778 réponses à ce sujet

[Cimeas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything learnable is learnable from a book.


This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.   You are genuinely saying that everything in life can be learnt from a book.   Sure, you can find out about things from a book, but learning how to do them?    No way.   How about running, swimming, driving, sex?   I'm pretty sure you could read about how to have sex before having it for the first time, but you would still fail as everyone does.  Same with craftsmen.    My grandfather was a carpenter, and though you could read about forming the right shapes and pieces of wood with the tools, I highly doubt you could read the book, pick up a saw and craft a well-designed ornamental wardrobe.

Modifié par Cimeas, 18 juillet 2012 - 01:17 .

[Cimeas]

Exactly, I *love* the fact that combat is faster. I *hate* the fact that there's too few spells to be able to experiment.

I love the voiced protagonist. I *hate* that Hawke was a boring, sad person who could either be a dick, a sarcastic idiot who doesn't care about others' suffering, or a hopeless optimist who thinks everything will turn out 'just fine'.

[Pasquale1234]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, though, how many people really have the game ruined from having a voiced PC or the current combat system?

Probably more than you think.  There were quite a few people who cancelled their preorders or chose not to buy the game based on the demo - because they didn't accept the gameplay changes.

Personally, my issues with DA2 aren't its perceived flaws, but intentional design decisions and overall direction.  I understand that the voiced protag / dialog wheel / paraphrases enhances the experience for some players, but it also renders impossible the playstyle of other people.

Regardless of any other considerations - setting, story, other game mechanics - I have no interest in an RPG that does not support my playstyle and allow me to roleplay.

[Cimeas]

I do sometimes feel that the voice of Hawke/Shepard isn't what I want it to be. (Especially with Jennifer Hale's melodramatic over-acting.)

But the benefit is so great. Finally I feel like the PC is an actual character. No longer am I 'looking in' on conversations, but I'm actively part of them. In my head, I can 'see' the character much more clearly now because I know what they sound like.

Voiced PC does so much imho. You can't have everyone voiced except yourself, it's too jarring.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I considered DA2 to allow me to roleplay just fine; certainly not less than DAO. Either way, you're restricted to saying just a few things in any given situation. And with the dialogue wheel, you can be generally sure that asking questions won't cut you off from asking other questions.

I also never considered Hawke to be boring, but eh.

[Pasquale1234]

Cimeas wrote...

I do sometimes feel that the voice of Hawke/Shepard isn't what I want it to be. (Especially with Jennifer Hale's melodramatic over-acting.)

But the benefit is so great. Finally I feel like the PC is an actual character. No longer am I 'looking in' on conversations, but I'm actively part of them. In my head, I can 'see' the character much more clearly now because I know what they sound like.

Voiced PC does so much imho. You can't have everyone voiced except yourself, it's too jarring.

You can "see" the character because s/he's right there on screen, fully animated and doing things that may or may not be consistent with the character you thought you were playing.

What is jarring to me is when the character I am supposed to be roleplaying acts:
1.  With no input from me
2.  In ways that are surprising, unexpected, incoherent, and character breaking.

Hawke is a fully developed, voiced, animated character on his/her own, and needs nothing from the player.  Pretty much like any other NPC.

ETA:

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I considered DA2 to allow me to roleplay just fine; certainly not less than DAO. Either way, you're restricted to saying just a few things in any given situation. And with the dialogue wheel, you can be generally sure that asking questions won't cut you off from asking other questions.

I also never considered Hawke to be boring, but eh.

Like I said it enhances rather than prohibits your playstyle.  DAO allowed both playstyles, DA2 does not.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 18 juillet 2012 - 01:42 .

[Xilizhra]

You can "see" the character because s/he's right there on screen, fully animated and doing things that may or may not be consistent with the character you thought you were playing.

Just... not talking. It's like driving a mobile, combat-capable camera around. There's little sense of character and you have to completely invent it with no help from the game whatsoever.

Hawke is a fully developed, voiced, animated character on his/her own, and needs nothing from the player. Pretty much like any other NPC.

Except for the need for you to play/make decisions/set personality...

[Pasquale1234]

Xilizhra wrote...

Just... not talking. It's like driving a mobile, combat-capable camera around. There's little sense of character and you have to completely invent it with no help from the game whatsoever.

Which is exactly what I seek in a cRPG.

Hawke is a fully developed, voiced, animated character on his/her own, and needs nothing from the player. Pretty much like any other NPC.

Except for the need for you to play/make decisions/set personality...

Hawke's personality and behaviors were fully defined by the VAs and animators.

I did direct the character at times, but that is not what I consider to be roleplaying, more along the lines of directing a choose-your-own-adventure movie.

Like I said before - different playstyles, different strokes. But to get back to your original point, fixing DA2's perceived flaws is not going to bring back the people who jumped ship due to the intentional design decisions and new direction.

[AkiKishi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, though, how many people really have the game ruined from having a voiced PC or the current combat system? To me, it seems that the flaws of DA2 that the ones who liked DA2 pointed out were compounding issues that those who liked DAO more could still have stood to play DA2 if they didn't have said flaws. If those can be fixed, I think most people would come back, and many of the ones who wouldn't wouldn't have come back anyway.

Biowares fault for trying to please everyone or maybe trick everyone into buying. Review embargos generally indicate something shady (like ME3's ending). Witcher2 is very upfront about what it offers, if people don't like that, well they won't buy it. But it means that you don't get hordes of disapointed people flooding your message boards and selling the game the weekend after release and flooding the used sales market.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Which is exactly what I seek in a cRPG.

I find it greatly immersion-breaking, so... yeah.

Like I said before - different playstyles, different strokes. But to get back to your original point, fixing DA2's perceived flaws is not going to bring back the people who jumped ship due to the intentional design decisions and new direction.

So be it, then. Going back now would just look schizophrenic and probably would be handled poorly, in such a way as to please no one.

[batlin]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it greatly immersion-breaking, so... yeah.

Do you also find books immersion-breaking? Because you DO talk, you just select it in text.

[AkiKishi]

batlin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it greatly immersion-breaking, so... yeah.

Do you also find books immersion-breaking? Because you DO talk, you just select it in text.

Xilizhra wrote...

Just... not talking. It's like driving a mobile, combat-capable camera around. There's little sense of character and you have to completely invent it with no help from the game whatsoever.

Which is a fair point and exactly what you get if you don't want to play the "imaginiation game".

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything learnable is learnable from a book.

This opinion pretty much sums up everything you need to know about Sylvius.

[Monica83]

Well for me they are just removing roleplay elements from roleplay games and the post of the bioware folk here confirmed
on my eyes....

That bioware now is less relevant in making rpg and they are focusing now in cinematic action adventure game...

Go on bioware and continue to down your reputation...

With dragon age 2 and those "design decisions" i closed with dragon age franchise... If Dragon age 3 will be a refined dragon age 2 you will not have my money...

No metter how your marketing lie about it...

In past Bioware was professional and i was loyal to it...

Now it's like if them try to sell gold painted coal telling everyone is gold....And this is unprofessional...

[Maclimes]

If DA3 takes what DA2 tries to do, but does it right, I'll be quite pleased.

I care more about story, character, and personality than I do about math, numbers, and tactics.

The one thing we all tend to agree on, however, is Player Agency.

People all over these boards like and dislike different elements of DA:O and DA2. It goes back and forth, round and round, over and over. But there is one thing that pretty much everyone agrees on: More choices, and more choices that matter. If they correct that aspect, the rest is just details.

[Pasquale1234]

Maclimes wrote...

If DA3 takes what DA2 tries to do, but does it right, I'll be quite pleased.

I care more about story, character, and personality than I do about math, numbers, and tactics.

The one thing we all tend to agree on, however, is Player Agency.

People all over these boards like and dislike different elements of DA:O and DA2. It goes back and forth, round and round, over and over. But there is one thing that pretty much everyone agrees on: More choices, and more choices that matter. If they correct that aspect, the rest is just details.

If your idea of choices that matter includes being able to control the protag, I would agree with you.

Because the most important aspect to me is not story, characters, combat, or any of the other details.  It's whether I can control the character well enough to feel like I am actually role-playing.  The rest is just gravy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Paraphrase - unless you are the type that speaks without thinking, what you say should never come as a suprise. 

This is the thing that bothers me most about DA2, and I don't understand what about this feature would be fun for anyone.  I just don't get it.

If this is an intentional design feature - that the player not know what the PC is going to say - then I'm done.

[bEVEsthda]

Cimeas wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything learnable is learnable from a book.

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.   You are genuinely saying that everything in life can be learnt from a book.   Sure, you can find out about things from a book, but learning how to do them?    No way.   How about running, swimming, driving, sex?   I'm pretty sure you could read about how to have sex before having it for the first time, but you would still fail as everyone does.  Same with craftsmen.    My grandfather was a carpenter, and though you could read about forming the right shapes and pieces of wood with the tools, I highly doubt you could read the book, pick up a saw and craft a well-designed ornamental wardrobe.

Since St Mad is obviously (at least to some of us) not stupid, it might be appropriate to not make long leaps out into a wild universe of far flung interpretations.

To learn something, is normally not meant to be the exactly same as developing a physical or mental skill, to any certain level. That always takes training, physical or mental. But how  to train that skill is a learning matter.

The only reason I would not agree with St Mad, is that all books have not been written yet.

Yes, you can learn to run from a book. Yes, you can learn how to swim from a book. Yes, you can learn how to drive from a book. Yes, you can learn how to do sex from a book. Yes, you can learn how to do carpentry from a book.

You cannot, however, train your level of skill from a book. But you can learn all the small details and understanding of how to train that, faster and better, than you could just by trying on your own.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:17 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cimeas wrote...

I love the voiced protagonist. I *hate* that Hawke was a boring, sad person who could either be a dick, a sarcastic idiot who doesn't care about others' suffering, or a hopeless optimist who thinks everything will turn out 'just fine'.

What if the thing you hate is a consequence of the thing you love?

I'm curious, though.  What about the voiced protagonist do you love?  What are its positive characteristics?  What did it do for the game, from your point of view?

I've never really asked anyone this question before.

I see the superficial benefits of the voice - that all the characters in the scene are modelled to the same degree, and that different types of scenes can be staged - but the other consequences of the voice are such that overall the voice is a negative feature for me.

On balance, you seem to like the voice, despite a negative consequence that you purport to hate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cimeas wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything learnable is learnable from a book.

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.   You are genuinely saying that everything in life can be learnt from a book.   Sure, you can find out about things from a book, but learning how to do them?    No way.   How about running, swimming, driving, sex?

The mechanics of all of those things can be thoroughly described in text.

I'm pretty sure you could read about how to have sex before having it for the first time, but you would still fail as everyone does.

It's awfully hard to fail at that.

Same with craftsmen.    My grandfather was a carpenter, and though you could read about forming the right shapes and pieces of wood with the tools, I highly doubt you could read the book, pick up a saw and craft a well-designed ornamental wardrobe.

With sufficiently detailed instructions, of course you could.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Just... not talking. It's like driving a mobile, combat-capable camera around. There's little sense of character and you have to completely invent it with no help from the game whatsoever.

Which is exactly what I seek in a cRPG.

Because that's how tabletop games work.

I invite Xilizhra to try playing a tabletop RPG without putting any effort into designing the character's personality.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:23 .

[jackofalltrades456]

SWTOR seems to be the perfect example of why they need to drop this moar cinematic mentality. I keep hearing how expensive that game was to develop and that it was in the Guinness book for "Most Voice Acting". Why do I have the feeling these two are connected in someway....

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:37 .

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I invite Xilizhra to try playing a tabletop RPG without putting any effort into designing the character's personality.

That's true. That's what I DON'T want in my video games, though. If I wanted to play a PnP, I would play a PnP. In fact, I do! I love them! But I want my video games to provide an experience that PnP cannot provide. To me, that's the point. 

[Pasquale1234]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I invite Xilizhra to try playing a tabletop RPG without putting any effort into designing the character's personality.

That's true. That's what I DON'T want in my video games, though. If I wanted to play a PnP, I would play a PnP. In fact, I do! I love them! But I want my video games to provide an experience that PnP cannot provide. To me, that's the point. 

For me, the point is to emulate the PnP experience at my convenience, without having to schedule and assemble a group of other players.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I invite Xilizhra to try playing a tabletop RPG without putting any effort into designing the character's personality.

That's true. That's what I DON'T want in my video games, though. If I wanted to play a PnP, I would play a PnP. In fact, I do! I love them! But I want my video games to provide an experience that PnP cannot provide. To me, that's the point. 

PnP cannot provide that experience without having other players.  That's the difference.  CRPGs allow roleplayuing without the need for other people.

The roleplaying isn't any different.  Roleplaying is roleplaying.  Anything that deviates from tabletop-style roleplaying is a step in the wrong direction.