm in kindergarden again where the teacher thought I didn't understand what I was reading. Also, it's boring and tedious. xp

[Brockololly]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think intent clarifications may work better. After all, a paraphrase that is vague in its words and is accompanied by an equally vague icon, such as the diamond to indicate 'charming' ...wtf?... is pretty horrible. I'm no longer deciding which choice I want to do for my character, I'm deciding what my choice through the dialogue wheel will result in my character saying.

If BioWare is truly intent on staying with a voiced PC, I'd hope they look at Alpha Protocol, The Walking Dead and Deus Ex: Human Revolution for ways to improve the experience. AP's dialogue works very well in just having the intent plus timed dialogue for a better cinematic experience. TWD works with the timed dialogue and better paraphrases plus more control over the player character in the cutscenes. Same with Deus Ex with the full text available, or at least having the actual dialogue part of the paraphrases plus the dialogue battles.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:31 .

[jillabender]

bEVEsthda wrote…

So the impression we got earlier, that some effort would be made to make wheel and voice more acceptable, was wrong? Or that ambition has been dropped? http://social.biowar...s/wondering.png That it wouldn't be possible to completely "fix", is something we have understood I think.

My impression is that Bioware recognizes that the dialogue wheel system needs work. Although I can't speak for Bioware, it sounds like they're willing to work on refining the system – they just feel that recreating certain aspects of the silent-PC style with a voiced protagonist simply isn't possible, and that trying to do so would take away from the advantages offered by a voiced PC. Of course, you're certainly free to disagree.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:33 .

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
I think it depends on what kind of control you're looking for. I can't help but think that anyone looking for the same kind of control over a voiced protagonist that they had over a silent one like the Warden will probably be disappointed.

I'd say this is correct. If someone expects that we will spend out time trying to "fix" the dialogue system to satisfy those whose problems with it are fundamental, especially by weakening the strengths of that approach, that's simply not going to happen.

So we're still stuck with not knowing what our character will say and effectively picking lines at random? Because I can't think of any strenght that could offset the fact that you're effectively asking for the player to guess the dialogue with useless -if not outright misleading - clues.

[David Gaider]

jillabender wrote...
My impression is that Bioware recognizes that the dialogue wheel system needs work. Although I can't speak for Bioware, it sounds like they're willing to work on refining the system – they just feel that recreating certain aspects of the silent-PC style with a voiced protagonist simply isn't possible, and that trying to do so would take away from the advantages offered by a voiced PC.

This is completely correct.

[MerinTB]

Brockololly wrote...
If BioWare is truly intent on staying with a voiced PC, I'd hope they look at Alpha Protocol, The Walking Dead and Deus Ex: Human Revolution for ways to improve the experience. AP's dialogue works very well in just having the intent plus timed dialogue for a better cinematic experience. TWD works with the timed dialogue and better paraphrases plus more control over the player character in the cutscenes. Same with Deus Ex with the full text available, or at least having the actual dialogue part of the paraphrases plus the dialogue battles.

Just when I'm working up the idiocy to engage this conversation, you go and bring Alpha Protocol into the mix and clam me up.

Damn you, AP, for making wheels, timers and intent acceptable to me.

[AmstradHero]

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
My impression is that Bioware recognizes that the dialogue wheel system needs work. Although I can't speak for Bioware, it sounds like they're willing to work on refining the system – they just feel that recreating certain aspects of the silent-PC style with a voiced protagonist simply isn't possible, and that trying to do so would take away from the advantages offered by a voiced PC.

This is completely correct.

MerinTB wrote...
Damn you, AP, for making wheels, timers and intent acceptable to me. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

What I love here is that we've got more than a few people who typically prefer an unvoiced protagonist except for the way it was done in Alpha Protocol. So, I'm curious to know what BioWare perceives as the greatest advantages offered by a voiced protagonist?

Personally, I think that not having a timed dialogue wheel and offering intent rather than actual lines/paraphrases results in a lot being lost in terms of roleplaying and cinematic presentation when it comes to voiced protagonists. (Based on previous responses, the cinematic presentation seems to be a big drawcard for BioWare's push to a voiced protagonist, though I've never seen it stated explicitly.)

How many people sat debating left and right whether to perform particular actions in the ME series or in DA2? I'd wager a lot. Gamers can and do specifically sit there thinking "hrm, I wonder what will happen if I do this?" In AP, you get none of that because you have to make a decision right away, so therefore you have to roleplay what you think you would do. No metagaming.  In addition, you get a smooth conversation flow that doesn't stop for a minute while they player makes up their mind. Lastly, and potentially even more importantly, it makes conversation feel like a more integrated part of gameplay because the player no longer gets to go "oh, it's a dialogue/cinematic, I can just kick back and relax because I'm not going to have to do anything."

[Cimeas]

AmstradHero wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
My impression is that Bioware recognizes that the dialogue wheel system needs work. Although I can't speak for Bioware, it sounds like they're willing to work on refining the system – they just feel that recreating certain aspects of the silent-PC style with a voiced protagonist simply isn't possible, and that trying to do so would take away from the advantages offered by a voiced PC.

This is completely correct.

MerinTB wrote...
Damn you, AP, for making wheels, timers and intent acceptable to me. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

What I love here is that we've got more than a few people who typically prefer an unvoiced protagonist except for the way it was done in Alpha Protocol. So, I'm curious to know what BioWare perceives as the greatest advantages offered by a voiced protagonist?

Personally, I think that not having a timed dialogue wheel and offering intent rather than actual lines/paraphrases results in a lot being lost in terms of roleplaying and cinematic presentation when it comes to voiced protagonists. (Based on previous responses, the cinematic presentation seems to be a big drawcard for BioWare's push to a voiced protagonist, though I've never seen it stated explicitly.)

How many people sat debating left and right whether to perform particular actions in the ME series or in DA2? I'd wager a lot. Gamers can and do specifically sit there thinking "hrm, I wonder what will happen if I do this?" In AP, you get none of that because you have to make a decision right away, so therefore you have to roleplay what you think you would do. No metagaming.  In addition, you get a smooth conversation flow that doesn't stop for a minute while they player makes up their mind. Lastly, and potentially even more importantly, it makes conversation feel like a more integrated part of gameplay because the player no longer gets to go "oh, it's a dialogue/cinematic, I can just kick back and relax because I'm not going to have to do anything."

See the problem with this is that you can just press the XBOX/Playstation button and it pauses the game automatically, giving you time to think.

[Fallstar]

The AP style timer could work well with allowing the player to choose dialogue in ambient party banter. Or even to select a line based on a quick glance at an intent rather than complete auto dialogue.

[addiction21]

AmstradHero wrote...

What I love here is that we've got more than a few people who typically prefer an unvoiced protagonist except for the way it was done in Alpha Protocol.

I was wondering where this cold front came from.

I can get behind more interactivity in cutscences (is that a word?) and full lines. Timers no unless theres a pause option. I know my keyboard has a pause button but the only game I ever known it to work in is Sins of a Solar Empire... maybe I just have forgotten.

Well back to keeping the pilot lights in hell clear of frost

[Cultist]

David Gaider wrote...
Sorry, folks, but we're not dropping the focus on cinematics. This is just what we do, and while it may not be everyone's cup of tea (and may lead to dramatic pronouncements regarding our prospects) it's something we think works. So while many things are up for discussion, this isn't one of them.

Yes, that worked perfectly for Dragon Age 2.
Also, i think lobotomy works!

[Sylvius the Mad]

jillabender wrote...

I think it depends on what kind of control you're looking for. I can't help but think that anyone looking for the same kind of control over a voiced protagonist that they had over a silent one like the Warden will probably be disappointed. However, someone who's willing to try a game that offers a new approach to player agency with a voiced protagonist might be satisfied with improvements to the dialogue wheel system. To be honest, I'm not quite sure yet which category I fall into – I'll have to wait for Dragon Age 3 to find out.

So far, the "new approach to player agency" has amounted to less player agency.

I'm really curious as to what they're doing to improve the dialogue system, but if they deliver a game that doesn't support player-designed character personalities, then I don't want it.

jillabender wrote...

My impression is that Bioware recognizes that the dialogue wheel system needs work. Although I can't speak for Bioware, it sounds like they're willing to work on refining the system – they just feel that recreating certain aspects of the silent-PC style with a voiced protagonist simply isn't possible, and that trying to do so would take away from the advantages offered by a voiced PC. Of course, you're certainly free to disagree.

I would agree that BioWare has no interest in reproducing the mechanics of the silent PC system (though it sounds like they did investigate the possibility of longer text pop-ups), but I don't think they're necessarily opposed to reproducing or approximating some of the silent PC's gameplay consequences.

Their voiced PC games so far have shown considerable range in the extent to which they prevent player control.  DA2 was extremely bad at it, but ME didn't miss by nearly as much.  I was probably 5 hours into ME before Shepard said something I deemed entirely out of character, but DA2 did it with the very first dialogue wheel event.  This range suggests that DA3 can do vastly better than DA2 did, even without any mechanical improvements.

[Jerrybnsn]

Cultist wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Sorry, folks, but we're not dropping the focus on cinematics. This is just what we do, and while it may not be everyone's cup of tea (and may lead to dramatic pronouncements regarding our prospects) it's something we think works. So while many things are up for discussion, this isn't one of them.

Yes, that worked perfectly for Dragon Age 2.
Also, i think lobotomy works!

I was about to say,....rpgs that are heavy on cinematics are FF and, now, Dragon Age 2.  Neither are anything to write home about.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DuskWarden wrote...

The AP style timer could work well with allowing the player to choose dialogue in ambient party banter. Or even to select a line based on a quick glance at an intent rather than complete auto dialogue.

No timers without an available pause.  Never mandatory timers.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .

[Fallstar]

addiction21 wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

What I love here is that we've got more than a few people who typically prefer an unvoiced protagonist except for the way it was done in Alpha Protocol.

I was wondering where this cold front came from.

I can get behind more interactivity in cutscences (is that a word?) and full lines. Timers no unless theres a pause option. I know my keyboard has a pause button but the only game I ever known it to work in is Sins of a Solar Empire... maybe I just have forgotten.

Well back to keeping the pilot lights in hell clear of frost

It's been made clear that the full dialogue system isn't coming back, so people try to find alternatives and improvements to the paraphrases and auto dialogue seen in DA2. I would prefer a set of choices and a timer to preserve 'cinematicism' (now a word) than a significant amount of auto dialogue which makes choices with little to no interaction from the player.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DuskWarden wrote...

It's been made clear that the full dialogue system isn't coming back, so people try to find alternatives and improvements to the paraphrases and auto dialogue seen in DA2. I would prefer a set of choices and a timer to preserve 'cinematicism' (now a word) than a significant amount of auto dialogue which makes choices with little to no interaction from the player.

Any time the game asks for my input, it should give me all the time I want to make that decision.  That should be a universal design rule for roleplaying games.

I would rather auto-dialogue, frankly, than quicktime events.

[FieryDove]

I dislike timers, timed missions/dialogue and mandatory mini-games.

That doesn't really help much I'm sure. Since I also think the wheel is ebil how about a nice octagon? Yes? No?

[Fredward]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No timers without an available pause.  Never mandatory timers.

Always timers without an available pause. Always mandatory timers.



Actually I'm totally ambivalent towards the existence of timers. I like mulling over difficult decisions (I must've gotten up and paced for like an hour at my first Dark Ritual) but I can see how it would help with immersion and whatnot. Also I wonder what someone would do IRL if they asked me a question and I just kinda stood there for 5 minutes before answering. XD

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No timers without an available pause.  Never mandatory timers.

To be clear, I said acceptable, not preferred.

AP was just so good at story and character that even with a timer and intent I still felt like Mike was my character in ways that Shepard never was.

[Fallstar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

It's been made clear that the full dialogue system isn't coming back, so people try to find alternatives and improvements to the paraphrases and auto dialogue seen in DA2. I would prefer a set of choices and a timer to preserve 'cinematicism' (now a word) than a significant amount of auto dialogue which makes choices with little to no interaction from the player.

Any time the game asks for my input, it should give me all the time I want to make that decision.  That should be a universal design rule for roleplaying games.

I would rather auto-dialogue, frankly, than quicktime events.

But at least you would have some input. In my eyes, that is preferable to none at all. Whilst the choice of having timed dialogue in place of auto dialogue in conversations and ambient banter or not having a timer would be superior, without the timer there would be no semblance of auto dialogue. Whilst that might be preferable, it sadly isn't the kind of game Bioware are making.

Timed dialogue in place of auto dialogue would be better, albeit not ideal, is basically what I'm saying.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Actually I'm totally ambivalent towards the existence of timers. I like mulling over difficult decisions (I must've gotten up and paced for like an hour at my first Dark Ritual) but I can see how it would help with immersion and whatnot.

I don't see how that would help with immersion at all.  It would just draw my attention to the UI, something the game should try really hard not to do.

This is why I argue against having different game modes.  Give us one interface for the entire game and let us work through it - taking it away, bringing it, changing it: these all just take me out of my character and back into the reality of a a gameplayer.

Also I wonder what someone would do IRL if they asked me a question and I just kinda stood there for 5 minutes before answering.

They wait for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DuskWarden wrote...

But at least you would have some input. In my eyes, that is preferable to none at all.

I'm hoping the auto-dialogue would be based on some input of mine, and then we could work on refining that mechanism.

But a timer is horribly broken by introducing realw-rod elements into the game.  My PC should not do the wrong thing because I panicked and pressed the wrong button.

[addiction21]

DuskWarden wrote...

It's been made clear that the full dialogue system isn't coming back, so people try to find alternatives and improvements to the paraphrases and auto dialogue seen in DA2. I would prefer a set of choices and a timer to preserve 'cinematicism' (now a word) than a significant amount of auto dialogue which makes choices with little to no interaction from the player.

I thought that was more of DAO's list and lines. What I was thinking of (and I havent actually played it so sorry if I am off) was how Alpha Protocol used the whell and provided more of the response. As opposed to the two or three word paraphrases.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...



Actually I'm totally ambivalent towards the existence of timers. I like mulling over difficult decisions (I must've gotten up and paced for like an hour at my first Dark Ritual) but I can see how it would help with immersion and whatnot. Also I wonder what someone would do IRL if they asked me a question and I just kinda stood there for 5 minutes before answering. XD

*shifty eyes*

Toggles fix everything!  

My real big concern is that even when I think I have a hour of free time something can (and usually does) come up. Phone call, someone coming over, I work from home as much as I do at sites or in the office, watching my niece or god kids.

A timer is not a deal breaker at any means for me but pause would be nice.