778 réponses à ce sujet

[Cimeas]

You do realise that a huge part of game sales are reviews. Bioware would be slaughtered by reviewers if cinematically and graphically they were not able to compete with their story-RPG brethren (CDPR and Eidos).

Also, perhaps there is a market for old-style RPGs, but you can't say that DA2 failed because it didn't provide that experience. Mass Effect wholly disproves that argument because it is an RPG full of preset conversations, paraphrases, cinematics and player-skill requirements.

So if DA3 is a *good* cinematic RPG, and let me stress the 'good' part, like Mass Effect (until the ending of ME3, that is), they will get new fans, new support, and you probably won't be missed. To be honest, if DA3 was only marketed to you folks, then even every old-fashioned hardcore RPG fan would probably not be enough to recoup the cost of development.


Even DA:O sold the VAST MAJORITY of it's 4.23 million copies on Xbox 360 and Playstation 3.

[Imrahil_]

Cimeas wrote...
Mass Effect wholly disproves that argument because it is an RPG full of preset conversations, paraphrases, cinematics and player-skill requirements.

But Mass Effect is a shooter with some RPG elements.  It's Tomb Raider with a levelling system & moar cutscenes.  The more player-skill matters, the less of an RPG a game is.

[Cimeas]

OK, so what about the hundreds of choice that I made?


Isn't the best definition of a game the one by Sid Meier: 'a game is a series of interesting choices'. Well, I thought Mass Effect has interesting choices.

[Imrahil_]

Until they all resulted, in the end, with your choices not mattering, of course.

[AkiKishi]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Until they all resulted, in the end, with your choices not mattering, of course.

I think that is  worse than having no choice at all. Let's go to the ever favourite Witcher2 where what you did was summed up at the end in cinematic form. Fallout/2/3 and DA:O did something similiar with stills and a voice over.

But in the case of ME3 it's all down to which colour you pick.

[Cimeas]

Fine. Well what I'm saying is that instead of going back to Baldurs Gate, Bioware *should* make their games more like The Witcher, the perfect example of a complex, interesting, engaging and fun modern RPG that doesn't try and pander to the small fanbase of people who want to go back to 90s RPGs.

[Imrahil_]

But they did, it was just a branching ACT II out of V.  Remember the whole Bodhi vs. Aran Linvail tracks?  Those played out completely different depending on your choices.  Sure, it all converged again once you hit Brynnlaw, but there wa a completely different path to get there.

Then there was the whole Sahuagin city thing - yes, you wound up in the Underdark either way, but it appeared you had a choice to go with Saemon Havareon or go directly to the Underdark.  The *illusion* of choice was there. It was only upon multiple playthroughs that you found out you would wind up in the same place regardless.  You still felt like you had a choice.

EDIT: My point is, Bioware pulled all that off 10+ years ago.  I don't see why they can't do that now, other than, well, cinematics.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[Imrahil_]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I think that is  worse than having no choice at all. Let's go to the ever favourite Witcher2 where what you did was summed up at the end in cinematic form. Fallout/2/3 and DA:O did something similiar with stills and a voice over.

Just to address this specific point, the ending of TW2 plays out in several different ways, depedning on if you rescued Triss, if you fight Letho, etc.  It's not a matter of different cinematics.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:36 .

[Pasquale1234]

Cimeas wrote...

You do realise that a huge part of game sales are reviews. Bioware would be slaughtered by reviewers if cinematically and graphically they were not able to compete with their story-RPG brethren (CDPR and Eidos).

Of course - and since DAO was such a universal flop, they had no choice but to try to emulate the more successful games. 

Also, perhaps there is a market for old-style RPGs, but you can't say that DA2 failed because it didn't provide that experience. Mass Effect wholly disproves that argument because it is an RPG full of preset conversations, paraphrases, cinematics and player-skill requirements.

Yet DAO sold more copies than ME1 & 2.

You do, I hope, realize that your entire argument is based on the supposition that your personal tastes comprise the vast majority of the market.  If that were true, then games like the ME series and TW2 should have sold 10x their actual sales.  That they didn't means that they, too, appeal to a niche market.

Even DA:O sold the VAST MAJORITY of it's 4.23 million copies on Xbox 360 and Playstation 3.

I hate to disappoint you, but plenty of console players prefer DAO > DA2.... including me.

Well what I'm saying is that instead of going back to Baldurs Gate, Bioware *should* make their games more like The Witcher, the perfect example of a complex, interesting, engaging and fun modern RPG that doesn't try and pander to the small fanbase of people who want to go back to 90s RPGs.

Did someone suggest going back to Baldur's Gate? The Witcher also pandered to a niche market. If it were the universally beloved be-all-end-all-omigod-game-of-the-century, it would have sold many more copies than it has.

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Why would any gamer want to have the exact same experience as all other gamers?

Obviously plenty of gamers do want that, or at least don't care, because you'll notice that not every game in the world is an RPG, and they all sell pretty well. Assuming they all complete the game to its fullest extent, they will have seen identical content and had identical experiences.

Then why is it than I can play the exact same map of an RTS using different strategies and have vastly different outcomes?  How is that each of my Wardens had entirely different personalities and experienced some of the same in-game events in vastly different ways?  Which one of them was identical to the way your Warden experienced it?

As for why? Well, why not? Another person having the same fun as you does not detract from your fun in any way, unless you're a miser on par with Ebeneezer Scrooge or the Grinch, in which case you don't believe in 'fun' to begin with. And the mere existence of this forum is incontravertible proof that a good portion of gamers like to discuss and compare their experiences with others, which they would not be able to do if they didn't have relatively similar experiences to share.

People expect to experience the same content when they watch the same movie, which is largely the topic of this thread.

For many RPG players, the purpose and pleasure derived from the game is largely derived from creating the emergent narrative, which can vary not only among different players, but different playthroughs.  If the only narrative a game offers is the authored one, I'd rather watch a movie.

[AkiKishi]

Imrahil_ wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I think that is  worse than having no choice at all. Let's go to the ever favourite Witcher2 where what you did was summed up at the end in cinematic form. Fallout/2/3 and DA:O did something similiar with stills and a voice over.

Just to address this specific point, the ending of TW2 plays out in several different ways, depedning on if you rescued Triss, if you fight Letho, etc.  It's not a matter of different cinematics.

That's what I was refering to when I said "what you did".

[AkiKishi]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
People expect to experience the same content when they watch the same movie, which is largely the topic of this thread.

For many RPG players, the purpose and pleasure derived from the game is largely derived from creating the emergent narrative, which can vary not only among different players, but different playthroughs.  If the only narrative a game offers is the authored one, I'd rather watch a movie.

What if you don't want to create an emergent narrative ? Or you don't even have any idea what that is? 

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Did someone suggest going back to Baldur's Gate? The Witcher also pandered to a niche market. If it were the universally beloved be-all-end-all-omigod-game-of-the-century, it would have sold many more copies than it has.

Like PST ? We all know as far as the mass market is concerned advertising budget trumps quality. Witcher did 2 million + on a single platform from an unknown developer.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:55 .

[Cimeas]

Exactly. RPG developers couldn't create complete stories with cinematics, so they described some things in little text boxes and made up the rest. I don't want to play a game where I have to make up motivation, backstory, conversations, etc....

That's lazy game design. RPGs shouldn't be writing exercises, they should entertain. That's like watching half of a movie, then it just skips to the ending and you have to make up what happens in the middle. Or a movie just starts, some guy asks the main character about the backstory, and some text flashes up on the screen 'Please Imagine A Back-Story Now. Thank You'.

If you want to make stuff up, how many times do I have to say, WRITE A BOOK. If you want to set your story in the DA world, write some fan-fiction, there's great stuff out there.


I don't know about you, but I play RPGs, as my 14 year old nephew so fantastically said, to "kill s*** and make choices", not create imaginary stories in my head.

[Cimeas]

Oh, and according to vgchartz, Mass Effect 2 did sell more than DA.

Thank you.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Cimeas wrote...

Exactly. RPG developers couldn't create complete stories with cinematics, so they described some things in little text boxes and made up the rest. I don't want to play a game where I have to make up motivation, backstory, conversations, etc....

Well, I don't want to play a game where I just eat pop-corn and watch  3D character who is suppose to be my character. I do that all the time in ANY games. I want to play a role in a RPG and not play a movie director's role or a puppet master's role. I'm so sick and tired of playing such stupid roles. I want to feel how it's like being a hero in a virtual world of my own story with a toolset or flexible features/choices provided by the developer. Not watching a stupid predefined character emotes by itself.

Cimeas wrote...
That's lazy game design. RPGs shouldn't be writing exercises, they should entertain.

You are right, RPG should be entertaining AND be able to provide a platform for ROLEPLAYING where YOU can assume role of a character.

Cimeas wrote...
If you want to make stuff up, how many times do I have to say, WRITE A BOOK. If you want to set your story in the DA world, write some fan-fiction, there's great stuff out there.


I don't know about you, but I play RPGs, as my 14 year old nephew so fantastically said, to "kill s*** and make choices", not create imaginary stories in my head.

Well, I create imaginary stories and make it happen in my RPG ever since the day I play Neverwinter's Aurora toolset and TES constuction kit. I don't write a book or some fan fictions, I create my own custom made campaign. To be a creator and a god. That's where I derive my sole entertainment from a rpg. That's why I buy BioWare's games before DA 2 and ME series. ( I don't give a damn about KOTOR.  ) 

Just to let you know not everybody play the way you do.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .

[Xewaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
The most effective way as I see it is to go the Witcher/Deus Ex route,distil what a roleplaying session accomplishes from an outside looking in perspective and design around that.

BobSmith101 wrote...
Which really can't be done. A blank space has infinate possibilities or can just be a blank space. The most effective way as I see it is to go the Witcher/Deus Ex route,distil what a roleplaying session accomplishes from an outside looking in perspective and design around that.

Looking at a roleplaying session from the outside misses the essence of roleplaying: the decision-making.

I would say Deus Ex Human Revolution is closer to a campaign with pregenerated characters than an outside experience. While most people prefer to make their own characters, in certain cases, a pregenerated character can be good for shaking up roleplay. Now, is Adam sufficiently described for making decisions for him? I'd say not quite but almost.

[Plaintiff]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
Then why is it than I can play the exact same map of an RTS using different strategies and have vastly different outcomes?

Not every game is an RTS either, so what the **** does this have to do with anything?

There are plenty of games. Platformers, shooters, etc, where the players will experience identical content. In fact, assuming two individuals explored every single possible option in DA:O, their experience is also identical.

How is that each of my Wardens had entirely different personalities and experienced some of the same in-game events in vastly different ways?

Uh... you imagined it? Duh?

Which one of them was identical to the way your Warden experienced it?

Nothing I said in any way implied that all Origins playthroughs are identical. Did you actually read my post, or are you just making up an argument that you're capable of refuting?

People expect to experience the same content when they watch the same movie, which is largely the topic of this thread.

They also expect this when they play any number of games that feature a linear narrative.

For many RPG players, the purpose and pleasure derived from the game is largely derived from creating the emergent narrative, which can vary not only among different players, but different playthroughs.  If the only narrative a game offers is the authored one, I'd rather watch a movie.

Then give up gaming right now, because the authored narrative is the only narrative a game can offer.

You cannot experience anything in a game that was not written. There is no emergent narrative in DA:O or any other RPG, anymore than there is an emergent narrative in a Choose Your Own Adventure. All the choices and combinations of coices that you could possibly make were planned, and their outcomes are predetermined.

But none of this has anything to do with what I posted, you've gone off on a completely unrelated tangent.

Sylvius asked why any gamer would want the same experience as another gamer. I was merely pointing out that a lot of gamers must want that, because, funnily enough, not every game in the world offers divergent experiences. In fact, most do not.

What Dragon Age: Origins does or does not do is irrelevent, because not every game is Deagon Age: Origins. Not every game is an RPG and not everyone who plays RPGs considers themselves an 'RPG player'. Your definitions of 'game' and 'gamer' are not the only ones that exist.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[AkiKishi]

Plaintiff wrote...
Then give up gaming right now, because the authored narrative is the only narrative a game can offer.

You cannot experience anything in a game that was not written. There is no emergent narrative in DA:O or any other RPG, anymore than there is an emergent narrative in a Choose Your Own Adventure. All the choices and combinations of coices that you could possibly make were planned, and their outcomes are predetermined.

But none of this has anything to do with what I posted, you've gone off on a completely unrelated tangent.

Sylvius asked why any gamer would want the same experience as another gamer. I was merely pointing out that a lot of gamers must want that, because, funnily enough, not every game in the world offers divergent experiences. In fact, most do not.

What Dragon Age: Origins does or does not do is irrelevent, because not every game is Deagon Age: Origins. Not every game is an RPG and not everyone who plays RPGs considers themselves an 'RPG player'. Your definitions of 'game' and 'gamer' are not the only ones that exist.

I'll disagree here.

Ever watch CSI ? When they find a crime scene they run over what might have happened. A game is much the same. If you are playing Fallout and come across a vault with corpses strewn everywhere discarded weapons and a super mutant corpse. That tells a story. In another sense everything you do in the game tells it's own story like combat for example (although since that's not lost due to authoured narrative let's not worry about it).Your combat will be unique to your game. 

But in the words of Detective Conan "There is only one truth" and that's where the emergent narrative must give way to the authoured narrative. If Hawke delivers a line angry then Hawke delivers a line angry. Stuff like "my Hawke would not get angry there" ! is part of the problem with co-existing narratives.

It's also the reason you never get these sorts of posts about Witcher2/Deus Ex etc.

[jillabender]

Plaintiff wrote…

Then give up gaming right now, because the authored narrative is the only narrative a game can offer.

You cannot experience anything in a game that was not written. There is no emergent narrative in DA:O or any other RPG, anymore than there is an emergent narrative in a Choose Your Own Adventure. All the choices and combinations of coices that you could possibly make were planned, and their outcomes are predetermined.

Okay, look – when I play Dragon Age: Origins, I have a limited number of dialogue options and story choices to choose from, but to me (and I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else), the same story choice or piece of dialogue can feel different depending on the personality that I imagine for my Warden.

For example, when I have the option to say to Wynne "Sometimes I wish I could go back to my old life," it's up to me to imagine why my Warden misses his or her old life, and in doing so, I'll probably think back to the way my character responded to the events in the Origin story.

The issue of my Warden missing his or her old life may never come up again directly in conversations, but in my imagination, it will affect how my Warden feels about later events in the game. And that, in turn, has an impact on how I as the player experience the story.

To use another example, that same dialogue option with Wynne would take on a different shade of meaning if my character happens to be very proud, because in that case, admitting to feeling loss would be a rare moment of letting his or her guard down. And that would make the whole conversation feel different to me.

You may not have any interest in approaching the game that way, and that's completely fine. You may not see any value in designing a game in a way that encourages that kind of approach, and again, that's completely fine.

I fully appreciate that no argument I could make would convince someone that Bioware should make the kind of games I like instead of the kind of games that they like. And I'm fine with the idea of RPGs that offer a completely different kind of experience from DA:O.

But – and I say this with complete respect – I know what I feel and experience when I play Dragon Age: Origins. I know how vividly I imagine my characters, and how that affects my experience of the game. And I'm going to continue to play it the way I always have.

Modifié par jillabender, 27 juillet 2012 - 10:13 .

[bEVEsthda]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
People expect to experience the same content when they watch the same movie, which is largely the topic of this thread.
For many RPG players, the purpose and pleasure derived from the game is largely derived from creating the emergent narrative, which can vary not only among different players, but different playthroughs.  If the only narrative a game offers is the authored one, I'd rather watch a movie.

What if you don't want to create an emergent narrative ? Or you don't even have any idea what that is? 

  ... So,  - you're saying that "RPG" games should be made for people who don't want to play RPGs?
... And, - that is so important, that to h*** with those who do want to play a RPG?


- But the answer to your question is straightforward: Go watch a movie.  ...Or play a FPS or platformer.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:34 .

[AkiKishi]

bEVEsthda wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
People expect to experience the same content when they watch the same movie, which is largely the topic of this thread.
For many RPG players, the purpose and pleasure derived from the game is largely derived from creating the emergent narrative, which can vary not only among different players, but different playthroughs.  If the only narrative a game offers is the authored one, I'd rather watch a movie.

What if you don't want to create an emergent narrative ? Or you don't even have any idea what that is? 

  ... So,  - you're saying that "RPG" games should be made for people who don't want to play RPGs?
... And, - that is so important, that to h*** with those who do want to play a RPG?


- But the answer to your question is straightforward: Go watch a movie.  ...Or play a FPS or platformer.

If this thread has shown anything it's that people take different things from roleplaying games. The general problem is whether roleplaying as you define it requires previous experience or knowledge. Because if people don't know what an emergent narrative is then how are they supposed to identify with it ? 

Authoured narrative is the same whether you have 20 years of PnP experience or none. Games that rely on emergent narrative are not.

[Cimeas]

People basically want to be given a setting and just mess around in it. Well, that's exactly what TES games are for. Bioware's more 'cinematic' storytelling contains a more directed narrative, and I (though some would obviously disagree) think that is a good thing.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

What low cost digital purchase?

You cited the prices yourself.

The digital downloads are not  significantly cheaper than the retail media.

There wouldn't be retail media.  Most of the games released on Steam are only released on Steam.

Arcanum now would be cheaper to make than Arcanum 11 year ago, even with minor cosmetic improvements.  Released as a brand new original game on Steam and sold for $20 or less (with Steam regularly discounting it), it would probably sell quite well.

Then that goes back to what I orignally said that there are other factors to consider than just making a good or great game. Just making a great game it not enough. You just mentioned the lowering of the price which is a factor. If you go back to my original post on the subject that is what I was stating. 

[Cimeas]

For people who say 'go play an FPS', they don't get the point. I'm playing L.A. Noire now, a perfectly respectable open-world action adventure with a great storyline. But I get bored (usually) after more than an hour. There are rarely plot choices to make, friends and companions to talk to (optionally), gear to equip, or different paths to go down. I can't customize my character's skills at all.


That is what an RPG provides. Some sense of choice and customization in the game.

[bEVEsthda]

Cimeas wrote...

For people who say 'go play an FPS', they don't get the point. I'm playing L.A. Noire now, a perfectly respectable open-world action adventure with a great storyline. But I get bored (usually) after more than an hour. There are rarely plot choices to make, friends and companions to talk to (optionally), gear to equip, or different paths to go down. I can't customize my character's skills at all.


That is what an RPG provides. Some sense of choice and customization in the game.

Thankyou.

(I'd still like a little bit more though. And I'll certainly take my own advice - I frequently do so - however, it's worth noting that, lately, there is too much cutscene movies in shooters too)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .

[Realmzmaster]

There is a difference here is whether a gamer wants to headcanon their character or not. Emergent narrative means nothing to a gamer who knows nothing about it. That gamer is slipping into the role of the character as it is presented in the game. Others who may have pnp experience are use to headcanoning their player character assigning to him/her the motivations, tone and attitudes that the gamer imagines. DAO allowed this type of gamer to create their PC and DA2 does not. On the other had DA2 allowed the gamer who slips into the role to do just that more so than DAO.

Different ways and aspects of roleplaying