778 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Theorectically, with the right tools cinematics should only make expressing our characters easier. Easier said than done, naturally. But they should theoretically allow a greater ability to express our creations that before. Assuming one uses the right tool for the right job.

[bEVEsthda]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think we have gotten a bit off topic. bEVEthesda was pointing out that cinematic focus seems to trump all other concerns recently in Bioware's development. Should they do away with them? No. They have become a part of them as a developer and that is fine.

However, would the game have shipped if the cutscenes didn't work? Would the game have gone 'gold' if the interactive dialogue like interrupts didn't function? Would the game have been sent out on the shelves if pieces of dialogue were mute by mistake?

No, as can be seen by the fact that this has never been the case with a Bioware game in the past three years. But can you say the same about some of the gameplay elements? Patches to fix things like exploding blood bags the first day says otherwise. Do mechanics get the same love? Given the fact that the same above patch fixed the 'mash A button issue', I'd say no. Does story get the same kind of careful review? Obviously not, seeing the obvious story issues and lore retcons apparent in DA2 and ME3.

So all we're asking for is if Bioware puts a fine tooth comb in their cinematics, maybe they should put a similar fine tooth comb through everything else. Because if your cinematic is successful at telling a garbage story, what do you think people will remember? The beautiful venue through which that story was told... or the fact that the story was a total flop?

 Thankyou Jimmy.

I'd add though, that a main concern of mine is also that overemphasis on cinematics is used as a method to disassemble other game details. I kinda wanted to make my argument visible, give it evidence, persuasive strength, by pointing to that Bioware have done some strange things recently.

I'm absolutely convinced, that a game that only consists of stints of combat, and then a cinematic storytelling on the side, has very little market appeal. No matter how briliant the cinematics are. And the only thing I see is how efforts, to 'perfect' the cinematic presentation, is allowed to override major concerns in games. Why? Is a flawless cinematic presentation worth the cost of everything else? I'd argue no. IMO, a great cinematic presentation, all alone by itself, is worth very little, at the end of day.

Call it a display of distrust. A distrust that Bioware, as an organisation, is operating in a rational manner. The theory is that the 'cinematics' mantra undermined the rationality.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

PurebredCorn wrote...

It's very rare when I feel that cinematics have presented my character in a way that I would not have chosen myself, so rare as to not be an issue for me. But I suspect the level of detail I put into my characters probably pales in comparison to level of detail you put into your own characters.

Do you ever replay the games, perhaps with a PC vastly different from the last one?

I would expect the cinematics to cause every player difficulties under these circumstances, as the PC would behave exactly the same way in every playthrough, even if the characters' personalities were relevantly dissimilar.

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think we have gotten a bit off topic. bEVEthesda was pointing out that cinematic focus seems to trump all other concerns recently in Bioware's development.

Yes - and here is a short list of some of the impacts this cinematic focus has on player and character agency (at least to some degree)

• No race / origin options for the protag (due to the difficulty of setting up camera angles that would look a certain way for each race)
• Conversations with followers limited to specific places (for settings, camera angles, other ambient activity)
• No armor customization for followers (so they don't have to account for different meshes in planning the animations and shots)
• Voiced protag
• Protag's reactions, dialogue delivery, gestures, expressions, mannerisms all dictated by the developers
• Auto-dialogue
• Fewer choices and options, more restrictions on character agency
• Player agency in terms of controlling flow and pacing greatly reduced
• Player agency to co-create the story greatly reduced
• Narrower overall story focus (narrow and deep instead of broader and shallower)

There are probably more, but I think this is enough to explain the reasons why some players are unhappy with the focus on cinematic storytelling.

I understand that some players are looking for an engaging storyline and really love the idea of directing a protag - making some choices and then watching them play out, discovering who the protag is via observation instead of knowing who the protag is from the beginning.

But that is not what I want from an RPG.

It seems to me that this cinematic focus equates to a focus on storytelling, exposing a specific narrative as the player moves through the game.  While I want an interesting and engaging story, I want that story to serve as a medium for role-playing, not the entire purpose of the game.

With DAO, I feel that the story (and gameplay mechanics) exist in service and support of the player's efforts at role-play.  With DA2, I felt like the player (and "streamlined" game mechanics) exist in service to the story.

[bEVEsthda]

PurebredCorn wrote...

I've enjoyed Bioware's evolution in game making. I loved the Baldur's Gate games, I played the hell out of them, and I'm super excited to see that someone is making and enhanced edition of the games. I also really enjoyed NWN and the expansions, especially HotU (I thought it was better than the main campaign). The addition of the cinematics in the DA games and ME series feels like a natural progression to me. I think it only enhances my enjoyment of the story and development of the interesting characters that they create.

Before DA2, it wouldn't occur to me to be concerned about cinematics.

[AstraDrakkar]

renjility wrote...

I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.

^This^

[bEVEsthda]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

renjility wrote...

I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.

^This^

What are you left with? A story. What else?

[Cutlasskiwi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

......... Since I'm not the one creating the character from scratch and given my preference for 3rd person perspective the VO and cinematics works great. .............

Not creating your own character or not creating your own story and circumstance in which your "hero" will interact with his/her enviroment?

Since a cRPG never come close the freedom I get with a DM I never try to create my own character.

[Realmzmaster]

bEVEsthda wrote...

AstraDrakkar wrote...

renjility wrote...

I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.

^This^

What are you left with? A story. What else?

Combat is not the only way to conflict resolution. The problem with many cRPGS over the years is that combat has become the predominant way of resolving conflict. Combat as conflict resolution is easy to do. Combat is what most gamers have come to expect in the way of conflict resolution
Planescape Torment can be completed with minimal combat. It is (IMHO) a good game, critically acclaimed but a financial failure. It was not what gamers expected.

Some gamers want to see a de-emphasis on combat and more non-comabt ways of conflict resolution. 

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

AstraDrakkar wrote...

renjility wrote...

I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.

^This^

What are you left with? A story. What else?

Combat is not the only way to conflict resolution. The problem with many cRPGS over the years is that combat has become the predominant way of resolving conflict. Combat as conflict resolution is easy to do. Combat is what most gamers have come to expect in the way of conflict resolution
Planescape Torment can be completed with minimal combat. It is (IMHO) a good game, critically acclaimed but a financial failure. It was not what gamers expected.

Some gamers want to see a de-emphasis on combat and more non-comabt ways of conflict resolution. 

- But, ofbloody course!...

I wouldn't spend one millisecond deciding wether to play a cRPG for combat. I just wouldn't. Period. But neither would I play it for story presented with a sequence of movies. Wouldn't take a millisecond either.

[FedericoV]

I want to avoid a wall of text. So, I have just one question about Bioware's cinematic style.

Dear Bioware, since you are so hooked with cinematic, why don't you try to improve your ambient storytelling a bit? I mean, it does not take too much effort to do a better Kirkwall or a better Citadel. You know, having people who actually move on the map with tasks, having random discussions and the like. It's important to give some illusion of life to the setting. Have you ever seen a movie where all the token players stay quiet and fixed, repeating the same gestures/discussions over and over again?

Modifié par FedericoV, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Well, for me the most important thing is that they don't sound exactly the same, as in my self-righteous do-gooder doesn't sound the same as my selfish funny-gal, etc. If they walk into the room in the same way or sit in that same chair every time, it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

[Cimeas]

RPGs have NEVER been where the best gameplay is found. Baldur's Gate and Planescape had combat that could be fun, but was generally very boring, repetitive and slow unless you really focused on it and build challenge for yourself.

Role-Playing games should be about playing a -you guessed it- role in a story or a gameworld. While I'm certainly not against Bioware opting for better animated, faster paced, more complex, more detailed or more advanced/action-ey combat, (whichever direction it goes with DA3), that should not be it's priority.

'Gameplay focus' in Bioware games should be choice itself, thus the story, because you decide it (much like deciding which spells to use) *IS* gameplay.

I don't want to go back to old games where text flashes on screen saying:

'you drink the wine out of the cup, fall down and have a dream about a spirit and he says this and this and then you kill him'

I want to *do* that, I want to *SEE* the cinematics and I want to take part in a well crafted story with good graphical and animation quality.

[The Hierophant]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Well, for me the most important thing is that they don't sound exactly the same, as in my self-righteous do-gooder doesn't sound the same as my selfish funny-gal, etc. If they walk into the room in the same way or sit in that same chair every time, it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

Agreed, the monotony of Jory's shanking could be remedied by a QTE of different reactions to the event.(E.g. one reaction has the warden step foward to Jory's defense but is held back by Alistair, while another one has the warden nonchalantly pick their nose, and flick the booger to the side.)
The grieving period for Leandra's death could've been an unspecified quest. The player could initiate the default grieving dialogue at your house, or special dialogue at The Hanged Man, Gamlen's house, or Leandra grave in which each one is unique, and not a carbon copy of the others.

[Pzykozis]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

I disliked that every warden had to become a warden...

[addiction21]

If I had "my old BioWare" back we would have a sewuel to Shattad Steel and they would be pushing for a MDK3.

Just my thoughts on it.

[Jerrybnsn]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

You were aghast by Ser Jory's death?  I thought he had it coming no matter which race or gender I played.  I was more concerned with being knocked out from that darkspawn blood and having the archdemon vision.  So everyone of your Wardens you played, you always picked "I can't believe you killed Jory!"?

Or you mean the cinematic scene where you and Alistair are looking down on Jory's death convulsions after Duncan dispatched him?http://www.youtube.c...?v=yCYq9b8TFNY 

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****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

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .

[jillabender]

Jerrybsn wrote…

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

You were aghast by Ser Jory's death? I thought he had it coming no matter which race or gender I played. I was more concerned with being knocked out from that darkspawn blood and having the archdemon vision. So everyone of your Wardens you played, you always picked "I can't believe you killed Jory!"?

I could be wrong, but I think Sylvius meant that he didn't like the facial animation for his character in the scene where Jory dies, because it depicted his character as being aghast whether or not he wanted to role-play the character that way.

Modifié par jillabender, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Well, for me the most important thing is that they don't sound exactly the same, as in my self-righteous do-gooder doesn't sound the same as my selfish funny-gal, etc. If they walk into the room in the same way or sit in that same chair every time, it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm not as concerned with those inconsequential animations, but I dislike that every Warden is aghast at the death of Jory in exactly the same way, or that every Hawke grieves over the death of Leandra in exactly the same way.

I can understand that, but I'm okay with not having that kind of control because it's not something that I've ever been able to control in any video game.

Sure you have.  Whenever your character's reaction wasn't displayed on screen, you could decide it was whatever you wanted it to be.

Just because you don't see something happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  In fact, anything that you don't see contradicted on the screen is something that could have happened.

[Jerrybnsn]

I can say, in the case of Jory's death, that I personally was not expecting Jory's and Duncan's confrontation. I didn't know that if they refuse they would be killed. Top that off on the first recruit actually dying from drinking that taint, my mouth was set wide open, as was shown in the cinematic scene with my "hero", as Jory laid dying on the ground. In just a couple of minutes worth of cutscenes, I had a lot to take in.  So, in the fraction of a second that they showed my Warden's mouth wide open, it was not a full blown breaking of immersion or control of my character in the way that DA2 could by allowing Hawke to go into an automatic monologue of his own.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[AkiKishi]

Realmzmaster wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

AstraDrakkar wrote...

renjility wrote...

I don't agree cinematics are no good at all. Without a good story and an engaging portrayal of the story (= cutscenes) I care little for all the combat in a game.

^This^

What are you left with? A story. What else?

Combat is not the only way to conflict resolution. The problem with many cRPGS over the years is that combat has become the predominant way of resolving conflict. Combat as conflict resolution is easy to do. Combat is what most gamers have come to expect in the way of conflict resolution
Planescape Torment can be completed with minimal combat. It is (IMHO) a good game, critically acclaimed but a financial failure. It was not what gamers expected.

Some gamers want to see a de-emphasis on combat and more non-comabt ways of conflict resolution. 

Plots generally revolve around conflict and conflict is more often than not resolved by fighting. In PST there was no central conflict. But then, a lot of PST was unique and relied on certain devices to make it work which you can't just use in any game.

New Vegas lets you talk your way out of a lot of things, but no everything. Some things are either not interested or can't talk. Thats the way it should be.