676 réponses à ce sujet

[palician]

Megadeth all the way

[JediMike2372]

Asharad Hett wrote...

The Normandy never fired it's cannon, and this is another asset neglected by BW.  The cannon should have been in the game, and should have been used often.

Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing.  Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

And Dave Mustaine rulz!  

Modifié par JediMike2372, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:48 .

[DEATHSCOPE]

irishScott3 wrote...

Biotic Flash Kick wrote...

Because if a magical DXM can fused metal to flesh without harm
i should be able to shoot reapers in the face with an armada of thanix cannons and missiles

ONE CAIN SHOT = DEAD REAPER

That wasn't a full reaper, that was an artillary piece.  You might as well say "I took out a Howitzer with an RPG.  One RPG = dead Aircraft Carrier".

Also, chemotherapy can sometimes cure many cancers.  We have computers that can do trillions of computations per second.  We've landed on the moon.  But we still can't cure the common cold.

Actually it was a Destroyer with a Hades Cannon addon. If one nuke can kill a small destroyer, you need at least ten for the big ones.

[ArchDuck]

babachewie wrote...

Im playing ME3 again and both Liara and Hackett both state at the beginning that we cannot win this conventionally. I would think the Top guy in the Alliance Military would know what he's talking about.

I would say he doesn't.

[Dusen]

JediMike2372 wrote...

Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing.  Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

And Dave Mustaine rulz!  

According to the codex, Thanix cannons were developed by the turians and supposedly installed on everyone's ships by ME2. They allowed the Normandy to destroy the Collector cruiser with minimul effort. The galaxy apparently uninstalled them before ME3.

[ArchDuck]

JediMike2372 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

The Normandy never fired it's cannon, and this is another asset neglected by BW.  The cannon should have been in the game, and should have been used often.

Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing.  Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

Actually I believe the codex states the turian, alliance and asari fleets had all been retrofitted with them.

*ninja'd

Modifié par ArchDuck, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[Kamfrenchie]

babachewie wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Im playing ME3 again and both Liara and Hackett both state at the beginning that we cannot win this conventionally. I would think the Top guy in the Alliance Military would know what he's talking about.

hackett is a tool.
History is full of incompetent generals.
Just look at ww1 or the allies at beginning of ww2, or the russians generals after the purge, or the generalsn in vietnam and indochin, or the corrupt guys who support bad weapon projects.

or just look at th  amirals/defense committee at the bginning of me3.
bunch of tools


As for the on that get killed by a cain, it is a reaper, with a hades canon mounted on it. The hades canon is an AA gun that can be mounted on the back of a destroyer sized reaper.

What a stupid and baseless response with no evidence to back it up. So just because you have the history channel you know a thing or two about war or decision making right? Well I was in the military and served under great leadership. I think I know a thing or two about spoting a good leader who knows what he's doin. Also if they could be beaten conventionally then they would of be been beaten conventionally. Especially after the refuse ending. I dont see how thats not understood. You can write all the fan fiction you want and come up with all kinds of bogus bullcrap reasons like incomptent generals or whatever lame and sad excuse, but whatever bioware says can happen is what can happen. If they created it so that they could of been beaten that way, it would of been in there.

I don't have the history channel, sir, I don't live in the US. We have books and arte in france don't you? And I have several members of my famili in the military.

So you were in the military and you can tell if a video game character is a good leader without looking at his results? In the space navy to top it off? what is this joke? Hackett is like Maurice Gamelin, except Gamelin was somewha competent at what he did and got promoted for bad reasons.
So what, you were under good and bad leaders so you can compare ?

Make me laugh more tough guy

Yes everyone is just insisting on how they can't be beaten conventionnaly, because the writers don't want you to question the ass pull crucible. Becaus unconventional means mac guffin... i thought the vietcong use nonconventionnl atctics but oh well.

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:46 .

[Zardoc]

Shouldn't the question be "Why do people keep insisting that conventional victory isn't possible?"?

[Asharad Hett]

JediMike2372 wrote...
Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing. 

Because bad writting.  It kicked ass in ME2.

JediMike2372 wrote...
Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

We had fleets equipped with Thannix, yet they were never used by Bioware's writers. 

If the writers elected to use the resources developed in the first 2 games, BW could have written a believable conventional victory.  Depending upon your Shepard's choices, the endings could have varied from Grimdark failure to bittersweet victory.

The fact that BW neglected those resources does not mean that conventional victory was impossible.  I figure the poor writting is the RL equivalent of poor military command.  Our military neglected to use every means available, and trusted our fate to a questionable device that has failed to provide victory in previous cycles.

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Asharad Hett wrote...

JediMike2372 wrote...
Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing. 

Because bad writting.  It kicked ass in ME2.

JediMike2372 wrote...
Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

We had fleets equipped with Thannix, yet they were never used by Bioware's writers. 

If the writers elected to use the resources developed in the first 2 games, BW could have written a believable conventional victory.  Depending upon your Shepard's choices, the endings could have varied from Grimdark failure to bittersweet victory.

The fact that BW neglected those resources does not mean that conventional victory was impossible.  I figure the poor writting is the RL equivalent of poor military command.  Our military neglected to use every means available, and trusted our fate to a questionable device that has failed to provide victory in previous cycles.

Here here!

[humes spork]

JediMike2372 wrote...

Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?

People around here think they're space magic guns that kill Reapers in one shot in combat, and shoot food, war materiel and a limitless supply of soldiers outside combat.

In "reality" they're a gun upgrade reverse engineered from Sovereign's hulk that a good chunk, but nowhere near all, the naval forces in the galaxy have. Thanix cannons give organic ships the monstrous advantage over what they had before of actually being able to dent Reaper kinetic barriers. No, that last bit is not facetiousness. All thanix cannons allow organic races to do above what they could before is actually damage a Reaper.

It became notorious for disabling and not even destroying outright a heavy transport that looks to be MacGuyvered out of an asteroid, scrap metal, and duct tape, that gets utterly annihilated even without Thanix Cannons! by a light cruiser designed for stealth recon opposed to actual combat.

Modifié par humes spork, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[Hudathan]

ArchDuck wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Im playing ME3 again and both Liara and Hackett both state at the beginning that we cannot win this conventionally. I would think the Top guy in the Alliance Military would know what he's talking about.

I would say he doesn't.

What actually happens in the story says he does.

Zardoc wrote...

Shouldn't the question be "Why do people keep insisting that conventional victory isn't possible?"?

Because that's what happens in the story.

[humes spork]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Dude, one fleet beat sovereign.

One fleet destroyed Sovereign when it was already incapacitated from its assuming direct control over Saren.

Meanwhile, twelve Sovereign-class Reapers destroyed Arcturus station and routed three of the Alliance's eight fleets complete with post-Sovereign upgrades, including Thanix Cannons!, to the point one fleet was sacrificed in its entirety to screen for the other two's full retreat.

[Ticonderoga117]

humes spork wrote...
One fleet destroyed Sovereign when it was already incapacitated from its assuming direct control over Saren.

Meanwhile, twelve Sovereign-class Reapers destroyed Arcturus station and routed three of the Alliance's eight fleets complete with post-Sovereign upgrades, including Thanix Cannons!, to the point one fleet was sacrificed in its entirety to screen for the other two's full retreat.

With people like the Defense Commitee leading them... yeah. Reminds me of This scene from SpaceBalls.

[humes spork]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

With people like the Defense Commitee leading them... yeah.

Give me a goddamn break.

Twelve Reapers versus three entire Alliance fleets armed with Thanix Cannons! should have been a turkey shoot. Going off codex numbers and figuring an average number of vessels per fleet, that's over a hundred ships including four dreads. That's only ten-to-one odds, when the Alliance ships have Thanix Cannons!. An ensign straight out of the naval academy with a working finger and the ability to say "fire!" would have been able to win that one, let alone The Admiral Who Killed Sovereign and Didn't Have Thanix Cannons! at the Time.

That is, if conventional victory was as possible as some would make it out to be.

Modifié par humes spork, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:57 .

[Ticonderoga117]

humes spork wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

With people like the Defense Commitee leading them... yeah.

Give me a goddamn break.

Twelve Reapers versus three entire Alliance fleets armed with Thanix Cannons! should have been a turkey shoot. An ensign straight out of the naval academy with a working finger and the ability to say "fire!" would have been able to win that one, let alone The Admiral Who Killed Sovereign and Didn't Have Thanix Cannons! at the Time.

That is, if conventional victory was as possible as some would make it out to be.

All the more evidence for "Let's badly write the intro and force the idea of a convient plot device that also contains a Deus Ex Machina".

Seriously, it SHOULD have been a turkey shoot, but then, how would GlowBoy turn up and force an artificial dilemma onto the player? If you work it out, tell Mac Walters would ya?

[humes spork]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Seriously, it SHOULD have been a turkey shoot, but then, how would GlowBoy turn up and force an artificial dilemma onto the player? If you work it out, tell Mac Walters would ya?

In other words, this is what's happening. Just in case you're lazy,

humes spork wrote...

This is the point.

You're arguing what should have been as if it is. This is a conversation about what is. This is not a conversation about what the game is not, or vastly more importantly this is not a conversation about what the game should have been. Is and ought are two completely different propositions. There is a huge difference between the two.

If you believe things ought to have been different, you are more than free to do so. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. To a certain extent, I actually agree with that opinion. Just because you believe things ought to have been different doesn't mean that what it is changes.

In the product we are given, conventional victory is impossible. You dislike that, we get that. You believe conventional victory should have been possible. That doesn't change that conventional victory is impossible, and what should have been possible is an entirely different topic. Arguing that it does, or that they are the same thing, makes you look very silly.

That, or you're grossly overstating the importance and power of Thanix Cannons!.

Because a glorified MacGuyvered heavy transport that got annihilated anyways by a light cruiser designed for stealth recon and not heavy combat without Thanix Cannons! is totally the equivalent of a two-kilometer dreadnought designed for the singular purpose of exterminating organic life.

Modifié par humes spork, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[v TricKy v]

I find it way funny how people argue about how strong the Reapers are when it was really inconsistent through the series. Do you remember the Rannoch Destroyer and that it took multiple ships firing? The Codex states that one Cruiser can take out a Destroyer. So that right there was just a dramatic fight for the sake of it. It proves nothing.

[Dan Dark]

humes spork wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Seriously, it SHOULD have been a turkey shoot, but then, how would GlowBoy turn up and force an artificial dilemma onto the player? If you work it out, tell Mac Walters would ya?

In other words, this is what's happening. Just in case you're lazy,

humes spork wrote...

This is the point.

You're arguing what should have been as if it is. This is a conversation about what is. This is not a conversation about what the game is not, or vastly more importantly this is not a conversation about what the game should have been. Is and ought are two completely different propositions. There is a huge difference between the two.

If you believe things ought to have been different, you are more than free to do so. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. To a certain extent, I actually agree with that opinion. Just because you believe things ought to have been different doesn't mean that what it is changes.

In the product we are given, conventional victory is impossible. You dislike that, we get that. You believe conventional victory should have been possible. That doesn't change that conventional victory is impossible, and what should have been possible is an entirely different topic. Arguing that it does, or that they are the same thing, makes you look very silly.

That, or you're grossly overstating the importance and power of Thanix Cannons!.

Because a glorified MacGuyvered heavy transport that got annihilated anyways by a light cruiser designed for stealth recon and not heavy combat without Thanix Cannons! is totally the equivalent of a two-kilometer dreadnought designed for the singular purpose of exterminating organic life.

So... in other words, you're saying we should all just pack up and go home, because the "writers" decide to wave their hands and say "Nope, it's not possible"? We're not allowed to point out glaring flaws in game canon and logic? Or voice displeasure with a product we purchased that did not meet our expectations?

[humes spork]

Dan Dark wrote...

So... in other words, you're saying we should all just pack up and go home, because the "writers" decide to wave their hands and say "Nope, it's not possible"? We're not allowed to point out glaring flaws in game canon and logic? Or voice displeasure with a product we purchased that did not meet our expectations?

You're more than free to do so, just don't put pretense while doing it by arguing the canon is what it isn't.

[BerzerkGene]

JediMike2372 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

The Normandy never fired it's cannon, and this is another asset neglected by BW.  The cannon should have been in the game, and should have been used often.

Thanix cannon.  I keep seeing a lot about that and what did it do?  Nothing.  Personally I believe that they are not one-shot-one-kill weopons.  I think they are powerful, but as far as I was aware, only the Normandy had a Thanix.  And there is no way one ship is going to take out the entire Reaper fleet.

And Dave Mustaine rulz!  

They wouldn't be one shot, but considering they would be on a similar scale of power with the Reapers own guns, which DO one shot...
Also there wasmore than one.
"After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent
three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup,
the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with
much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians
introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon.
The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and
tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero.
The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds.
The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on
most fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance
military and is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2."Okay to turians invented this masively powerful gun. They obviously have them. It would be stupid not to.
The alliance have them, says so right there. In ze codex.

[MerchantGOL]

Were is the proof that a thanix can do crap to a reaper?

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[BerzerkGene]

TK514 wrote...

The reason people believe conventional victory is possible is because otherwise the main plot of the game makes no sense and is a waste of time.

Remember, we're trying to unite the galaxy to "Take back Earth", not to "Escort the Crucible".

If we are supposed to believe that a conventional victory is impossible, then the whole "Get the Salarians to help the Krogan so the Krogan will help the Turians so the Turians will help with Earth" series of events is a colossal waste of time, and makes no logical sense. Really, if the galaxy is pinning its hopes on the 'We don't know how it works, what it does, or how to find the key to start it' Crucible (which frankly stretches credulity well beyond the breaking point), then leaving the militaries of the galaxy right where they are, pinning down Reaper forces while we build the thing, is the best possible use of the galaxy's armed forces. All you'd need to do then is get out the key personnel and resources to build your hail mary. If conventional victory is impossible, you can ignore the Turians and Krogan altogether, and go straight to the Salarians and Quarians/Geth, then pick up a few Asari when you get the chance.

That's why people want to believe conventional victory is possible. Because the alternative is that you just spent 40 hours or whatever watching your character waste 3/4ths of it initiating and pursuing the stupidest sequence of actions they could have chosen to reach the intended outcome. An outcome which is, itself, not internally consistent with the rest of the narrative, starting way back in ME1.

Good points. It really is strange people think the thing with a 0% success rate will actually help. Making a unified force against such a powerful enemy makes sense. Also someone really should have been able to figure out that is was a giant battery. They cannot be that stupid.

irishScott3 wrote...
Actually, escorting the crucible is exactly what you're uniting the
galaxy to do.  Rallying the other forces is a combination of delaying
action and mustering the necessarry forces to actually get the crucible
where it needs to go.

You guys are just thinking about this in too binary a way.

Small
conventional victories are possible, much like the small conventional
victories of the Taliban over US forces in Afghanistan.  But full
conventional victory just isn't doable.  Just because the Turians were
good enough to take out 4 Reaper Capital ships doesn't mean everyone
else can take out 400.

Your suggestion of going straight to the
Salarians and Quarians/Geth is ludicrious given the odds they would
face.  The crucible would never make it to the citadel and would be
wiped out en-route.  Remember the crucible is analagous to the Atomic
bom in WWII.  By your logic the Enola Gay should have just been flown
unescorted through the heart of Japanese AA defenses because hey, we've
got the bomb! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

You mostly get them all to help build the crucible.
Going to the salarians and geth/quarians makes a lot of sense. The Salarians are your techxperts, the geth are the backbone of your ground army(or they really should be) With a huge fleet too, while the quarians have the biggest fleet. Uniting them before the big war that somewhat hampers their overall effectiveness would be a good thing. True, the Geth would not then be true ai because njo reaper code, blah blah blah.
The only reaosn the citadel is surrounded by reapers is cause TIM let them know what was going on. If he had not, then getting the crucible to the citadel would have been a snap.

Thats a bad comparison. That bomb helped end the war earlier, it was ineviatable they were going to lose. That weapon just hammered the point home.

Theres also the fact there was no negotiation with Harbinger or Sovereign. The Catalyst knows everything they know. But only at the very end, despite the fact you sitll have no chance at beating him, he decides to give you a break? I really don't think mercy or pity is in his vocabulary. Husks and the blood of trillions should prove that.

[Meltemph]

Why do people keep insisting that conventional victory is possible?

The writers decided to take it to the degree they did with the reapers, by giving them high numbers and making them supervillan ships. They could have easily wrote it where they found out a virus with the reaper code that significantly weakened them, but no, we had to have a "philisophical debate", becasue as we all know, ME was SO highbrow.

[BerzerkGene]

Calibrations Expert wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.

Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?

Well they might as well have tried their luck.

So the Reapers haven't even arrived yet, the next cycle has plenty of time and resources to make this thing, maybe they can make it better than the last cycle?

So they build it, talk to this being of light thing, then get the 3 choices. Maybe they decided to evolve and synhesize, maybe they decided to get a free robot army, or maybe they didn't have any synthetics that they particularly cared about and destroyed the reapers.

You don't try your luck with a solution that has never worked, especially when galactic civilisation is riding on it.
Just setting up a giant defense line around the citadel, or better yet, blowing it up, would make the trap pointless, as well as have the potential of destroying the Reapers leadership. All Shep would have to do is call liara, tell her to put that in the capsules and there, easy conventional victory. Especially if other technology is recorded and super especially if the yahg find it. They would kick the crap out of the Reapers, and they would not pick their options if presented with them.