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Get 'Our old Bioware' back: Drop focus on cinematics


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#601
AkiKishi

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Some of us of the older generations see that technology as a detriment
rather than a plus, because there is a difference in expectation and
preference.


I think that's .... a little oversimplified.

My biggest issue is that the technology is not yet mature enough to provide all of the features I expect from an RPG (in general, or DA in particular) without having to sacrifice some things that are much more important to me than visual presentation.  I very much look forward to the time when we'll be playing all of these games in virtual reality.

Meanwhile, in order to usher in this technology in its current state, many other sacrifices have to be made.  Since the things that are being sacrificed are things that I value much, much more than the video presentation replacing them, I view the current trend as a huge loss, not an evolution, revolution, or improvement.  IOW, I'd rather wait until the technology catches up.


But if you do not try to implement the technology how do you know when it has caught up? It takes a company or someone willing to push the envelope of the technology in different ways. Also what you see as a detriment others see as a plus  that technolgy is pushing further. Like I said it is a matter of expectation and preference.



I don't think that's the case anyway. What technology has been doing is filling in the blank spaces that used to exist in roleplaying games.

If it's not there , you can imagine it. A threat could be delivered in a loud voice or a hushed wisper. Once it's voice acted it's fixed as one or the other.
A character could be cold or angry but a cinematic will fix it as one or the other.

This is why I support games like Witcher and Deus Ex.

#602
Sylvius the Mad

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BobSmith101 wrote...

I could play PST by rolling a dice and it would still work.

Yes, you could.  If that's how you decide to generate your input, you can do that.

Not something you can do in PnP that is a creative input.

Absolutely you could do that in PnP.  Why do you think you couldn't do that in PnP?

We are talking about two different things here. I'm talking about what the game presents and you are talking about what you can do in your head.

I'm talking about the ways in which the player can direct the character, regardless of whether it's in your head on on the screen.

I do not care whether the game contains cinematics.  I do not care whether the PC is voiced.

I care about the level of control I have over the PC.  If cinematics enhance that, then those cinematics are good.  If cinematics diminish that, then those cinematics are bad.

#603
AkiKishi

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Absolutely you could do that in PnP.  Why do you think you couldn't do that in PnP?


Because in PnP you don't have a set of pre-written responses. You can't randomise between things that don't exist.

See post aboive seems to cover the rest.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .


#604
Pasquale1234

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Realmzmaster wrote...

But if you do not try to implement the technology how do you know when it has caught up? It takes a company or someone willing to push the envelope of the technology in different ways. Also what you see as a detriment others see as a plus  that technolgy is pushing further. Like I said it is a matter of expectation and preference.


It's always a balancing act.

In my industry, technology decisions are based on system and functional requirements, which are well known prior to project launch.  Products intended for mass-consumption, especially those that are built using iterative processes (which I believe BioWare does) are a whole different ball of wax.

Generally accepted software engineering practice is to use the technology that best suits your project's requirements (although the reality is that we're often stuck with legacy stuff...).  Rapid technological advancements mean that the short, medium, and longer-term views of a product's lifecycle are often vastly different.  Regardless, if a certain technology doesn't support your project's requirements, and allow you to deliver all of the expected feaures, you need to find something else that will.

The path that BioWare chose was to discard some features to shift focus to the cinematic experience.  Frankly, these discussions of technology really aren't all that pertinent.  DAO was a cinematic game, as were many others that came before it.  The technology isn't new; it's just been very liberally applied in DA2, at the expense of some other features.

Virtual reality is very appealing to me, but I would guess that folks who are loving this cinematic thing might not be terribly interested in it - since they seem to enjoy watching the characters, and virtual reality play would have you actually *being* the character.  Like we always say, different strokes.

ETA:

BobSmith101 wrote...

I don't think that's the case anyway. What technology has been doing is filling in the blank spaces that used to exist in roleplaying games.

If it's not there , you can imagine it. A threat could be delivered in a loud voice or a hushed wisper. Once it's voice acted it's fixed as one or the other.
A character could be cold or angry but a cinematic will fix it as one or the other.


Exactly.  Those blank spaces were there for the player to fill in and tell the story.

Writers, VAs, animators, and technology are doing all of that for us now.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:18 .


#605
Sylvius the Mad

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BobSmith101 wrote...

I don't think that's the case anyway. What technology has been doing is filling in the blank spaces that used to exist in roleplaying games.

The blank spaces were the means by which player control was offered.  That's not the only way to offer player control.

But the player control is paramount.  Without player control, what is the point of the player playing the game at all?  What does the player bring to the experience?  If everyone gets the same character and the same story, why am I wasting my time on it when literally anyone could achieve the same result?

If it's not there , you can imagine it. A threat could be delivered in a loud voice or a hushed wisper. Once it's voice acted it's fixed as one or the other.
A character could be cold or angry but a cinematic will fix it as one or the other.

This is why I support games like Witcher and Deus Ex.

I refuse to accept that the new technology necessarily limits game design like that.  Yes,so far that's the effect cinematics have had.  That's effect the PC voice has had.  But that's not mandatory.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because in PnP you don't have a set of pre-written responses. You can't randomise between things that don't exist.

You could create the table yourself, and then randomise it.  I knew a DM once who designed game worlds like that.  "Who controls this territory?"  *rolls dice*  "Orcs!"

But even so, just because the game doesn't force active roleplaying doesn't prevent the game from being an RPG.  The problem is when games prohibit active roleplaying.

PST allows active roleplaying.  That is sufficient.  No game should force everyone to play it in the same way.

#606
Maclimes

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I refuse to accept that the new technology necessarily limits game design like that.  Yes,so far that's the effect cinematics have had.  That's effect the PC voice has had.  But that's not mandatory.


I think we're just in a weird place right now, especially for RPGs. Designers and developers are trying to figure out how to marry a true RPG experience with modern technology, voice actors, and cinematics.

DA2 was a speed-bump on that road, but it doesn't mean we're on the wrong road.

#607
Pasquale1234

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I refuse to accept that the new technology necessarily limits game design like that.  Yes,so far that's the effect cinematics have had.  That's effect the PC voice has had.  But that's not mandatory.


This is part of the pain of trying to adapt a product to fit with some 'must have' technology.  Something that will restore full player control may be just around he bend - but by the time we get there, expectations will have shifted (again), and there will be another painful adaptive process to go through.

Technology is supposed to be a tool; the means, not the end.

If the technology you're trying to adopt forces you to change your apple to an orange.... oh, never mind.

#608
AkiKishi

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Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I refuse to accept that the new technology necessarily limits game design like that.  Yes,so far that's the effect cinematics have had.  That's effect the PC voice has had.  But that's not mandatory.


I think we're just in a weird place right now, especially for RPGs. Designers and developers are trying to figure out how to marry a true RPG experience with modern technology, voice actors, and cinematics.

DA2 was a speed-bump on that road, but it doesn't mean we're on the wrong road.


Which really can't be done. A blank space has infinate possibilities or can just be a blank space. The most effective way as I see it is to go the Witcher/Deus Ex route,distil what a roleplaying session accomplishes from an outside looking in perspective and design around that.

It's the only solution that appears to work without the conflict of "My character would not do that"! 

#609
Realmzmaster

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Pasquale1234 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I refuse to accept that the new technology necessarily limits game design like that.  Yes,so far that's the effect cinematics have had.  That's effect the PC voice has had.  But that's not mandatory.


This is part of the pain of trying to adapt a product to fit with some 'must have' technology.  Something that will restore full player control may be just around he bend - but by the time we get there, expectations will have shifted (again), and there will be another painful adaptive process to go through.

Technology is supposed to be a tool; the means, not the end.

If the technology you're trying to adopt forces you to change your apple to an orange.... oh, never mind.


If the gaming public expects a particular piece of technology to be implemented because the competition is making use of that technology ( to achieve an advantage) the game the company  makes better be off the chain to compensate for the lack of that technology. Otherwise the company runs the risk of having its games look outdated, behind the times and stuck in the past. While that make make some gamers happy it will make others simply ignore your product. 

If the future audience ignores the product there is not growth path for the company. It may be able to maintain itself for a while on its established fanbase but even the established fanbase expects the company to imrpove its product and offer a better experience.

Whether that be through cinematics, a voice protagonist, branching storylines, player agency etc. There has to be some way to grabbed the gaming public's interest. I do not mean just the established fanbase.

If the public wants to see new and better technology implemented then yes you may have to turn that apple into an orange.

I can ascertain what many on the forum want and do not want, but I would be hard pressed to extrapolate that to Bioware's entire fanbase.

The forum tends to attract the diehards who want to sit down and discuss the different games (get into the story, discuss the ultimate build etc)  that Bioware makes. I would not call it representative of the entire fanbase.
Even among the diehards opinions vary all over the map. There are some who think DAO and DA2 are too cinematic. There are those who think DAO and DA2 are not cinematic enough. There are those who think DAO is cinematic enough and DA2 is too cinematic.

No matter what DA3 does someone is not going to be happy. It will be up to Bioware to minimize the unhappiness. So for some gamers DA3 will have to be very, very good to fantastic.  YMMV.

#610
Sylvius the Mad

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Maclimes wrote...

I think we're just in a weird place right now, especially for RPGs. Designers and developers are trying to figure out how to marry a true RPG experience with modern technology, voice actors, and cinematics.

DA2 was a speed-bump on that road, but it doesn't mean we're on the wrong road.

Though given the size of the speed-bump, I think perhaps the new approach was not yet ready for prime-time.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

This is part of the pain of trying to adapt a product to fit with some 'must have' technology.  Something that will restore full player control may be just around he bend - but by the time we get there, expectations will have shifted (again), and there will be another painful adaptive process to go through.

Technology is supposed to be a tool; the means, not the end.

If the technology you're trying to adopt forces you to change your apple to an orange.... oh, never mind.

I was recently involved in a big software purchasing decision.  Many vendors came to my office telling me what benefits their software would provide me, and even how I could change my business practices in order to use their software better.  I told most of them to go away.

Because I don't want to adapt my business practices to suit some software package.  I want to adapt their software packase to suit my business practices.  I eventually settled on the package that allowed me the greatest control over how it worked, with the ability to get inside and modify it as I saw fit, and work around any of its features I didn't like - particularly reporting features, which I find are often woefully underdocumented in business software, and are generated by processes that are kept secret (thus making the reports useless - if I don't know what's being measured, I can't know what weight to grant those measurements).

This is the same way I approach roleplaying games.  I play in a particular way.  How can I make this game work within that constraint?  Software developers (and their marketing departments) cannot know what benefits their software will provide me, because they don't know how I'm going to use it.  Software development is the very best example of Death of Author I have ever seen.  Once I get that collection of code, I can do with it whatever I like, and the value of that code to me is determined by whether it does the thing I want it to do, not whether it does the thing the designer intended.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which really can't be done.

We don't have anywhere near enough information to support that conclusion.

#611
Pasquale1234

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Whether that be through cinematics, a voice protagonist, branching storylines, player agency etc. There has to be some way to grabbed the gaming public's interest. I do not mean just the established fanbase.


I still think the best way to draw interest is to simply make a really good game.  DAO and Skyrim both exceeded expectations, despite their more limited use of technologies that some folks see as being oh-so-desirable.  Who would have ever imagined the "Angry Birds" phenomenon?  Apparently, something about that game appeals to a vast number of people.

Attracting new customers is certainly a worthwhile goal, but if you're losing previous customers at an equivalent rate, you're not making much headway.  It's a lot cheaper and easier to keep an existing customer than it is to acquire a new one.

As I've been saying in the last few posts, the only technology that should matter is the technology that allows you to accomplish your goals.  Cinematic sequences are not a new addition to their games; the only thing that's different is the removal of other features to accommodate more of them.

#612
wowpwnslol

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Cinematics should be used sparingly. After all, they don't actually net extra replayability. People just skip them on the second play through. Game shouldn't be a movie in any case. If I wanted to see a movie, I'd go to the cinema.

#613
Realmzmaster

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Pasquale1234 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Whether that be through cinematics, a voice protagonist, branching storylines, player agency etc. There has to be some way to grabbed the gaming public's interest. I do not mean just the established fanbase.


I still think the best way to draw interest is to simply make a really good game.  DAO and Skyrim both exceeded expectations, despite their more limited use of technologies that some folks see as being oh-so-desirable.  Who would have ever imagined the "Angry Birds" phenomenon?  Apparently, something about that game appeals to a vast number of people.

Attracting new customers is certainly a worthwhile goal, but if you're losing previous customers at an equivalent rate, you're not making much headway.  It's a lot cheaper and easier to keep an existing customer than it is to acquire a new one.

As I've been saying in the last few posts, the only technology that should matter is the technology that allows you to accomplish your goals.  Cinematic sequences are not a new addition to their games; the only thing that's different is the removal of other features to accommodate more of them.


But then on the flipside you have the Witcher 2 which also exceed expectations and made use of the technology including developing a new engine. That is one of the games DA2 was compared.  Also making a good game is not always enough. A lot of good games have been commercial failures. PST  is acclaimed as a good  almost great game but failed financially.  Arcanum of Steamworks & Magick Obscura falls into the same boat. Many a good game has failed financially. So it is more than making a better mouse trap.

#614
jds1bio

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Realmzmaster wrote...

But then on the flipside you have the Witcher 2 which also exceed expectations and made use of the technology including developing a new engine. That is one of the games DA2 was compared.  Also making a good game is not always enough. A lot of good games have been commercial failures. PST  is acclaimed as a good  almost great game but failed financially.  Arcanum of Steamworks & Magick Obscura falls into the same boat. Many a good game has failed financially. So it is more than making a better mouse trap.


People hail PST as an all-time great RPG, but at the time did almost nothing to help ensure that many more copies would be sold.

For the next Dragon Age:

- Lose the MMO quest markers and loot

- Make a single player and multiplayer like Mass Effect 3, except ditch any notions of EMS or scouring for resources.  If you want multiplayer to affect single player, then at least allow people to achieve abilities and special items either via a multiplayer quest, or a single-player side-quest.

- No fetch or "kill 20 of these, then we'll talk" quests.  Each and every quest should meaningfully advance the plot, the lore, or specialize the player-character's build (i.e. not just experience points).

Now I disagree on the cinematics focus.  Still, having to click on four or five items in a dialogue wheel just to gain some info and watch some scenes does lack one important thing - GAMEPLAY.  Each one of those conversation items should be replaced by something that involves gameplay.  In other words, your primary interactions and conversations with characters should be quests unto themselves.  Even if you are just following a character from place to place in a house, or helping them forge a sword, or helping them cast a magic spell - these are more involving and meaningful than just clicking through dialogue "options".

Modifié par jds1bio, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .


#615
Sylvius the Mad

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Realmzmaster wrote...

But then on the flipside you have the Witcher 2 which also exceed expectations and made use of the technology including developing a new engine. That is one of the games DA2 was compared.  Also making a good game is not always enough. A lot of good games have been commercial failures. PST  is acclaimed as a good  almost great game but failed financially.  Arcanum of Steamworks & Magick Obscura falls into the same boat. Many a good game has failed financially. So it is more than making a better mouse trap.

The rise of digital distribution has likely expanded the range of what a successful game can be.  Released now, I think a game like Arcanum would do quite well.  Throw it on Steam and GOG and watch it fly out the door.

If you want to sell boxed copies and move 2 million+ units, yes, I can see how Arcanum would fail.  But that's an unrealistic goal for anything but the most mainstream of games,

#616
Realmzmaster

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

But then on the flipside you have the Witcher 2 which also exceed expectations and made use of the technology including developing a new engine. That is one of the games DA2 was compared.  Also making a good game is not always enough. A lot of good games have been commercial failures. PST  is acclaimed as a good  almost great game but failed financially.  Arcanum of Steamworks & Magick Obscura falls into the same boat. Many a good game has failed financially. So it is more than making a better mouse trap.

The rise of digital distribution has likely expanded the range of what a successful game can be.  Released now, I think a game like Arcanum would do quite well.  Throw it on Steam and GOG and watch it fly out the door.

If you want to sell boxed copies and move 2 million+ units, yes, I can see how Arcanum would fail.  But that's an unrealistic goal for anything but the most mainstream of games,


Arcanum is on GOG for $5.99 and PST is $9.99 and neither is flying out the door.

#617
Sir JK

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Regarding the blank spaces that many rpgs used to have (or in some cases, still do). To my understanding they were frequently a result of lacking technology rather than a deliberate design element, so they were very seldom actually intentional. I've also also read that they're quite cost inefficient, being rather closely behind non-blank spaces in terms of development and that's it's cheaper to fill them rather than work around them. Though I'm not sure of the accurancy of that last sentence.

Regardless, they do offer more control yes. But the control you gain by them, while valuable for certain playstyles, is exclusive. That is to say that whatever you fill them with does not matter as far as the rest of the narrative is concerned. Sort of like a book that leaves a page free for you to write or draw anything you like but then moves on as if that never happened.
This is not saying that such blanks are not valuable in a roleplaying game, after all it is a fundamental aspect of it that the player has a hand in creating the narrative. But it will never be inclusive (at least until computers are as smart as we are), the ingame narrative will never react to or remark whatever it was you filled it with.

So while the advantage is unparalleled control over the character, the downside is that these aspects of the character cannot be included, challenged and expanded upon within the narrative itself (unless it does provide opportunities to express the same things elsewhere). These views, traits and quirks are detached from the world. They may exist at the player's discretion, but cannot be interacted with. If I imagine my character to have wings but the story takes place in cramped underground tunnels, then it doesn't really matter that I do have wings.

What filling these spaces allow is to provide the means to include the optional aspects into the narrative itself. They most certainly will limit your options (just like a dialogue system will be a limit compared to completely imagining what your character says) but provide the means for the narrative to include it. A character who expresses a view in one of these blanks cannot have that view confronted and tested, but if the blank has been filled they could (assuming of course that the option for that view exist).

There is of course a fine line to walk. DA2 did not handle this particularly elegantly I'm readily willing to admit. Set up too rigid narrative and then the choices we have are too few and too small, set it up too losely and expression goes toward the limited.
And as we've seen countless times already, preferences matters a lot for the individuals entertainment. If you're one of those that favour creation over expression, then the blanks will seem more valuable than to someone (such as myself) that values the ability to express the character highly.

Ideally, there is a way to develop a game that accomodates both preferences. Given the popularity of TW2 and hailing it as a very succesful rpg, this seems indeed to be the case (it is after all, very cinematical and very expressive). There's also lessons to be learned from Skyrim too, I feel. The beginning, right after character creation, is very cinematic in approach but also lends the player character a lot of control over his/her character. While there are many things that cannot easily be transfered from one game to the other, that sequence is one I feel one could look into and take a few lessons from.

That said, I think it is important that player agency is priority number one when designing the cinematics of a scene. Full control is perhaps not quite a realistic aspiration, but keeping it in mind and letting the player tell a large part of the story is very important I feel. I am convinced that cinematics can be designed to accomodate and technology allows this, to an extent at least. It is probably more difficult, but I think it is a worthwhile endeavour.

#618
NeoVassal

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I've been playing DA:O again and I just need to say this: I miss the many conversation options. A lot of them are funny and well-written - you can give your Warden a more realistic personality then respond angry, respond funny/be lame, or be neutral/good, or those sometimes creepy flirting options. In DA:O you can be everything from cocky, sarcastic, to mindless blood rage.

I just miss stuff like this because I'm old and stuck in the video game past, I guess. I didn't want to make a new topic for my old geezer complaining so I posted it here. Sorry all, continue with the conversations.

#619
AkiKishi

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which really can't be done.

We don't have anywhere near enough information to support that conclusion.


We do. But some people can't or won't accept it.

Sir JK wrote...

Regarding the blank spaces that many rpgs used to have (or in some cases, still do). To my understanding they were frequently a result of lacking technology rather than a deliberate design element, so they were very seldom actually intentional. I've also also read that they're quite cost inefficient, being rather closely behind non-blank spaces in terms of development and that's it's cheaper to fill them rather than work around them. Though I'm not sure of the accurancy of that last sentence. 


I think as a roleplayer when you see a blank space you fill it with something. I see it as a sort of happy accident that games of old made that possible because of lack of detail rather than something that was actually planned.

Blank spaces should in theory not have a cost. But they are just blank spaces what the end user does with them is on the end user. It's like making a movie, putting a dotted line where the lead actor is and telling the audience how great it is to be able to imagine what they look and sound like.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:07 .


#620
Sylvius the Mad

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Arcanum is on GOG for $5.99 and PST is $9.99 and neither is flying out the door.

I didn't say they could be released 10 years ago and would still be flying ot the door.

#621
Sylvius the Mad

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Sir JK wrote...

Regarding the blank spaces that many rpgs used to have (or in some cases, still do). To my understanding they were frequently a result of lacking technology rather than a deliberate design element, so they were very seldom actually intentional. I've also also read that they're quite cost inefficient, being rather closely behind non-blank spaces in terms of development and that's it's cheaper to fill them rather than work around them. Though I'm not sure of the accurancy of that last sentence.

Regardless, they do offer more control yes. But the control you gain by them, while valuable for certain playstyles, is exclusive. That is to say that whatever you fill them with does not matter as far as the rest of the narrative is concerned. Sort of like a book that leaves a page free for you to write or draw anything you like but then moves on as if that never happened.
This is not saying that such blanks are not valuable in a roleplaying game, after all it is a fundamental aspect of it that the player has a hand in creating the narrative. But it will never be inclusive (at least until computers are as smart as we are), the ingame narrative will never react to or remark whatever it was you filled it with.

So while the advantage is unparalleled control over the character, the downside is that these aspects of the character cannot be included, challenged and expanded upon within the narrative itself (unless it does provide opportunities to express the same things elsewhere). These views, traits and quirks are detached from the world. They may exist at the player's discretion, but cannot be interacted with. If I imagine my character to have wings but the story takes place in cramped underground tunnels, then it doesn't really matter that I do have wings.

What filling these spaces allow is to provide the means to include the optional aspects into the narrative itself. They most certainly will limit your options (just like a dialogue system will be a limit compared to completely imagining what your character says) but provide the means for the narrative to include it. A character who expresses a view in one of these blanks cannot have that view confronted and tested, but if the blank has been filled they could (assuming of course that the option for that view exist).

There is of course a fine line to walk. DA2 did not handle this particularly elegantly I'm readily willing to admit. Set up too rigid narrative and then the choices we have are too few and too small, set it up too losely and expression goes toward the limited.
And as we've seen countless times already, preferences matters a lot for the individuals entertainment. If you're one of those that favour creation over expression, then the blanks will seem more valuable than to someone (such as myself) that values the ability to express the character highly.

Ideally, there is a way to develop a game that accomodates both preferences. Given the popularity of TW2 and hailing it as a very succesful rpg, this seems indeed to be the case (it is after all, very cinematical and very expressive). There's also lessons to be learned from Skyrim too, I feel. The beginning, right after character creation, is very cinematic in approach but also lends the player character a lot of control over his/her character. While there are many things that cannot easily be transfered from one game to the other, that sequence is one I feel one could look into and take a few lessons from.

That said, I think it is important that player agency is priority number one when designing the cinematics of a scene. Full control is perhaps not quite a realistic aspiration, but keeping it in mind and letting the player tell a large part of the story is very important I feel. I am convinced that cinematics can be designed to accomodate and technology allows this, to an extent at least. It is probably more difficult, but I think it is a worthwhile endeavour.

First, whether the blank spaces were intentional is irrelevant.  They were there, and they supported a popular playstyle.  That BioWare didn't know they were supporting that playstyle doesn't change the fact that they were.

Second, your argument sounds stronger than it is because you're using the world narrative imprecisely.  You say that the player needs to have a hand in crafting the narrative (and I agree), but then you say that the player's creations that fill the blank spaces aren't included or expanded upon within the narrative.  If the word narrative means the same thing in both of those statements, then you've just contradicted yourself.  But they don't refer to the same thing.

When you're talking about the narrative the player crafts, you're talking about the emergent narrative.  When you're talking about the pre-written narrative that doesn't respond to the player's inventions, you're talking about the authored narrative.  By failing to differentiate between the two, you've created the illusion that the blank spaces are self-defeating, because the narrative they help the player create is them unresponsive to he player.

But that's not true.  Those are two different narratives.

The question is, which narrative is more important?  Which narrative should take precedence in a roleplaying game?  And I think you've answered that question.  As you say, " it is a fundamental aspect of [a roleplaying game] that the player has a hand in creating the narrative ."  If this emergent narrative is a "fundamental aspect" of a roleplaying game, then it is the emergent narrative that should take precedence.

What BioWare has begun doing is granting explicit precedence to the authored narrative, at the expense of the emergent narrative.  That's where they are going wrong.  That's where they're limiting roleplaying.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 juillet 2012 - 05:08 .


#622
Sir JK

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I half agree Sylvius. The emergent narrative is very much the important bit. It is the fusion between the narrative already lying in place and what aspects you add to it with your character. The final story, so to speak, is as much a product of the game designers as it is of the player(s). It is also unique to each individual character. This one is what the game design should focus on accomodating. It's therein, I feel, true enjoyment lie (and from what I understand, you agree).

I feel I made myself misunderstood however. I do not consider blank spaces to be self defeating. After all, the most important blank space of them all is the mind and thoughts of the character. One which I feel must be left blank in all roleplaying games. But whatever is expressed in a blank space cannot interact with the authored narrative. This does not defeat their purpose or lessen their value as such; but if all emotional expression lie firmly in the blank spaces then all emotional expression is restricted to the emergent narrative and thus by extent all reactions to it as well.

So in order to craft an emergent narrative where the emotions of my character is reacted to, I need to step outside my own character and act on the behalf of the npc. That may be to explain why they act as they do or to add things non-existent in the authored narrative. That varies. The authored narrative gives me very few tools to assist me in these matters. My character remains an exclusive element. Whatever creations I add are exclusive. They will not be confronted, challenged, tested or interacted with by the authored narrative.

If all that's matters is the emergent narrative, and the authored narrative is cleary of at best a secondary concern (note, I am not saying that you believe this) then roguelikes would be the ultimate rpgs. Games like Adon have virtually nothing that limit roleplaying. You can go wherever you wish, fight whatever you wish to fight, learn whatever it is you wihs to learn and be whoever you want to be. But they are not. Not because they do not provide sufficient freedom.
But becaue they complete lack a means to express those things. You cannot even choose what to fight because more often than not it is randomly generated. Whatever your character's beliefs, goals, fears, hopes. thoughts or words are remain solely within the emergent narrative. The inclusive element is completely lacking.

This inclusive element, the act of drawing the character into the authored narrative, I feel is important to the roleplaying games. In pen and paper it is the DM actually weaving what and who you play into the story. In a cRPG it is the choice of dialogue choices and similar. It is what separates "choose-your-own-adventure"-books (though I suppose one could have inclusive elements in those too) from sitting round the tavle with your friends.

The inclusive element is, in short, at the very least the illusion that the authored narrative is designed to care for who my character is.
Thus far, I think all great bioware games have relatively succesfully pulled of inclusive elements. Some more than others.

But, as you point out, if the inclusive element is too strong. The authored narrative takes too much room. Then the game also steps away from being a (good) roleplaying game. It makes the difference between telling a story and providing the means to tell the story together. It is the latter which should be the aspiration, not the former. I have not personally felt any bioware game has done that for me, but I will respect that they have done so for you. That needs to be remedied.

Exclusive elements (among others, blanks spaces) are important. Without them there is no emergent narrative. But inclusive elements are also important. Without them, the emergent narrative is more akin to authoring a story inspired by what happened to you in the game.

The benefit of the cinematic approach is that they provide us with more tools to allow inclusive elements. We can express our character through visual means as well as prosaic. We can express our characters emotionally as well as rationally. At it's best it provides us with more, not less, tools to craft ourselves the emergent narrative.

But, and this is an important but, care must be taken not to go too far. Some cinematic approaches work less well for roleplaying games than other media. Others work well when used certain ways and less so when used in other ways. They're merely storytelling tools. The path forward, in my humble opinion, is not to shy away from them nor abandon the roots but finding the golden mean. Designing the cinematics with core roleplaying values in the first room.

#623
Sylvius the Mad

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Sir JK wrote...

But whatever is expressed in a blank space cannot interact with the authored narrative.

I completely disagree with this.  The whole point of the authored narrative, as with the rest of the game's setting, is to provide something to which those player creations can respond.

I suppose if interaction involves expression moving both ways, then yes, you're obviously correct, but I don't see that as a valuable description.  The components of the authored narrative behave as they are written to do, and that is their half of any interaction with the components of the emergent narrative.  And the components of the emergent narrative themselves arise from the player's reaction to the authored narrative.

This is why I do not think Roguelikes are the ultimate RPGs.  Roguelikes don't provide enough stimulus to which the player can react.  That's long been the strength of BioWare's RPGs - their rich authored narratives offer a multifacted playground from which the player can build emergent narratives. 

One thing in particular bother me about your claims that the components of the authored narrative (like the NPCs) don't respond to the player's inventions within the blank spaces:  This lack of responsiveness is only revealed by metagame knowledge.  Nothing within the game ever hints at this at all.

First, behaviour we do see from the NPCs could well be a reaction to the player's choices within the blank spaces.  Since we cannot read their minds, we do not know how they will react to any particular stimulus, so whatever their authored behaviour is is still plausibly a reaction to the components of the emergent narrative.  From the PC's perspective, there's no way to know.  Second, just as I cannot read the minds of the NPCs to know how they feel, nor do I expect them to be able to read the mind of my character, so the NPCs have no cause to react to my character's emotions, as the NPCs don't know what those are.

I see no lack of desired interaction at all.  There is nothing about NPC reactions to my character's behaviour that I find wanting.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:04 .


#624
Realmzmaster

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Arcanum is on GOG for $5.99 and PST is $9.99 and neither is flying out the door.

I didn't say they could be released 10 years ago and would still be flying ot the door.


Even if they were released on the Internet 10 years ago (if Steam and/or GOG existed) there is no guarntee that they would sell well only an assumption. I do know that around that same time period Baldur's Gate 1,2 and Icewind Dale 1,2 did sell well without the need of a GOG and/or Steam, but Arcanum and PST did not.

So just because a products is good or great does not mean it will be finacially successful. There are more factors at work than just making a good or great game.

#625
bEVEsthda

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BobSmith101 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
 Even if I would agree with that, the immediate reaction is:

But not only  interactive books. RPGs, including "older" RPGs allow roleplay. They have very big holes in them which they allow the player to fill. This is not about cinematics vs text. It's perfectly possible in a cinematic game as well.
 
And if they would figure out how to make the cinematics ambient, and important details as character expression a function of player input, gameplay, it would even be possible to make it 100% cinematic.

I seem to have seen you argue quite a lot for completely abandoning roleplay, and let cinematics plug all holes with predefined content. That's what you say all the time, no compromise, go movie all the way. That would leave us with just a movie, even if it's interleaved with stints of console combat and choice-forks.

This is not gameplay adapting to "new" technology. It's possible with very old technology, and is very old. Consider Dragon's Lair for instance. Except for the novelty value of Dragon Lair, which also had an art-value, this sort of games has had a very limited market, throughout the history of videogaming.
Older gamers rightly regard it as an insult to their gaming intelligence, younger players have no patience for cut-scene movies. Leaves only the FF audience (but even SqE seem to be moving in different directions).


Because in a cinematic game that is the best solution. It works for Witcher2 , it works for Deus Ex. It's different since it shifts the emphasis. But it still keeps the elements of roleplaying games like choices and consequences and multiple endings.

I recall watching in horror when a friend played FFXIII and skipped all the cutscenes. But he still enjoyed the fighting and character crafting.That's not even an option in DA2 "you still have to go through all that annoying conversation stuff" (his words not mine.

I don't regard it as an insult to my intelligence, perhaps because I see nothing particulary intelligent in picking a number from 1 to 5.
Cut scene movies are a big part part of any game that tells a story now. CoD has them in the single player game. Is there a difference in watching a CoD cutscene and watching a FF cutscene ? Not at all.


I'm not impressed by your conclusions, and I firmly reject all your opinions.
I find it quaint that you think you have a point in comparing CoD and FF cutscenes. What were you thinking?