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Get 'Our old Bioware' back: Drop focus on cinematics


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#151
bEVEsthda

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Cimeas wrote...

Question One: So you want Bioware to forget about attracting new players and only focus on the classic audience of old BG2 players?

Question Two: So you agree that a game of DA:O's length will have to have significant periods of level recycling (like DA:O) and hardly have state of the art graphics?

Question Three: You understand that if Bioware cannot keep up with other successful RPG devs like CDPR, they will get hurt in reviews and customer perception, few want to play a game worse (in a few core ways) than the alternatives, as shown by DA2's reasonably lackluster sales?

Question Four: Do you understand that Bioware has a very large team and is a big company (or sub-company)? As a company that wishes to make bigger games, employ more people, and get more fans (i.e. become more SUCCESSFUL) they want to expand their audience, and that means marketing to those outside the classic RPG fanbase.

Question Five: Do you understand that most people's only complaints, as evidenced on dozens of gaming sites were that (1) there was too much level-recycling, which was absolutely the case, and (2) there was no companion gear/skill/weapon customization? Seriously, that was the extent of most complaints. The voiced main character is a huge improvement, no longer are we playing a glorified choose-your-adventure hero, but someone who has that fundamental human quality- speech!


Other games had VO'd leads in 2002, and here we are in 2012 and you want things to go back to lifeless, personality-less characters who are merely avatars of yourself, rather than people of their own.


Dear Cimeas,
I hope you don't take this in any way wrong, because I'm gonna go through the steps with you here.

You can't just throw out something, that is phrased as counter points, without knowing what position you're arguing against. I don't know why you did this. Guesses are, that you had some frustrated feelings about where you think the gist of this thread is going. Couldn't find any specific points, or opponent, to suit your purpose, and went ahead anyway. Just to vent. But, of course, I can't know. Only you do. In any way, that doesn't look so good, so try avoid it.

Also (and this is soo common on these forums) you can't rely on others' counter- (supposedly) -arguments, for understanding what the original position was. Let the fool be alone in his misunderstandings, even if you perceive him as an ally. You have to go back to the source statements for the real position.

Related to that, is that it is a helluva good idea, to read a thread from the beginning. Particularly if one intends to ask questions. But it's also nice if one intends to make some general argument on the thread topic, rather than a specific detail in some post.

Hope this helps.

#152
Emzamination

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Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB

#153
bEVEsthda

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Emzamination wrote...

Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB


I'm sorry, but I don't think you have one single relevant point here.

#154
Cimeas

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The fact is that Mass Effect sold more than Dragon Age. So they made Dragon Age simpler, and more cinematic. They failed, but that was more because of a bad story and lack of time to add new locations, rather than the cinematic focus itself.

Bioware is a business, and they are listening to their customers, which is why they are bringing back more customization into DA3 and more exploration/a more heroic story/more locations. But they say they do not want to go back to a silent protagonist, because that was one of the few things reviewers criticised in DA:O and quite frankly it would be a huge step backwards into a game where for some reason everyone has a voice.....except the most important character.

#155
Emzamination

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB


I'm sorry, but I don't think you have one single relevant point here.


Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB

#156
bEVEsthda

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Emzamination wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB


I'm sorry, but I don't think you have one single relevant point here.


Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB


You may. Go ahead.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .


#157
batlin

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Cutscenes and cinematics are fine.....so long as they don't impede on player agency. Bioware's been impeding a LOT of player agency lately.

#158
hussey 92

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Emzamination wrote...

Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB

Skyrim didn't have any cut scenes and the "new gen gamers" seemed to like it.

#159
batlin

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Emzamination wrote...

Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB


Hey, how can you criticize his post? Are you a professional critic? If not, you can't disagree with what he said.

#160
Pasquale1234

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Cimeas wrote...

Question One: So you want Bioware to forget about attracting new players and only focus on the classic audience of old BG2 players?


So you want BioWare to forget about the people who loved the first game and toss over half of them in pursuit of a new audience that didn't show up?

Question Three: You understand that if Bioware cannot keep up with other successful RPG devs like CDPR, they will get hurt in reviews and customer perception, few want to play a game worse (in a few core ways) than the alternatives, as shown by DA2's reasonably lackluster sales?


You understand that if BioWare alienates a significant portion of their previous fanbase for an IP already in progress, they will get hurt in reviews and customer perception - not to mention sales?

Question Four: Do you understand that Bioware has a very large team and is a big company (or sub-company)? As a company that wishes to make bigger games, employ more people, and get more fans (i.e. become more SUCCESSFUL) they want to expand their audience, and that means marketing to those outside the classic RPG fanbase.


Do you understand that the best way to attract new players to a game franchise is to simply build a really good game that excels at what it does instead of trying too hard to please everyone and ending up pleasing noone?  Do you understand that many companies find much greater success positioning themselves as a highly-respected leader in a specific market instead of an "also-ran" in a larger, but much more competitive mass-market?

Question Five: Do you understand that most people's only complaints, as evidenced on dozens of gaming sites were that (1) there was too much level-recycling, which was absolutely the case, and (2) there was no companion gear/skill/weapon customization? Seriously, that was the extent of most complaints. The voiced main character is a huge improvement, no longer are we playing a glorified choose-your-adventure hero, but someone who has that fundamental human quality- speech!


Do you understand that those are the simplest, most obvious problems that could be noticed by anyone who played the game for an hour or two and then sold it?  Do you understand that there are also significant numbers of people dissatisfied with the changes in gameplay features between games?

Other games had VO'd leads in 2002, and here we are in 2012 and you want things to go back to lifeless, personality-less characters who are merely avatars of yourself, rather than people of their own.


Although they vary greatly, most of my non-animated, non-voiced protags are very lively, personable, and expressive.  Sorry about yours.

#161
bEVEsthda

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batlin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB


Hey, how can you criticize his post? Are you a professional critic? If not, you can't disagree with what he said.


Of course he can disagree with me.
But that's not what he's doing. He's attacking me for this thread. And that sort of sentiments are utterly irrelevant.

Disagreeing, then he would comment on exactly what he's disagreeing on. Or stating his own beliefs and thoughts, as Cimeas just did.

#162
Zubie

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Cimeas wrote...

The fact is that Mass Effect sold more than Dragon Age. 


No it didn't. Dragon Age: Origins is Bioware's best selling game.

Modifié par easygame88, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:19 .


#163
Fast Jimmy

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easygame88 wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

The fact is that Mass Effect sold more than Dragon Age. 


No it didn't. Dragon Age: Origins is Bioware's best selling game.


Actually, if VGChartz can be believed (and I'll be the first to say that may not be the case, but what other resources do we really have?), then ME3 has sold  2.33 million across all platforms. 

http://www.vgchartz..../mass-effect-3/

While Dragon Age: Origins has sold 2.31 million.

http://www.vgchartz....on-age-origins/

However, DA:O does also have a number of extremely well-sold DLC and an expansion to boot, which boosts its overall net sales to exceed ME3... but ME3 isn't done with its DLC, so we'll see how much those sell (or if an ExPack could happen) in the future for ME3.

So... the answer is... 42.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:45 .


#164
batlin

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bEVEsthda wrote...

batlin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB


Hey, how can you criticize his post? Are you a professional critic? If not, you can't disagree with what he said.


Of course he can disagree with me.
But that's not what he's doing. He's attacking me for this thread. And that sort of sentiments are utterly irrelevant.

Disagreeing, then he would comment on exactly what he's disagreeing on. Or stating his own beliefs and thoughts, as Cimeas just did.


I'm actually mocking him for saying that someone who can't personally do better than Bioware did can't criticize them.

#165
Allan Schumacher

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However, DA:O does also have a number of extremely well-sold DLC and an expansion to boot, which boosts its overall net sales to exceed ME3... but ME3 isn't done with its DLC, so we'll see how much those sell (or if an ExPack could happen) in the future for ME3.


ME3 does have the MTX packs for multiplayer too.

#166
Zubie

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Emzamination wrote...

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB


You should try out Xenosaga or Metal Gear Solid 4. They've got at least a few hours of cinematics to sate your need for them. You could also watch a movie.

As for me, I like to actually play my games.

Modifié par easygame88, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:58 .


#167
Fast Jimmy

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

However, DA:O does also have a number of extremely well-sold DLC and an expansion to boot, which boosts its overall net sales to exceed ME3... but ME3 isn't done with its DLC, so we'll see how much those sell (or if an ExPack could happen) in the future for ME3.


ME3 does have the MTX packs for multiplayer too.


True. I don't know how (or if) VGChartz could even begin to take that into consideration.

But, while DA:O bought a pretty solid foothold in the gaming world and community at large for Bioware (as opposed to the RPG niche it had been currently living in), ME3 has put it in the spotlight again in the exact opposite type of way.

I mean, honestly... the ME3 endings were covered by mainstream press outlets. When, in any time of recent memory, have video games been discussed in mainstream news rotations and there not been violence or sex involved? 

In a weird, perverse sort of way... this may be the first time story in a video game has been a hot news item. Which may be a bizarre silver lining to this whole mad, insane experience.

But I have wandered into total off-topic land.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:06 .


#168
bEVEsthda

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batlin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

batlin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Oh I have 3, I just don't have points/views 'you' want to hear because they conflict with your own, understandable.Go back and read your Op then mine and if you still don't understand I'll be happy to break them all down for you. Image IPB


Hey, how can you criticize his post? Are you a professional critic? If not, you can't disagree with what he said.


Of course he can disagree with me.
But that's not what he's doing. He's attacking me for this thread. And that sort of sentiments are utterly irrelevant.

Disagreeing, then he would comment on exactly what he's disagreeing on. Or stating his own beliefs and thoughts, as Cimeas just did.


I'm actually mocking him for saying that someone who can't personally do better than Bioware did can't criticize them.


Great explanation. It makes sense. Lol.  I thought things started to look real crazy... who spiced my tea, like.

#169
wsandista

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Op, I love how you start off with "Bioware has been dropping the ball Over and over again." as if you could do any better. Image IPB

Its not your place nor mine to make comments on bioware's work ethic,buisness operations,transactions
 and partners ( i.e EA).Ray muzyka and  Greg zeschuk founded this company, not you and that means they can do business with whoever they want however they want with 'their' company.When you get enough bank to found your own gaming company then you can run it however you want and sod the rest.Shattered steel,Baldur's gate,nwn,kotor and jade empire were outstanding games for their time but time has moved on,so has the gaming industry and the way games are made, get over it.All those games would be considered trash to new gen gamers.There is no 'old' bioware, there is and always will be just bioware.

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB


I'm sorry, but I don't think you have one single relevant point here.


Dude she never does.

#170
wsandista

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easygame88 wrote...

 You could also watch a movie.

As for me, I like to actually play my games.


You know, I am wondering why games keep having more cinematic and less gameplay in them, and get called "improved" by some. How does less gameplay make a game better?

#171
Sylvius the Mad

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Emzamination wrote...

As far as cinematics go, I don't think they putting in remotely enough.Reading text and imagining what's going on in a story is what my grandmother did.This is the age of visual media, I need to see and expierence what's happening with my own eyes.Too many old school gamers, there just isn't a big enough market for your kind anymore. Image IPB

First, I suggest you check stats on the average age of gamers.

Second, I don't care whether the game is presented visually or as text - I just want to be able to control my own character again, and DA2 doesn't let me do that.  None of BioWare's voiced protagonist games have done that.  If they can find a way to fix that while still keeping the voice, fine, but I have yet to see any evidence that this is possible.

#172
Sylvius the Mad

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Cimeas wrote...

The fact is that Mass Effect sold more than Dragon Age.

Not true.  ME3 sold more than DAO did, but neither ME nor ME2 sold as many.

Since the decision to move to voice was made for DA2 before even ME2 was released, it cannot have been because the voiced games were outselling the silent games, becuase they weren't.

I suggest that the voiced games were easier for BioWare to sell to EA's marketing department, and EA's marketing department has significant control over how many resources BioWare gets to develop their games.

#173
wsandista

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Second, I don't care whether the game is presented visually or as text - I just want to be able to control my own character again, and DA2 doesn't let me do that.  None of BioWare's voiced protagonist games have done that.  If they can find a way to fix that while still keeping the voice, fine, but I have yet to see any evidence that this is possible.


I doubt they will ever be able to accomplish that. It would take a huge amount of resources to even get close to allowing full player control of a voiced PC in a cinematic game, and even then it would still not be close enough.

The only way to allow player control of the PC is to have a silent PC in a non-cinematic game. There simply isn't any other way.

#174
Sylvius the Mad

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wsandista wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Second, I don't care whether the game is presented visually or as text - I just want to be able to control my own character again, and DA2 doesn't let me do that.  None of BioWare's voiced protagonist games have done that.  If they can find a way to fix that while still keeping the voice, fine, but I have yet to see any evidence that this is possible.


I doubt they will ever be able to accomplish that. It would take a huge amount of resources to even get close to allowing full player control of a voiced PC in a cinematic game, and even then it would still not be close enough.

The only way to allow player control of the PC is to have a silent PC in a non-cinematic game. There simply isn't any other way.

The evidence does seem to point in that direction, but I'd rather not be defeatist.

#175
wsandista

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The evidence does seem to point in that direction, but I'd rather not be defeatist.


I don't really see how accepting the limitations of a voiced PC is exactly defeatist, especially when silent PC is the better option (in terms of player control, the most important aspect of an RPG IMO) and should be used. If anything pointing out the failings of the voiced PC(and the dialogue wheel in particular) supports the case for a silent PC, which I gladly lobby for.