676 réponses à ce sujet

[thefallen2far]

Zero132132 wrote...

You're missing the point. I don't give a **** AT ALL that he wasn't attacking the alliance ships. If anything, that's my point; he was so unconcerned with the massive amount of fire heading his way that he didn't even bother fighting back. If I get bit by an ant, I squish it; he didn't even go that far. It isn't that he was SOOO badass at killing ****. I mean, the one-hit-KO weapon is kickass, but the main point is that the shields are so powerful that he doesn't even bother fighting back while ships shoot at him.


Also, I'm 90% sure that it was Vigil, not Saren, that said he would be destroyed.

So is your point that an entire fleet of Reapers would be worse than one Reaper and a fleet of geth? I'm kind of confused about the message you're trying to send.

You see it that way because you're trying to justify the omnipotence established in the last game so the plot device of the Catalyst makes sense. 

And you were right, it was Vigil.  I was mistaken about that.  Says that he would be destroyed on a direct assault, and it was right.  He had an Armada of Geth ships [which you can successfully convert to your side] , suprise assault and a simple objective of opening a portal.  He failed.  You can see it as him.... using all his power to do something as stupid as concentrate all his power into reanimating a dead spectre for no reason because he could have defended himself indefinately [he didn't even have to close the arms of the citadel, he could have handled the entire fleet himself inside, with the war raging on outside by himself, he just liked the view inside], but the fact is you're told that he was vulnerable without the Geth, suprise attack, no reinforcements and subterfuge, and even with all those on his side, he still failed.  You can forget all that all you want so your Catalyst plot device is better for you, but to me, the biggest failure of ME3 was making them as plot armor protected as Kai Lang.

[Ticonderoga117]

humes spork wrote...
Well, that's the problem. In this case the Reapers' supplies are your own citizens. It's not exactly couth to go nuking your own populations willy-nilly.

Well I was going to say free them and arm them via a commando raid or something. Or, you do nuke them. While not couth, you're actually doing them a favor. They don't get turned into husks and fight those who have not been transformed.

And, about the Seven Years' War...aw, screw it. This thread's just going in circles at this point anyways. Story time, it's relevant to today (you'll see why in the long run).

*MoreAwesomeHistorySnip

Heh, funny how that works.
As a side note, I live nearby that butt end of nowhere.

[TrollDemon]

People say you can win conventionally, I say the galaxy in its present state can't. 

Look at the
Turians, the most powerful naval force in the Citadel Space was being destroyed
left and right, their world burning right before their eyes as they could do
nothing to stop it and they had to resort to infilitrating Reaper ships, risking indoctrination, and blowing them up from the inside out with their own people still in it. It still wasn't enough as it only bought the Turians time.



The Humans? Right off the bat Arcturus Station, the capitol of the Alliance
Military is wiped off the galactic map. Our fleets orbiting the cradle of
humanity are annihilated in mere moments of the Reapers arrival and Earth falls
within hours of the Reapers landing.



The Quarians and Geth? They were slaughtering each other until Shepard arrived
on Rannoch. By that time, both sides took heavy losses. The Quarians and their
fleets could barely hold their own against Indoctrinated Geth forces and the
Geth themselves took heavy losses with the destruction of their flagship and their dyson sphere. The Quarian ships follow the glass cannon trope. They can dish damage but they're civilian ships. They won't last long.



The Krogan? They don't even have fleets or anything related to a space navy. Their military, like their people, were neutered after the Krogan
Rebellions and their post war numbers aren't high enough to fight against
something unending like the Reapers. If the Reapers wanted to, they'd just indoctrinate and huskify Krogan Troops. That's what they did to the Protheans. If they can't win on the ground, then the Reapers can just bombard them from orbit if need be.



The Asari? . Hit and run tactics may win battles, but the Reapers don't need
resources, the Asari do, and in a straight up fight the most advanced race in the
galaxy is nothing. Look at Thessia. It burned like Palaven and
Earth. In the long run, the Asari will be destroyed.

The Batarians? They're near-extinct, and I don't trust the new Leviathan revelation considering most of their goverment was indoctrinated and allowed the Reapers to just come rolling in.

The Reapers are just too powerful. The Destroyers can take down dreadnaught sized vessels, the Capitol Ships can take the pain like a sponge and dish out. Thanix cannons cannot win battles alone, and the Reapers have a seemingly infinite supply of infantry and intelligence thanks to Huskification and Indoctrination.



Shepard may have united the known galaxy, but the known galaxy, in its current military
strength will definitely lose to the Reapers in an all out fight. It was in the worst possible scenario it could have been. Unprepared and each race looking out for their own.  They had no time to prepare because the Council was too pig-headed to do anything to prepare regardless of the evidence Shepard showed them. Had they actually prepared in the 2-3 years prior to Mass Effect 3, then yes, I do believe the Galaxy might have had a chance to win conventionally, and I stress might.

I though Cerberus might become a central ally in Mass Effect 3 even if Shepard flipped them off, but alas, it seems like they became the Big bad in place of the Big bad. Mass Effect 2 should have focused on taking down Cerberus instead of the Collectors. Ah, what could have been.

 edit: Whoa....never copying from word again

Modifié par TrollDemon, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[BerzerkGene]

humes spork wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Thanix cannons are never mentioned at all. The fact they're never used should give you a good idea of how it was so easy to destroy three entire fleets.

The codex states Thanix Cannons! are prevalent in the Alliance fleet and that most Alliance ships have been retrofitted to include them. Are you seriously suggesting the Alliance put all the ships that don't have Thanix Cannons! into three fleets and proceeded to use those fleets to guard its own center of government?

Because, that's what it takes to suggest Thanix Cannons! weren't used at that point.

Not suggesting that at all. But you never see them in the battle for the fate of the galaxy, do you? Either the reapers brought an absurd amount of force, even more than shown, or its just something else lazied out. I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't do that either. The tactics shown are horrible at best. Suicidal at worst.
At this point i'm just thinking it was too expensive or something to show these guns in action, no matter how good or bad they are meant to be.

humes spork wrote...
Okay, first, Thanix Cannons! don't "ignore" barriers, as bypassing that level of protection altogether as if it were a phasic round from ME1. The nature of the weapon is such that it overloads the kinetic barriers of its target. Moreover, the codex exposits that it does so of any known kinetic barrier, that is to say any kinetic barriers developed and used by organics. The effect of Thanix Cannons! on Reaper barriers and armor is, as of the beginning of ME3, an unknown as they had never before been used against Reapers in combat . And given the power of Reaper kinetic barriers as depicted in ME1 and exposited in ME3 to completely ignore any "conventional" organic weapon, to say that a Thanix Cannon! can penetrate Reaper kinetic barriers at all is a very tall order. The exposition of the power level of Thanix Cannons! in the codex is comparative to organic weapons, barriers and armor.

Second, Thanix Cannons! are powerful for the fact they're thermal and kinetic energy weapons opposed to more conventional kinetic (mass drivers) or dark energy (javelin missiles, disruptor torpedoes) weapons known to organics. That's explicitly and abundantly clear in the ME2 codex entry on Thanix Cannons!.

Third, yes, I'd consider destroying the Collector cruiser with minor, largely cosmetic damage and the loss of one hand annihilating the damn thing. Especially for having taken a glancing blow from a weapon which, if you're correct in your assumption, destroys dreadnoughts in one shot. And, the SR-2 would be a frigate for its designated role; in terms of displacement, armor and armament (the relevant factors here) it's right there with cruisers.

Ignore, "pierce". Same effect. What makes reaper barriers unknown exactly? It does not say known council race barriers. I would assume they tested it on sovereigns armour as well. Producing an extremely powerful barrier to test it on would be pragmatic too, especially given Sovereigns power.

Okay, yeah. I'm sure thats not the peak of technology, no reason it could not be enhanced.

Fair enough. I consider 'annihlate' to be destroying them without them actually shooting you at all. The collector beam is reaper based, not reaper level. They wouldn't want it falling into someone elses hands on the off chance they managed to survive the jump and invade.
I don't think it could shear dreadnoughts, but even when its dodging, it crippled the first normandy in 2 shots. Those were glancing blows too. Joker manages to dodge themproperly this time. probably because they're not being chased. So maybe cruiser level firepower, yeah. Its also a lot more spammable than reaper lasers(barring harbinger, whos the boss).

humes spork wrote...

We never said that guns can shoot supplies...That could still be a problem. The point is moot since we don't know.

I don't know when you came into this thread or whose posts you have or haven't been paying attention too, but just speaking for myself my entire point revolves primarily around logistics and conventional victory being impossible due to the unsustainability of the war effort. In this thread and others.

I came into the thread near the start.
You would have to win fairly quickly, thats obvious. Or establish some sort of line in the sand and go from there. But unless you can in fact beat the reapers around earth, the rest doesn't matter. When you defeat them, then logistical problems take precedence.
Your point would be in the long run its impossible. Short term logistics mean little in a galaxy deciding battle. I'm talking primarily about the battle above earth. Long term i agree its a definite problem, solveable if you, say, make the main base Rannoch, which would be perfect for the Quarians and Turians, not sure about humans and stuff. If not, then the geth have stations and things for them. Some races also could pitch in a little more. The Hanar, for example.

[Zero132132]

thefallen2far wrote...

You see it that way because you're trying to justify the omnipotence established in the last game so the plot device of the Catalyst makes sense. 

And you were right, it was Vigil.  I was mistaken about that.  Says that he would be destroyed on a direct assault, and it was right.  He had an Armada of Geth ships [which you can successfully convert to your side] , suprise assault and a simple objective of opening a portal.  He failed.  You can see it as him.... using all his power to do something as stupid as concentrate all his power into reanimating a dead spectre for no reason because he could have defended himself indefinately [he didn't even have to close the arms of the citadel, he could have handled the entire fleet himself inside, with the war raging on outside by himself, he just liked the view inside], but the fact is you're told that he was vulnerable without the Geth, suprise attack, no reinforcements and subterfuge, and even with all those on his side, he still failed.  You can forget all that all you want so your Catalyst plot device is better for you, but to me, the biggest failure of ME3 was making them as plot armor protected as Kai Lang.

Yeah, it was really stupid of Sovereign to divert any attention to Saren, but you're dismissing the point completely; that Sovereign's shields made him nearly invulnerable. I say 'nearly' rather than 'completely' because I mean it. Being attacked by all of galactic civilization's ships at the same time is no picnic. The Geth provided an early diversion. But by the end of that sequence, the cutscene shows a bunch of ships firing only at him, with the Geth already out of the picture. Maybe he couldn't have withstood that kind of onslaught the entire time, but in the Reaper war, how often will a Reaper kindly sit in one place, alone, while a bunch of ships shoot it over and over? He was a sitting duck, and he still was basically fine until his shields went down, and that was only because of Shepard.

You're also revealing your own bias completely; you accuse me of accepting that the Reapers have plot armor, but I actually am arguing that they're substantially WEAKER in ME3 than they were portrayed to be in 1 and 2. I don't think they HAVE plot armor. You actually see some die without overwhelming, absurd amounts of effort in 3.

You choose to believe that Sovereign's shields were nothing special (against demonstration) and ignore the point about a weapon with more than a billion times the energy output of a single dreadnought round only disabled one because you hate the Catalyst. You're all-but admitting it by portraying anyone that disagrees with you as defending the Catalyst. How is his presence at all relevant in this discussion otherwise?

[BerzerkGene]

BerzerkGene wrote...

That weapon was a one shot cripple. It basically sent the reaper from full power to drifting around a star without any consciousness. Who says that was the only shot? While ridiculously powerful, it may have been the only one. We don't know.
Implied in Me1, yes. In ME2, the fact you can kill a baby reaper with small arms fire to weak points make them seem somewhat less powerful.
Dreadnoughts "Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons of TNT, enough to destroy the infrastructure of a mid-sized city and kill half a million people.
 So yeah 4 dreadnoughts could probably do as much damage, although probably not as fast, they would have to shoot at least twice each.

Zero132132 wrote...
He had no shields, which is what made Sovereign so formidable. Besides, that's like saying that because kicking an unprotected baby in the head hard enough a few times will kill it, it's easy (or feasible) to kill adults by kicking them a few times.

Thats not a good comparison, for starters it had inpenetrable armour, a laser beam mouth and is trying to kill you. Only its eyes, chest and mouth (when charging) damaged it at all. The fact that it fails to kill three people when at that stage makes it kind of pathetic.
Their cores are what make Reapers so formidible. The shield is secondary. The core lets them manouvere with reasonable ease, land, and provide them with supposedly limitless power.

Zero132132 wrote...
As for the TNT argument, the Chicxulub crater, the crater associated with the asteroid that triggered the K-T extinction event (end of the dinosaurs) was likely created by an impact equivalent to 96 teratons (96,000,000,000 kilotons) worth of TNT. This crater is 90 km radius, so a bit over 25,000 square kilometers in area. We can see that the rift created on Klendagon runs about a quarter around the planet, and it's wide enough to been seen from space:

Klendagon is about 7,400 km in diameter, so a quarter of the circumference would be over 10,000 km long. It'd have to be about 2.4 km wide to be comparable in surface displacement, which may or may not be the case (looks to be much wider), but this is a glancing blow, not a full hit. Most of the force didn't even hit the planet.

Indeed, but whether that means much is up for debate. Thanks for educating me on the extinction event though, i didn't know all that. 
A smaller planet would not be as tough as earth, yes it was a glancing blow, but there are many variable. While theres nothing dtopping something in space, it could be slowed or changed trajectory from gravitational pull. You add in spinning of a planet, lack of atmosphere, the planets composition and its not perfect, but yes, a lot of firepower would still be required. However, it more than likely just sawed right through where it hit, so it might not have been a true impact, more like a graze. It might be even more powerful. wouldv'e been amusing if the shell came and hit something after a long time in deep space.

Zero132132 wrote...
Anyways, my point is that it's absurdly unlikely that the kind of energy it takes to scar a planet's surface that drastically wouldn't be several orders of magnitude above 38 kilotons of TNT in explosive power.

Sorry for the physics lesson, but seriously, it'd take over a billion shots from a dreadnought to equal the energy output from a glancing blow with a weapon that only disabled a Reaper. They're MUCH weaker in ME3.

Only disabled seems like a bit of an understatement. It ripped through the damn thing. So much so that the interior was almost entirely exposed to vaccum, if not for Cerberus it would likely seem like nothing more than floating scrap. It killed it. The thing was dead. Partially operational, but dead. Like a person with part of their brain missing, still technically alive but not really there.
If we knew the mass of the bullet and how fast it was going, we would be able to get a good idea of how powerful it was. But we don't. for all we know it was some fancy ass technology. that wasn't just mass, might have been the equivilant of a giant railgun. Could have been a giant prototype Thanix that burned through the planet.

But that kind of firepower was what sovereign was taking during the citadel fight. Yep, pretty insufficeint. It might have more to do with taking continous fire rather than overall firepower. That one huge slug...well, i doubt even a several reapers lined up would have been able to stop it. Seems like the dudes who made it put in more power until someone told them to stop.

[BerzerkGene]

Zero132132 wrote...

Yeah, it was really stupid of Sovereign to divert any attention to Saren, but you're dismissing the point completely; that Sovereign's shields made him nearly invulnerable. I say 'nearly' rather than 'completely' because I mean it. Being attacked by all of galactic civilization's ships at the same time is no picnic. The Geth provided an early diversion. But by the end of that sequence, the cutscene shows a bunch of ships firing only at him, with the Geth already out of the picture. Maybe he couldn't have withstood that kind of onslaught the entire time, but in the Reaper war, how often will a Reaper kindly sit in one place, alone, while a bunch of ships shoot it over and over? He was a sitting duck, and he still was basically fine until his shields went down, and that was only because of Shepard.

You're also revealing your own bias completely; you accuse me of accepting that the Reapers have plot armor, but I actually am arguing that they're substantially WEAKER in ME3 than they were portrayed to be in 1 and 2. I don't think they HAVE plot armor. You actually see some die without overwhelming, absurd amounts of effort in 3.

You choose to believe that Sovereign's shields were nothing special (against demonstration) and ignore the point about a weapon with more than a billion times the energy output of a single dreadnought round only disabled one because you hate the Catalyst. You're all-but admitting it by portraying anyone that disagrees with you as defending the Catalyst. How is his presence at all relevant in this discussion otherwise?

I just have to correct you on one point. Sovereign was being shot a little bit by the citadel defence force. Not ALL of galactic civilisation. A bunch of ships firing at him is about 5. Thats not many. He then just ran over a ship. The fleet was mainly focussed on the Geth. He had taken very little actual damage to his shield.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:34 .

[BerzerkGene]

TrollDemon wrote...

People say you can win conventionally, I say the galaxy in its present state can't. 

Look at the Turians, the most powerful naval force in the Citadel Space was being destroyed left and right, their world burning right before their eyes as they could do nothing to stop it and they had to resort to infilitrating Reaper ships, risking indoctrination, and blowing them up from the inside out with their own people still in it. It still wasn't enough as it only bought the Turians time.

Destroyed left and right is an overstatement. They hold their own against the freaking Reapers. They lose the ground war initially, yes. with the subterfuge it basically won them back most of the planet. Even if only for a while, although nothing says otherwise. But would you rather sacrifice a few good men to take out a destroyer/dreadnought, or a ship/many ships.

The Humans? Right off the bat Arcturus Station, the capitol of the Alliance Military is wiped off the galactic map. Our fleets orbiting the cradle of humanity are annihilated in mere moments of the Reapers arrival and Earth falls
within hours of the Reapers landing.

That station was mainly parliment. The president and what have you lived there. It was a command center for the Alliance, but nothing says that all the good admirals live there. After all, admiral hackett was meant to be there. He was not. Also we only lose a total of three fleets.  You still have 4-5. As for Earth, i am truly unsure. But supposedly there were many reapers, and you still only lose the aforementioned fleets.

The Quarians and Geth? They were slaughtering each other until Shepard arrived on Rannoch. By that time, both sides took heavy losses. The Quarians and their fleets could barely hold their own against Indoctrinated Geth forces and the Geth themselves took heavy losses with the destruction of their flagship and their dyson sphere. The Quarian ships follow the glass cannon trope. They can dish damage but they're civilian ships. They won't last long.

If you had got to them sooner, the war might have been averted entirely. However, even with losses they still have the biggest fleets availiable, hundreds of ships. Geth are supposed to be more technologically advanced than most council races and we're not given the exact numbers of Dreadnoughts. " Unbound by the Treaty of Farixen, the synthetic intelligences built almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians.
The software running these ships is in the geth themselves. High
advanced electronic security measures and cyber warfare suites bolster
already formidable firepower.
" One geth dreadnought was able to withstand the entireity of the Quarian fleet. It is unlikely that they simply had one.
The Quarians don't have the firepower(or didnt), but they have the numbers, combiing the two by making peace nets you lots of ships with good tech. The  Quarians also fitted most of their ships with Thanix cannons. Even the civvies.

The Krogan? They don't even have fleets or anything related to a space navy. Their military, like their people, were neutered after the Krogan Rebellions and their post war numbers aren't high enough to fight against
something unending like the Reapers. If the Reapers wanted to, they'd just indoctrinate and huskify Krogan Troops. That's what they did to the Protheans. If they can't win on the ground, then the Reapers can just bombard them from orbit if need be.

Uhh...they do huskify them, what do you think Brutes are? However krogan are excellent shock troops, able to go into things like the Rachni production facility. Not the best example cause shepard is there, but they can contribute.

The Asari? Hit and run tactics may win battles, but the Reapers don't need resources, the Asari do, and in a straight up fight the most advanced race in the galaxy is nothing. Look at Thessia. It burned like Palaven and
Earth. In the long run, the Asari will be destroyed.
Asari make good ground support and they have some of the biggest and most powerful dreadnoughts. The Destiny Ascension even managed to survive an onslaught by the heretic geth for some time. While i agree that it doesn't mean that much, they're physically weaker and have less raw military might than the turians, they could help in other ways, matriarchs and such could be extremely useful advisors and stratgists. There would be scientists with centuries of experience.

The Batarians? They're near-extinct, and I don't trust the new Leviathan revelation considering most of their goverment was indoctrinated and allowed the Reapers to just come rolling in.

Theres still a significant enough fleet for them to be worth 115 war assets(with balak, anyway). The government may be dead, but they still have soldiers and ships to bring to the table. Batarians are meant to be enlisting by the thousands for revenge.

The Reapers are just too powerful. The Destroyers can take down dreadnaught sized vessels, the Capitol Ships can take the pain like a sponge and dish out. Thanix cannons cannot win battles alone, and the Reapers have a seemingly infinite supply of infantry and intelligence thanks to Huskification and Indoctrination.
The Destroyers have never displayed this. The Sovereign class ones do that. The thanix don't have to win the battles alone. Use unconventional thinking, combine some actual military tactics and you have some chance rather than no chance(also helps if everyone you recruit bothers to show up).


Shepard may have united the known galaxy, but the known galaxy, in its current military
strength will definitely lose to the Reapers in an all out fight. It was in the worst possible scenario it could have been. Unprepared and each race looking out for their own.  They had no time to prepare because the Council was too pig-headed to do anything to prepare regardless of the evidence Shepard showed them. Had they actually prepared in the 2-3 years prior to Mass Effect 3, then yes, I do believe the Galaxy might have had a chance to win conventionally, and I stress might.

Not exactly the worst. you still manage to unite them. Worst would be if they fought alone.
You also forgot the Elcor, Volus, Hanar(and drell), Rachni and Terminus fleet(not a race, but they're meant to be significant).
Elcor: Provide transports, cruisers and frigates. Take no significant losses from Reapers. Shipwise anyway.
Volus: You get a seriously badass Dreadnought, provides as many assets as half an entire fleet. You also get a bombing fleet, which would have been extremely useful for hammer team.
Hanar(and drell): Actively engage reaper forces, Drell specialists used in ground and sabotage operations.
Rachni: Oddly lose the ships that were sighted all throughout ME2. Considering the insane breeding speed they should be able to provide Rachni soldiers as shock troops easily enough. At worst, help make ships, weapons and what have you.
Terminus fleet: Provides mech for ground ops(cant be indotrinated or reapised). Also good at sabotage, have a crapload of Vorcha(which also seem to not be able to be reaperised) and generally helping with ships and soldiers.

[Zero132132]

BerzerkGene wrote...

I just have to correct you on one point. Sovereign was being shot a little bit by the citadel defence force. Not ALL of galactic civilisation. A bunch of ships firing at him is about 5. Thats not many. He then just ran over a ship. The fleet was mainly focussed on the Geth. He had taken very little actual damage to his shield.

Yeah, that was hyperbole, but it isn't just 5, and it wasn't just the citadel defense force; it's actually alliance as well. And it's definitely more than 5 ships. Look at this video, starting five minutes in. Hacket says to focus all fire on Sovereign, and even though some of the ships in the background are geth, you can see, specifically around 5:10-5:15, that he's being shot from all angles, and it's doing absolutely nothing to damage him. Until you beat Saren and his shields go down, you don't see a single scratch.

[avenging_teabag]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?

To quote the game's tittle screen:

The allied forces are fighting back and winning in key locations.

Or something to that effect. That is right freaking there on the freaking title screen, if you have enough EMS. Case closed.

The thing is, the writers were hacks who'd not thought their story out even one step ahead, so we have the current mess of contradictions between characters' opinions, ingame cinematics and the codex. It's useless to discuss it seriously.

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[humes spork]

Well, since you're not new around these parts, I'll jump right in and cut the crap.

BerzerkGene wrote...

Not suggesting that at all. But you never see them in the battle for the fate of the galaxy, do you? Either the reapers brought an absurd amount of force, even more than shown, or its just something else lazied out. I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't do that either. The tactics shown are horrible at best. Suicidal at worst.
At this point i'm just thinking it was too expensive or something to show these guns in action, no matter how good or bad they are meant to be.

Been discussed ad nauseum on the forum, those cutscenes have been broken down frame by frame and compared to those from ME2. those are Thanix Cannons!. Feel free to forum search the topic.

Ignore, "pierce". Same effect. What makes reaper barriers unknown exactly? It does not say known council race barriers. I would assume they tested it on sovereigns armour as well. Producing an extremely powerful barrier to test it on would be pragmatic too, especially given Sovereigns power.

Okay, this is just dumb. First, "pierce" implies kinetic energy of the weapon is lost in the process of piercing the barrier -- the weapon's strength is blunted by the barriers, even though the barriers themselves were overloaded in the process. A gameplay example of the difference between "ignore" and "pierce" would be shieldgating, I suppose.

If the Council races could produce a Reaper-level kinetic barrier in the first place, why would they do it for testing purposes and not actually equip ships with it?

Reapers are an unknown factor. What is known is their armor and barriers are at a strength unprecedented by anything in galactic history. That's not a known factor, especially given their basis for reference is approximately one Reaper.

The collector beam is reaper based, not reaper level. [...]

Okay, this just screams goalpost-moving. You said initially it appears to be a Reaper weapon, I pointed out what's wrong with that and now you're saying it's not a Reaper weapon? Granted, Thanix Cannons! are Reaper weapons and there's significant latitude for interpretation here, but you need to clarify precisely what it is you're saying.

And, the Collector ship's armaments are only indirectly relevant to my point; its defenses are directly so. Which is the primary purview of the effectiveness of 
Thanix Cannons!, but for the issue of range. Again, my point was the Collector ship was utterly devastated by conventional organic weaponry alone in the event you do not upgrade the SR-2's armament.

Its defenses -- nor its armament, since you brought it up -- are clearly not equivalent to a Reaper. And as such, it cannot be used for any basis of comparison for the offensive capabilities of 
Thanix Cannons! versus Reaper defenses. One is a really big transport ship with a big gun, and the other is a two-kilometer-long dreadnought with unprecedentedly-powerful armor and armament designed and built for the sole purpose of exterminating organics on the battlefield and off.

You would have to win fairly quickly, thats obvious. Or establish some sort of line in the sand and go from there. But unless you can in fact beat the reapers around earth, the rest doesn't matter. When you defeat them, then logistical problems take precedence.

An attempt at a Mahanian victory is what Earth is. If there was that Mahanian victory to be won, it would have been there. It, but for the Crucible ends in complete, utter, decisive defeat for the organics. So what are you saying here, "if the organics try to win in a single decisive conventional victory, it would be totally different from their attempt to win a single, decisive, conventional victory!"?

[warlock22]

[quote]v0rt3x22 wrote...

 [quote]
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
[/quote]

He was fighting back + he had help from a huge geth armada. Let's not forget that.

[quote]
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
[/quote]

Since it takes a while for the Reapers to eradicate all life - I would argue that if all forces in the galaxy unite in one spot - they could wipe out the Reapers "systematically".

It was already stressed in ME1 that a reaper wouldn't stand a chance against the galaxy united.
If you kill all reapers at earth - and then move from place to place together - I'm sure it would work.

[quote]
-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.
[/quote]

This really doesn't help your case, because the entire fleet united is much stronger than a single Thresher Maw.
I mean - just look at some of the war assets towards the end of the game - it is pretty huge - but then again - ofcourse we're not sure how many reapers there are.

[quote]
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
[/quote]

Yes - and that's what happens when you fight for yourself - instead of grouping up in a single massive army like at the end of ME3. It needs to be a team effort.

[quote]
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
[/quote]

I agree - Ground forces are not the way to go - but then again - Earth is an extreme example because the Reapers are much more concentrated on it.

[quote]
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
[/quote]

Yes but they're resourceful - and every little bit counts.

[quote]
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
[/quote]

That depends really on your choice in ME1 - whether you save the council or not. But yes they did have a losses regardless.

[quote]
-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.
[/quote]

I'm sure they'd come in handy somewhere.

[quote]
-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.
[/quote]

Honestly - towards the end of the game I didn't have a feeling that they were winning - nor that we were winning - but given the fact that I collected so many war assets - which were all (apparently) used to escort the crucible - it seems a bit of a waste.

[quote]
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...
[/quote]

Reapers are not invincible - they do have weaknesses - which start to show when a single fleet focuses on one.

So I would argue that there is a fighting chance when you focus on each reaper one by one.


[/quote]
This^  It also comes down to character and story consistancey. If you played good and did everything in all games you got the best out come, everyone survived including your self and Shepard has done the impossible before he/she can do it again. Also Shepard has always won on his or her terms, and they dont alow you to do that in the end.  And for people who say this is BioWare story, its not. Casey Hudson has always said that ME is about "your" story not "a" story. And hopfully the Lev DLC will effect the refusal ending, that would really help with a conventional win.

[Turran]

BerzerkGene wrote...

The ground war thing can be solves rather easily. Get some Yahg. Tougher than Krogan and smart as Salarians. Enough brute force to beat the tar ouf a brute with their bare hands. I don't know about you, but if i saw some creepy ass abomination i would not hesitate, no matter who it was, not even my own family.

Instantly fell...yeah. No. If they had fallen instantly their fleets would have been utterly destroyed and they would have been completely useless. The Turian military had pulled back to a safer location, but were still fighting, then even win back much of Palaven with the Krogan.

Stop using sovereign as an example. 1) it was ONE fleet. 2) Sovereign didn't even shoot, he let the Geth do all the work. 3) Thanix cannons had not been invented. 4) Sovereign was surrounded by Geth ships before he charged in, they were shielding him.
The thing is if he was truly that unstoppable he would have just gone and done everything himself, barged right through the fleet and activated the citadel.
If they could do the spinning thing, why not just do it? It would be simple, effective and result in the least losses. By AI standards, perfect.
Ships can out manouvere Reapers. Bigger ones should maintain range so that their absurd melee capabilities cannot be used. The smaller ones, Frigates or less, can fly circles around them. Because they have no engines. They have a mass effect core that allows them to move, but no actual engines like the Normandy.

The thing about those events is they show little to nothing of your entire force, any kind of strategy or our good friends the Thanix.

Using Sovreign as an example is actually perfect. Why? Because it wasn't just 1 fleet, you also had an Asari fleet, along with the strongest ship at the time in the game.
You also had Citadel security, as the Citadel must of had some sort of air protection unit. Yes the Geth were also attacking, but now replace that Geth fleet with 3 other Reapers, no one would of stood a chance.
(Also, Sovreign did just barge through, he cut straight through some Turian ships and landed in the Citadel)

It was an example of their sheer power. They wouldn't actually just spin, but it is showing that the Reapers could just charge the fleet, cut through to their mid - back range and just bombard like that, which is pretty much what we saw.
Yes the smaller ships can be seen moving quickly, but the Reapers also had smaller forces aswell.

Even if the Thannix was used and your stratergies, other Reapers would of just came on in and immediatly opened fire. While our ships would have to re-position themselves then open fire, also they would need to co-ordinate their attacks to actually be effective. Leaving enough time for a counter.

Ground forces include the Yhag? Do you really think anyone would want to use them? They are brutal, they kill anything. The Reapers are not a threat to them, so why would they want to join anyway?
Let's say they are used, the Reapers ground forces are beaten, then what? The Yhag politely wait around for transport to the next large area? No they would clearly turn and kill everything.

[Tocquevillain]

Thanix cannon,shamnix cannon...it is a "SCALED DOWN" version of the Reaper gun. Do you guys know what that means? Less powerful. Less! As in: not enough to take out Reapers as quickly as the fully powered Reaper version can take them out.

[Han Shot First]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because they're mad, Hanar.

This.

The interesting thing is that some of the same people who argue for a conventional victory will then criticize other scenes as being 'unrealistic,' like the Normandy evac scene during the beam rush.

If the galaxy had managed to somehow defeat the Reapers conventionally at the end of Mass Effect 3 it would have been the most ridiculously implausible scene of the entire series.

[Turran]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Every ship? No. But many ships were meeant to have them. The alliance can even give some to the geth, so they have so many they can spare some.

'Conventionally' Does not mean the Hackett way, fly straight at them and fire. ANY stratagey would be better. Most notably concentrating fire(firing at everything when they're so powerful is just stupid).

You win back Earth, the bulk of the reapers are dead, including harbinger, the one who is most dangerous. Salvage is used to patch the ships(you seriously didn't consider that?) What things can be made, are, then you split your force in 2 to take out the lesser defended places. Deal with the smaller amounts of reaper forces, if possible, taking ones parked on planets from orbit.
Why you would bother to secure the whole planet, i have no idea, all you would need is one continent, preferably Australia, and you would be able to hold out for some time, or forever, husks have not demonstrated an ability to swim. A rather notable vehicle is entirely absent. The Hammerhead, while not that tough, it would be perfect for hit and runs, running over husks and general fast transportion.

No one knew what the hell the Crucible did. They had not even tried to face the Reapers together. The Crucible is like a big bomb, its meant to bring a quick end to a bloody war, but if it doesn't work, that doesn't mean the war is over. Putting all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea anyway. Everyone has a back up plan.

Yes, most ships were meant to have them, but did we see them used? No. Which means maybe something was written wrong.
With what we see in Mass Effect 3, no one uses a Thannix, making them rare.

I didn't say that the only conventional victory would be via Hackett's way. I still think any way of doing it would of lead to a loss.

Then you skip to winning Earth, but alright. Yes, using Salvage did pop into mind, but how much would really be salvagable? How much would we be able to get our hands on, while still defending our hold-out spot from the Reapers?
Every time a Reaper comes down, it would include more salvage for ships, but more ships needing salvage, leading to a never ending loop of loosing ships slowly.

Holding Australia, forever? That isn't winning a war. That is simply turteling in and hoping you win with time. Australia doesn't have enough food (for both Human and Turian type stomachs), water or ammo to fully hold out.
Salvage wouldn't always just land in Australia, if a ship is shot out in orbit, it's parts could scatter across another continent.
Along with that I doubt they have enough fuel on one world to keep Hammerhead 'hit and runs' going forever.

The Crucible was hoped to be a big bomb, but infact it was a giant source of energy and codes to add variables to the Catalyst.
Putting all your eggs into one basket is a 'last resort' stratergy.

[Durhon]

I agree with this a conventional victory is not possible. The Reapers aren't even trying, they are harvesting the races so they aren't outright giving it their all. If they did the races of the galaxy would be quickly decimated.

[Bleachrude]

re: Thanix weaponry

Er, why would the galactic alliance be kitted out with Thanix? The first that ANYONE heard aboutt he Thanix is roughly 6-9 months before the Reaper invasion....How the hell would you retool thousands of ships that quickly?

[Rhiens VI]

savionen wrote...
What's the point of War Assets and EMS with the Crucible? Why are you even building an army from a gameplay perspective? The Crucible fires regardless. The Reapers lose regardless. (Well except Synthesis.)

You're building an army to protect the Crucible. Also, to delay Reapers in their harvesting, until the Crucible fires.

[Han Shot First]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Thanix weaponry

Er, why would the galactic alliance be kitted out with Thanix? The first that ANYONE heard aboutt he Thanix is roughly 6-9 months before the Reaper invasion....How the hell would you retool thousands of ships that quickly?

This.

For gameplay reasons we just press a button and the Normandy gets upgraded in Mass Effect 2, but that isn't how it would happen storywise.
 
A ship would have to go into the space equivalent of drydock and spend weeks or months getting retrofitted. Add to that the fact that you've had a lot more ships than shipyard space, and the complete ovehaul of entire fleets would take years.

[UniqueNickname]

Choosing a right strategy is all what matters here and provided we want to fight the Reapers conventionally mounting a full scale frontal attack on Earth is a wrong one. In point when we are actually able to choose the conventional war we are already doomed to failed since we already wasted most resources on something else (delivering the crucible by any costs).

In our cycle, whole galaxy never tried to fight the Reapers conventionally, there were only local defensive wars like Palaven before Shepard came in, united everyone and when he did, all decided that using a WMD (crucible) is only option, not even thinking about conventional war. In point we are already speaking with Starbrat and deciding to refuse him, it's already too late for change of thinking ...there wasn't a plan B in case crucible won't work...

Protean circle started construction of Crucible too late, they lost their central command at very beginning of the invasion and their strategy was generally falling back, sacrificing troops, resources and planets while hoping someone will make up something. Most of their projects were run separately with no central guidance (ec. Javiik's group didn't cared about crucible and vice versa, maybe they barely known about each other)

We have no information or insight how other Cycles fought and under what circumstances. We can guess it was similar to Protean Cycle, but that's assumption.

[v TricKy v]

Zero132132 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

I just have to correct you on one point. Sovereign was being shot a little bit by the citadel defence force. Not ALL of galactic civilisation. A bunch of ships firing at him is about 5. Thats not many. He then just ran over a ship. The fleet was mainly focussed on the Geth. He had taken very little actual damage to his shield.

Yeah, that was hyperbole, but it isn't just 5, and it wasn't just the citadel defense force; it's actually alliance as well. And it's definitely more than 5 ships. Look at this video, starting five minutes in. Hacket says to focus all fire on Sovereign, and even though some of the ships in the background are geth, you can see, specifically around 5:10-5:15, that he's being shot from all angles, and it's doing absolutely nothing to damage him. Until you beat Saren and his shields go down, you don't see a single scratch.

You are right but your argument has not much substance. They are all Cruisers. I mean the Destiny Ascension took also a lot of fire from the Geth Ships which were Cruiser size before going down. Doesnt mean that it was invincible. The battle is only proof that Dreadnoughts are tough as hell nothing more.

this goes to all people
stop making the Reapers look more powerful that they. I read a few ridiculous things like one Destroyer can beat a Dreadnought. The Codex says that one Cruiser can take out a Destroyer that means Cruiser=Destroyer not more. The Battle of Rannoch was just dramatic for the sake of it.

[TrollDemon]

Destroyed left and right is an overstatement. They hold their own
against the freaking Reapers. They lose the ground war initially, yes.
with the subterfuge it basically won them back most of the planet. Even
if only for a while, although nothing says otherwise. But would you
rather sacrifice a few good men to take out a destroyer/dreadnought, or a
ship/many ships.

The Turians are holding their own by the skin of their teeth. The Miracle of Palaven only brought them a respite But they cannot hold their own agains the Reapers forever. I do like the fact that the Turians are probably causing a migraine to Reaper forces on Palaven. But for how long?


Uhh...they do huskify them, what do you think Brutes are? However
krogan are excellent shock troops, able to go into things like the
Rachni production facility. Not the best example cause shepard is there,
but they can contribute.

They don't huskify them entirely like you see with humans, asari, and Turians. They are a mixture of Turian and Krogan DNA. I imagine that they do have pure Krogan husks, but that's not seen in game. Likewise, Krogan ground support can only do so much. Sooner or later they will give way. If the Reapers cannot win on the ground, than they will win in the air.

Asari make good ground support and they have some of the biggest and
most powerful dreadnoughts. The Destiny Ascension even managed to
survive an onslaught by the heretic geth for some time. While i agree
that it doesn't mean that much, they're physically weaker and have less
raw military might than the turians, they could help in other ways,
matriarchs and such could be extremely useful advisors and stratgists.
There would be scientists with centuries of experience.

Advisors yes, I can see that. Normal strategy doesn't work against the Reapers though. Primarch Victus outrights says on Menae. Scientists are given to the Crucible project. This is where it borderlines speculation, can the scientists come up with a weapon that can the fleets an edge? Because Thanix cannons alone can't win the war, and many scientists have little to no experience in dealing with Reaper technology. (they should be careful with it as well, lest they become indoctrinated) They'd be great for Biotic Artillery Strikes and they can possibly take down scores of Husk troops using biotics mixed with Krogan shock support.

Theres still a significant enough fleet for them to be worth 115 war
assets(with balak, anyway). The government may be dead, but they still
have soldiers and ships to bring to the table. Batarians are meant to be
enlisting by the thousands for revenge.

The Batarian fleet is substantially weaker than the Alliance fleet as Bahak stated that the Council threw the Batarians to the dogs when they decided to let the Alliance colonize along the Verge and the Hegemony appearently could do nothing about it. This was stated in Bring Down the Sky I believe. If not, then perhaps I'm wrong on the strength of the Batarians.

That station was mainly parliment. The president and what have you lived
there. It was a command center for the Alliance, but nothing says that
all the good admirals live there. After all, admiral hackett was meant
to be there. He was not. Also we only lose a total of three fleets.  You
still have 4-5. As for Earth, i am truly unsure. But supposedly there
were many reapers, and you still only lose the aforementioned fleets.

Three fleets and the entire parliament of Earth's military being destroyed right off the bat is a significant amount. 4-5 fleets are left. At Earth, Hackett had to sacrifice an entire fleet of ships to prevent the other two fleets from being completely destroyed. Three fleets of ships were going to be destroyed right off the bat had Hackett not sacrificed one fleet.


Not exactly the worst. you still manage to unite them. Worst would be if they fought alone.
You also forgot the Elcor, Volus, Hanar(and drell), Rachni and Terminus fleet(not a race, but they're meant to be significant).
Elcor: Provide transports, cruisers and frigates. Take no significant losses from Reapers. Shipwise anyway.
Volus:
You get a seriously badass Dreadnought, provides as many assets as half
an entire fleet. You also get a bombing fleet, which would have been
extremely useful for hammer team.
Hanar(and drell): Actively engage reaper forces, Drell specialists used in ground and sabotage operations.
Rachni:
Oddly lose the ships that were sighted all throughout ME2. Considering
the insane breeding speed they should be able to provide Rachni soldiers
as shock troops easily enough. At worst, help make ships, weapons and
what have you.
Terminus fleet: Provides mech for ground ops(cant be
indotrinated or reapised). Also good at sabotage, have a crapload of
Vorcha(which also seem to not be able to be reaperised) and generally
helping with ships and soldiers.

They were fighting alone until Shepard resolved their disputes. The Asari were trying to protect Thessia like a tiger protects a cub. The Geth and Quarians were killing each other because the Admiralty Board has their head up their ass. For the Volus I do get a bombing fleet, at the expense of Turian forces. Which is more important, a bombing fleet, or losing several Turian Ships fighting against Cerberus?  As for the Volus dreadnought laced with Thanix Cannons, it is indeed quite a deadly force agains the Reaper if they get close enough to actually destroy a Capitol Ship. There is one Volus Dreadnough and there are lots of Capitol Ships orbiting Earth and probably on Earth. The Rachni, in my opinon, deserved a bigger war asset. They brought the pre Turian and Krogan Citadel armada to their knees before the Krogan came in and saved the day. But then again, they were indoctrinated at the time. I still believe they're incredibly powerful in their own right though.



If you had got to them sooner, the war might have been averted
entirely. However, even with losses they still have the biggest fleets
availiable, hundreds of ships. Geth are supposed to be more
technologically advanced than most council races and we're not given the
exact numbers of Dreadnoughts. " Unbound by the Treaty of Farixen, the
synthetic intelligences built almost as many dreadnoughts as the
turians.
The software running these ships is in the geth themselves. High
advanced electronic security measures and cyber warfare suites bolster
already formidable firepower.
" One geth dreadnought was able to withstand the entireity of the Quarian fleet. It is unlikely that they simply had one.
The
Quarians don't have the firepower(or didnt), but they have the numbers,
combiing the two by making peace nets you lots of ships with good tech.
The  Quarians also fitted most of their ships with Thanix cannons. Even
the civvies.

But I couldn't get to them sooner. The Geth were probably the best prepared for the Reapers, and the Quarians decided to attack them. But considering the Migrant Fleet pushed the Geth all the way back to Rannoch thanks to the destruction of their Dyson Sphere, it shows that the Quarians, in the short term, mangaged to overpower the Geth. Just by how much I wonder though considering just how numerous the Geth really are. The civilian dreadnaughts are glass cannons, and the Reapers have the edge on all organic dreadnaughts in terms of firepower and range. As for the Geth, I do not know just how advanced they are in terms of weaponry and shielding. They can shrug off the firepower of the Quarian fleet. Can they shrug off the firepower of a Reaper capitol ship. No known Dreadnaught has, and thanks to the Refuse ending, it seems in the long run no dreadnaught can.

I am going admit that I think that the Geth would probably be more like the Turians when it comes to the Reapers. I think the Geth might have been able to hold their own if the Quarians hadn't stepped in and gone to war with them.

The Destroyers have never displayed this. The Sovereign class ones do
that. The thanix don't have to win the battles alone. Use unconventional
thinking, combine some actual military tactics and you have some chance
rather than no chance(also helps if everyone you recruit bothers to
show up).


You're right. It was a Turian Cruiser that was taken down by a Destroyer. But pray tell, even if that were the case, one shot from a capitol is powerful enough to take down any organic ship in one shot. Unfortunately we don't know just how powerful the Geth Dreadnoughts are if it were to face the Reapers themselves, nor do we know just how many Geth Dreadnoughts there really are. Suffice to say, thanks to the Refusal ending, it seems Geth forces are moot.

Even if Earth was retaken through conventional means, just how much of the combined fleet would be left? Would it be enough to destroy the Reapers that are destroying Palaven, Thessia, Tunchanka, and all the other homeworlds of the space faring alien races? I doubt so, worst case scenario, the Reapers will re-think their strategy. They are patient, and they are intelligent. What they cannot win through brute force they will try to win through manipulation. My evidence for this would be Saren, who would have succeded if not for Shepard, and for Cerberus, who would have probably achieved most of their goals if again, not for Shepard.


I will reiterate this again though, had the Council actually took the Reaper threat seriously and starting preparing for their arrival, then I think the war could have been won conventionally.

Modifié par TrollDemon, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:00 .

[o Ventus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Thanix weaponry

Er, why would the galactic alliance be kitted out with Thanix? The first that ANYONE heard aboutt he Thanix is roughly 6-9 months before the Reaper invasion....How the hell would you retool thousands of ships that quickly?

This.

For gameplay reasons we just press a button and the Normandy gets upgraded in Mass Effect 2, but that isn't how it would happen storywise.
 
A ship would have to go into the space equivalent of drydock and spend weeks or months getting retrofitted. Add to that the fact that you've had a lot more ships than shipyard space, and the complete ovehaul of entire fleets would take years.

They made it a point to mention that almost every Alliance vessel and turian ship now has Thanix cannons.

[Galbrant]

Are we only thinking of ships and man power? O_o I like to think the Asari, Quarians, Salarians, and Geth, can develop a defense with the data Indoctrination Experiments on Horizon, and maybe some of the rewritten Heretic Geth has even more information Indoctrination.

And the Rachni are the Experts of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Who knows along with the Turians, Batarians, and Salarians insight they may be able to concoct something devlish for the Reapers.

I guess the other thing is if we can hold a sector that is rich with resources that we can develop more powerful ships and Geth, With the geneophage cured and the Salarians abandoning its social laws on birth rates, we have both the muscle for building and the engineers and architects to put it all together.

This is what I am thinking atm for the long term... and if all else fails... The crew of the Normandy can go back to Eden Prime and get more data on that Prothean stasis chambers and with Liara Shadow Broker skills and Tali's knack of making a Dreadnought out of scrap metal we can hide from the reapers until they finish harvesting on what they can find.

Edit the bit on the harvesting.

Modifié par Galbrant, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:55 .