I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.
-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...
Well guys?
Why do people keep insisting that conventional victory is possible?
Débuté par
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
, juil. 03 2012 12:28
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#3
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:33
Brovikk Rasputin
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Because they think they own the franchise.
#4
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:36
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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Come on, people are always saying that one of the main reasons the ending is bad is because there is no option for conventional victory. Meet me halfway here.
#5
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:39
The Angry One
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back.
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...
If you're going to outright lie to promote this ridiculous "OMG REAPARS R UNSTOPPABLE" thing some people seem to love I'm just not going to bother.
#6
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:43
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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So you're going to just conveniently ignore all that?
#7
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:50
v0rt3x22
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-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
He was fighting back + he had help from a huge geth armada. Let's not forget that.
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
Since it takes a while for the Reapers to eradicate all life - I would argue that if all forces in the galaxy unite in one spot - they could wipe out the Reapers "systematically".
It was already stressed in ME1 that a reaper wouldn't stand a chance against the galaxy united.
If you kill all reapers at earth - and then move from place to place together - I'm sure it would work.
-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.
This really doesn't help your case, because the entire fleet united is much stronger than a single Thresher Maw.
I mean - just look at some of the war assets towards the end of the game - it is pretty huge - but then again - ofcourse we're not sure how many reapers there are.
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
Yes - and that's what happens when you fight for yourself - instead of grouping up in a single massive army like at the end of ME3. It needs to be a team effort.
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
I agree - Ground forces are not the way to go - but then again - Earth is an extreme example because the Reapers are much more concentrated on it.
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
Yes but they're resourceful - and every little bit counts.
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
That depends really on your choice in ME1 - whether you save the council or not. But yes they did have a losses regardless.
-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.
I'm sure they'd come in handy somewhere.
-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.
Honestly - towards the end of the game I didn't have a feeling that they were winning - nor that we were winning - but given the fact that I collected so many war assets - which were all (apparently) used to escort the crucible - it seems a bit of a waste.
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...
Reapers are not invincible - they do have weaknesses - which start to show when a single fleet focuses on one.
So I would argue that there is a fighting chance when you focus on each reaper one by one.
#8
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:52
iAFKinMassEffect3
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
Well guys?
The Migrant fleet now has more dreadnought class weapon ships than anyone, which is against the rules.
All of their ships are armed for warfare with the latest and best technology.
The alliance fleet is barely weakened bytthe Sovereign/Geth attack, destiny ascension more than makes up for it.
Hammer was not been overrun, I had many N7 squads fighting there and they were doing good.
The Quarians were shooting the Rannoch reaper with light weapons as more powerful ones would have killed Shepard too.
They faced sovereign without Thanix cannons.
Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:55 .
#9
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:55
v0rt3x22
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Also - it is implied that there is a winning chance - that is why we go out and rally the forces in the first place.
The crucible only comes in later in the game and is NOT the reason we went out to gather strength in the beginning.
The crucible only comes in later in the game and is NOT the reason we went out to gather strength in the beginning.
#10
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:59
inko1nsiderate
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I think it is because they haven't actually studied real war. Ever. Can you think of a single real war that has ended with every last member of the opposing side dead? That is essentially what it would take to defeat the Reapers.
If not having to destroy every last member of the enemy is a conventional victory, then by definition you cannot defeat the Reapers conventionally.
@v0rt3x22:
See, here is the problem: they have weaknesses when entire fleets attack a single dreadnought. There are 200 Reapers seen in ME3 videos. There are not 200 fleets in the galaxy. So even if you gang up on them, the numbers just don't work out. Especially when in-game it is stated that a Dreadnought class Reaper can 1 shot the galaxy's Dreadnoughts. Casualties are pretty much the only thing you can guarantee.
Not to mention, during the course of the game:
-The Batarian fleet is essentially non-existant
-The Alliance has lost an entire fleet, has had significant damage to major population, economic, and industrial production centers as well as catastrophic damage to supply line and communication infrastructure.
-The Turians had lost several Dreadnoughts, as well as a decimated command structure.
-The Quarians lost many ships against the Geth.
-The Geth lost a dreadnought
-You can lose either the Geth or the Quarians entirely
-The Krogan don't have ships and are a logistics nightmare
These factors reduce sheer military power, military effectiveness, as well as ability to wage war against the Reapers.
If not having to destroy every last member of the enemy is a conventional victory, then by definition you cannot defeat the Reapers conventionally.
@v0rt3x22:
See, here is the problem: they have weaknesses when entire fleets attack a single dreadnought. There are 200 Reapers seen in ME3 videos. There are not 200 fleets in the galaxy. So even if you gang up on them, the numbers just don't work out. Especially when in-game it is stated that a Dreadnought class Reaper can 1 shot the galaxy's Dreadnoughts. Casualties are pretty much the only thing you can guarantee.
Not to mention, during the course of the game:
-The Batarian fleet is essentially non-existant
-The Alliance has lost an entire fleet, has had significant damage to major population, economic, and industrial production centers as well as catastrophic damage to supply line and communication infrastructure.
-The Turians had lost several Dreadnoughts, as well as a decimated command structure.
-The Quarians lost many ships against the Geth.
-The Geth lost a dreadnought
-You can lose either the Geth or the Quarians entirely
-The Krogan don't have ships and are a logistics nightmare
These factors reduce sheer military power, military effectiveness, as well as ability to wage war against the Reapers.
Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:04 .
#11
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 12:59
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@v0rt3x, Thanks for taking the time to reply.
If you notice, the Citadel defenses and Alliance (depending on choices, of course) were losing pretty badly while Sovereign was still in the fight. They took him out while he was at his most vulnerable.
It could be argued that your "systematic victory" theory, while good can be rebutted with the events in game. It could be said that the situation you descirbed would be very similer to the battle for Earth because the Reapers would gather their forces and head to where the resistance is gathered. I think a more effective version of what you're thinking of is taking out isolated Reapers, which would be effective, but slow. It might mean the sacrifice of the civilian populations. Though I might be misunderstanding what you're saying.
You do make good counter arguments to my Turian and Tuchanka points. Creativity and team work do create results.
If you notice, the Citadel defenses and Alliance (depending on choices, of course) were losing pretty badly while Sovereign was still in the fight. They took him out while he was at his most vulnerable.
It could be argued that your "systematic victory" theory, while good can be rebutted with the events in game. It could be said that the situation you descirbed would be very similer to the battle for Earth because the Reapers would gather their forces and head to where the resistance is gathered. I think a more effective version of what you're thinking of is taking out isolated Reapers, which would be effective, but slow. It might mean the sacrifice of the civilian populations. Though I might be misunderstanding what you're saying.
You do make good counter arguments to my Turian and Tuchanka points. Creativity and team work do create results.
#12
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:00
Toxic Waste
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One hand held nuke destroyed a reaper. That makes me believe the war could be won conventionally.
#13
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:00
inko1nsiderate
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v0rt3x22 wrote...
Also - it is implied that there is a winning chance - that is why we go out and rally the forces in the first place.
The crucible only comes in later in the game and is NOT the reason we went out to gather strength in the beginning.
Wait, what? Hackette sends you to Mars (less than 20 minutes into the game) flat out saying:
'found a way to defeat Reapers' 'only way'
Less than 20 minutes later it turns out this thing is called the Crucible.
This thing that Hackette said at the start of the game is the 'only way' to defeat the Reapers...
#14
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:03
Leonia
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Because oh stop putting facts into it!
#15
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:03
inko1nsiderate
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Toxic Waste wrote...
One hand held nuke destroyed a reaper. That makes me believe the war could be won conventionally.
One hand held nuke destroyed a Reaper stationary anti-air cannon. Slightly different.
#16
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:04
Gweedotk
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By the time Thessia falls, half of the inhabitable galaxy is under complete control by the Reapers. I got this information directly from Citadel news. By the time we head to Earth, the galaxy map is looking ugly.
Conventional victory is NOT possible. The only place where Reapers are actually being opposed is Palaven and Tuchanka and those are the two most powerful races in the galaxy. The entire Alliance leadership, those on Arcturus Station and Earth is gone in a matter of hours. Thessia falls in a similar time frame.
With the entire galaxy's might concentrated in the assault on Earth, the Reapers still have the upper hand and manage to slowly (but surely) win. Even with an EMS of 20,000, conventional victory just isn't possible. The Reapers are more intelligent than all the Organic races (and even the Geth) and have superior tactics and strategy, if it ever came down to a war that could be won by strategy or tactics (which it could not).
It just isn't possible guys. The cycle has existed for millions of years, with races always fighting back as hard as they could. The Reapers have almost certainly faced losses in these cycles, but they have never been defeated.
Conventional victory is NOT possible. The only place where Reapers are actually being opposed is Palaven and Tuchanka and those are the two most powerful races in the galaxy. The entire Alliance leadership, those on Arcturus Station and Earth is gone in a matter of hours. Thessia falls in a similar time frame.
With the entire galaxy's might concentrated in the assault on Earth, the Reapers still have the upper hand and manage to slowly (but surely) win. Even with an EMS of 20,000, conventional victory just isn't possible. The Reapers are more intelligent than all the Organic races (and even the Geth) and have superior tactics and strategy, if it ever came down to a war that could be won by strategy or tactics (which it could not).
It just isn't possible guys. The cycle has existed for millions of years, with races always fighting back as hard as they could. The Reapers have almost certainly faced losses in these cycles, but they have never been defeated.
Modifié par Gweedotk, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:12 .
#17
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:04
v0rt3x22
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inko1nsiderate wrote...
v0rt3x22 wrote...
Also - it is implied that there is a winning chance - that is why we go out and rally the forces in the first place.
The crucible only comes in later in the game and is NOT the reason we went out to gather strength in the beginning.
Wait, what? Hackette sends you to Mars (less than 20 minutes into the game) flat out saying:
'found a way to defeat Reapers' 'only way'
Less than 20 minutes later it turns out this thing is called the Crucible.
This thing that Hackette said at the start of the game is the 'only way' to defeat the Reapers...
If that's true - then sorry. I was under the impression that Earth is under attack and Shepard is going around and saying that we need help on that front.
I wasn't sure it was because of the crucible (at that point).
At one point I was considering blowing up the citadel - to prevent the reapers from warping in from Dark Space (since the citadel is a gigantic relay that links to there) - but that would actually bring about our doom.
(thank god I'm not in command
) It would bring about our doom because the Reapers flew to our galaxy manually anyway
Modifié par v0rt3x22, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:07 .
#18
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:06
Galbrant
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There are many variables I'm willing to bet that Bioware didn't take into account:
http://social.biowar...0127/4#12941345
http://social.biowar...0127/4#12941345
Modifié par Galbrant, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:06 .
#19
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:07
Mathias
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Simply put, read Codex entries on the Reapers and the Reaper War in ME3. There seemed to be conflicting opinions with the writers in ME3. One side wanted to depict the Reapers as unstoppable while the other side wanted to depict them as just very powerful.
A Reaper Capital Ship's kinetic barriers cannot withstand the firepower of 4 dreadnoughts simultanously. How many ships were firing on the Reaper fleet at the beginning of the final battle? I actually have a problem with the start of that battle. The Sword Fleet was raining down a hailstorm of cannons on the Reapers and we didn't see any Reaper get destroyed by this which contradicts that codex entry.
But also read up on the battle for Palavan and how the Turian Fleet used a good strategy to take down a number of Capital Ships before they could counterattack. It kept being suggested throughout the series that you can defeat the Reapers conventionally, but that idea kept getting reeled back in.
A Reaper Capital Ship's kinetic barriers cannot withstand the firepower of 4 dreadnoughts simultanously. How many ships were firing on the Reaper fleet at the beginning of the final battle? I actually have a problem with the start of that battle. The Sword Fleet was raining down a hailstorm of cannons on the Reapers and we didn't see any Reaper get destroyed by this which contradicts that codex entry.
But also read up on the battle for Palavan and how the Turian Fleet used a good strategy to take down a number of Capital Ships before they could counterattack. It kept being suggested throughout the series that you can defeat the Reapers conventionally, but that idea kept getting reeled back in.
#20
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:08
v0rt3x22
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The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.
Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?
Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?
#21
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:08
billywaffles
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There is no point in arguing, bioware could even give an official statement that it is impossible and some people would still think that it is possible.
It is the classic Metallica vs Megadeth. No point in arguing here really.
It is the classic Metallica vs Megadeth. No point in arguing here really.
#22
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:08
inko1nsiderate
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Galbrant wrote...
There are many variables I'm willing to bet that Bioware didn't take into account:
http://social.biowar...0127/4#12941345
To that I say, there are many variables you are not taking into account:
http://social.biowar.../index/11814974
#23
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:09
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
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v0rt3x22 wrote...
The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.
Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?
Eh, Gamble said that it happened on Twitter. I consider everything that's said on Twitter to be false.
#24
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:09
v0rt3x22
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The Mad Hanar wrote...
v0rt3x22 wrote...
The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.
Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?
Eh, Gamble said that it happened on Twitter. I consider everything that's said on Twitter to be false.
sorry I don't understand what you're saying - can you elaborate?
#25
Posté 03 juillet 2012 - 01:10
iAFKinMassEffect3
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Gweedotk wrote...
No guys. By the time Thessia falls, half of the inhabitable galaxy is under complete control by the Reapers. I got this information directly from Citadel news. By the time we head to Earth, the galaxy map is looking ugly.
Conventional victory is NOT possible. The only place where Reapers are actually being opposed is Palaven and Tuchanka and those are the two most powerful races in the galaxy. The entire Alliance leadership, those on Arcturus Station and Earth is gone in a matter of hours. Thessia falls in a similar time frame.
With the entire galaxy's might concentrated in the assault on Earth, the Reapers still have the upper hand and manage to slowly (but surely) win. Even with an EMS of 20,000, conventional victory just isn't possible. The Reapers are more intelligent than all the Organic races (and even the Geth) and have superior tactics and strategy, if it ever came down to a war that could be won by strategy or tactics (which it could not).
It just isn't possible guys. The cycle has existed for millions of years, with races always fighting back as hard as they could. The Reapers have almost certainly faced losses in these cycles, but they have never been defeated.
If they found actual plans for ancient weapons or ancient weapons themselves then it would be possible.
The Quarian fleet fully upgraded as they were could take on the Reapers, like the reaper themselves they were made to seem weaker to progress the story to something silly.
Its ok making 1 seem weaker but then making the other seem weaker too is a bit silly you may as well not make the Reapers seem weaker.
But anyway, krogan ground support with asari and elcor helping could defeat the ground force troops.
The humans, Salarian and Turians doing the planning would make it a lot easy.
Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:11 .
