676 réponses à ce sujet

[Zero132132]

Want to clear one thing up (although on FTL forums most will miss it); people here keep saying that conventional warfare means lining up our ships against theirs and fighting an open battle. That's not what conventional warfare means; conventional warfare means targeting military objectives to reduce the enemy's ability to wage war, typically using conventional weapons. It DOESN'T mean following the patterns of symmetric warfare and basically taking your enemy in open combat without using any other techniques to fight them.

Unconventional warfare usually has a goal of getting the enemy to a point where even though they're capable of attacking, they become convinced that it isn't possible. It's like what happened in Vietnam; the US military wasn't so decimated that it was incapable of continuing, but a sense that victory wasn't being achieved produced war weariness and political unrest at home.

The Reapers have no analogous thought process. Their entire existence is devoted to eliminating and harvesting galactic society. Running away could never suit their purposes, and would only give their enemy time to become stronger, develop comparable weapons. It would mean that their entire purpose and goal became impossible. They have no reason to exist but to destroy us.

The main aspect in the game that's a departure from conventional warfare is the Crucible, since it's a very unconventional weapon.

[Kamfrenchie]

The crucible is an ass pull in its current state

[Zero132132]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

The crucible is an ass pull in its current state

That has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a conventional victory against the Reapers could have been a thing.

[Dusen]

Kamfrenchie wrote...
. . . i thought the vietcong use nonconventionnl atctics but oh well.

What, you don't remember the Vietnamese activating their Crucible? It created the hippies!

[Zero132132]

Dusen wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...
. . . i thought the vietcong use nonconventionnl atctics but oh well.

What, you don't remember the Vietnamese activating their Crucible? It created the hippies!

You joke, but that was essentially what their tactics were designed around. They knew they couldn't defeat our military, so they just tried to induce war weariness. I don't think the Reapers are capable of being hippies, which is why unconventional warfare wouldn't have worked.

[TheSnappyDude]

i dont think we could win fighting it like the end of ME3, attacking the main reaper force you would get slaughtered. Gorilla tactics would give us a slim chance.

[Han Shot First]

Zero132132 wrote...

Want to clear one thing up (although on FTL forums most will miss it); people here keep saying that conventional warfare means lining up our ships against theirs and fighting an open battle. That's not what conventional warfare means; conventional warfare means targeting military objectives to reduce the enemy's ability to wage war, typically using conventional weapons. It DOESN'T mean following the patterns of symmetric warfare and basically taking your enemy in open combat without using any other techniques to fight them.

Unconventional warfare usually has a goal of getting the enemy to a point where even though they're capable of attacking, they become convinced that it isn't possible. It's like what happened in Vietnam; the US military wasn't so decimated that it was incapable of continuing, but a sense that victory wasn't being achieved produced war weariness and political unrest at home.

The Reapers have no analogous thought process. Their entire existence is devoted to eliminating and harvesting galactic society. Running away could never suit their purposes, and would only give their enemy time to become stronger, develop comparable weapons. It would mean that their entire purpose and goal became impossible. They have no reason to exist but to destroy us.

The main aspect in the game that's a departure from conventional warfare is the Crucible, since it's a very unconventional weapon.

While you are correct in your analysis, such tactics were simply not an option for the Citadel fleets.  The Citadel Fleets had the problem of having to win quick, problems that the NVA or Viet Cong for example, didn't face. The Reapers are in the process of systematically annihilating the homeworlds of the most economically and military powerful factions, and are destroying key infrastructure like refueling stations. The ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage war is being reduced daily, and drastically. In fact on the Spectre Terminal in game the player can access a classified Volus report on the state of the galactic economy, that estimates that if the war continues on it's current course , the total collapse of the galactic economy is inevitable within the year.

Total economic collapse would be the death knell for the Citadel species. Once that happened, they'd be finished and it would be up to the next cycle to defeat the Reapers.

Even ignoring the technological disparity between the two opposing forces, this removes the ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage a successful hit and run strategy that whittles the Reapers down. Such tactics require a long war, and time is an ally of the Reapers in this fight.

Gorilla tactics would give us a slim chance.

Guerilla tactics might produce some short term successes (like the Asari have) but it isn't going to win you the war in the long term. Successfully defeating an enemy in a guerrilla war requires a lot of time. It is a variation of war of attrition, and wars of attrition don't end in quick victories. In a guerrilla war you either bleed your enemy to death by thousands of small cuts or you wear down his willingness to wage war. Neither was an option for the Citadel species when their homeworlds and refueling stations were being destroyed, and when the galactic economy was straining to the breaking point. They needed to win quick or they wouldn't win at all.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .

[naes1984]

Because what we got so awful that we are rewriting the story to make it remotely palatable.

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back.

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

If you're going to outright lie to promote this ridiculous "OMG REAPARS R UNSTOPPABLE" thing some people seem to love I'm just not going to bother.

There is no evidence that the Reapers can win conventionally in this war. Your insistence doesn't help things, either.

[shadowkinz]

reapers aren't infallible and this is the first time a whole galaxy united to counter an invasion. usually they appear on the citadel and nomnom the galaxies leadership before anyone even knows what's going on

[SirCroft]

I don't understand, I saw people complaining that in ME3 Reapers went from Chtulhu-like space gods to mere battleships, but then people also want to defeat them conventionally.

[TookYoCookies]

says in codex conventional victory possible.

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:55 .

[PinkysPain]

SirCroft wrote...

I don't understand, I saw people complaining that in ME3 Reapers went from Chtulhu-like space gods to mere battleships, but then people also want to defeat them conventionally.

I am complaining they went from menacing opponents to flunkys of the Starchild ... while Shepard went from a protagonist to the same ...

Modifié par PinkysPain, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:56 .

[Ridwan]

Still no answer to how the reapers got the iddqd code?

[saracen16]

M25105 wrote...

Still no answer to how the reapers got the iddqd code?

The individual Reapers don't have god-mode, but their numbers and strength far more than compensate. Compared to the ability of our fleets' numbers and strength, they actually are gods.

[Kamfrenchie]

Han Shot First wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Want to clear one thing up (although on FTL forums most will miss it); people here keep saying that conventional warfare means lining up our ships against theirs and fighting an open battle. That's not what conventional warfare means; conventional warfare means targeting military objectives to reduce the enemy's ability to wage war, typically using conventional weapons. It DOESN'T mean following the patterns of symmetric warfare and basically taking your enemy in open combat without using any other techniques to fight them.

Unconventional warfare usually has a goal of getting the enemy to a point where even though they're capable of attacking, they become convinced that it isn't possible. It's like what happened in Vietnam; the US military wasn't so decimated that it was incapable of continuing, but a sense that victory wasn't being achieved produced war weariness and political unrest at home.

The Reapers have no analogous thought process. Their entire existence is devoted to eliminating and harvesting galactic society. Running away could never suit their purposes, and would only give their enemy time to become stronger, develop comparable weapons. It would mean that their entire purpose and goal became impossible. They have no reason to exist but to destroy us.

The main aspect in the game that's a departure from conventional warfare is the Crucible, since it's a very unconventional weapon.

While you are correct in your analysis, such tactics were simply not an option for the Citadel fleets.  The Citadel Fleets had the problem of having to win quick, problems that the NVA or Viet Cong for example, didn't face. The Reapers are in the process of systematically annihilating the homeworlds of the most economically and military powerful factions, and are destroying key infrastructure like refueling stations. The ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage war is being reduced daily, and drastically. In fact on the Spectre Terminal in game the player can access a classified Volus report on the state of the galactic economy, that estimates that if the war continues on it's current course , the total collapse of the galactic economy is inevitable within the year.

Total economic collapse would be the death knell for the Citadel species. Once that happened, they'd be finished and it would be up to the next cycle to defeat the Reapers.

Even ignoring the technological disparity between the two opposing forces, this removes the ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage a successful hit and run strategy that whittles the Reapers down. Such tactics require a long war, and time is an ally of the Reapers in this fight.

Gorilla tactics would give us a slim chance.

Guerilla tactics might produce some short term successes (like the Asari have) but it isn't going to win you the war in the long term. Successfully defeating an enemy in a guerrilla war requires a lot of time. It is a variation of war of attrition, and wars of attrition don't end in quick victories. In a guerrilla war you either bleed your enemy to death by thousands of small cuts or you wear down his willingness to wage war. Neither was an option for the Citadel species when their homeworlds and refueling stations were being destroyed, and when the galactic economy was straining to the breaking point. They needed to win quick or they wouldn't win at all.

Let me jus imagine anoter form of non conventionnal wafare.

Electronic warfare ? jamming ?

blowing up earth mass relay to kill most reapers?

[Ridwan]

saracen16 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Still no answer to how the reapers got the iddqd code?

The individual Reapers don't have god-mode, but their numbers and strength far more than compensate. Compared to the ability of our fleets' numbers and strength, they actually are gods.

And how many Reapers are there?

[saracen16]

M25105 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Still no answer to how the reapers got the iddqd code?

The individual Reapers don't have god-mode, but their numbers and strength far more than compensate. Compared to the ability of our fleets' numbers and strength, they actually are gods.

And how many Reapers are there?

Eons = billions of years. Try dividing that by 50,000. You'll get a number in the 100's of thousands.

AT LEAST.

Modifié par saracen16, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[Andromidius]

Because no-one seems to know what 'conventional' means.

There are many forms of unconventional warfare that could be (and were) used effectively against the Reapers. And the Crucible isn't one of them - that's a Hail Mary, and one which isn't even required (and is potentially harmful to them, since they don't know what it will do for all they know it could be a trap).

For one thing, uniting the majority of the galaxy under one flag is pretty darn unconventional. As is using reverse engineered weapons from the Reapers. And being allied with Geth and Rachni. List goes on...

[Ridwan]

saracen16 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Still no answer to how the reapers got the iddqd code?

The individual Reapers don't have god-mode, but their numbers and strength far more than compensate. Compared to the ability of our fleets' numbers and strength, they actually are gods.

And how many Reapers are there?

Eons = billions of years. Try dividing that by 50,000. You'll get a number in the 100's of thousands.

AT LEAST.

Are you taking this from a source or just guessing?

[Lord Stark]

The Reapers vastly outnumber us as stated by the Catalyst, which makes sense.

[Ridwan]

Councilor Oraka wrote...

The Reapers vastly outnumber us as stated by the Catalyst, which makes sense.

He could also be lying.

[Whatever42]

Han Shot First wrote...

While you are correct in your analysis, such tactics were simply not an option for the Citadel fleets.  The Citadel Fleets had the problem of having to win quick, problems that the NVA or Viet Cong for example, didn't face. The Reapers are in the process of systematically annihilating the homeworlds of the most economically and military powerful factions, and are destroying key infrastructure like refueling stations. The ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage war is being reduced daily, and drastically. In fact on the Spectre Terminal in game the player can access a classified Volus report on the state of the galactic economy, that estimates that if the war continues on it's current course , the total collapse of the galactic economy is inevitable within the year.

Total economic collapse would be the death knell for the Citadel species. Once that happened, they'd be finished and it would be up to the next cycle to defeat the Reapers.

Even ignoring the technological disparity between the two opposing forces, this removes the ability of the Citadel Fleets to wage a successful hit and run strategy that whittles the Reapers down. Such tactics require a long war, and time is an ally of the Reapers in this fight.

The economy is currently geared up to provide for the needs and wants of large civilian populations. Total economic collapse is only going to very briefly proceed complete annialation for those populations. However, those populations have little to do with the war.

The Citadel fleets are being reduced because they cannot replace losses. The key to victory does not lie in reducing losses, it lies in replacing the losses.

The Reapers have zero ability to produce more Reapers, at least once Earth is gone. So in that regard, we don't have to out-produce them, only replace our own losses. Victory can happen as long as we find a way to do that. Now, the more we can produce, the faster the war will be over. Also, if we can't find a way to replace losses then we will eventually lose.

So we have a galaxy with 100 billion stars with all of the planets and asteroids oribiting those stars. Most of these stars are very densely packed, with high background radiation, and high levels of dust. This makes these stars bad candidates for colonization but good candidates for production facilities.

So lets say that the races and Geth grabbed what people and resources they could and high tailed it. Heck, they might have even started this before the invasion. They could find some resource rich systems far away from a relay. They then start several operations, in several clusters, to build production.

So let's say with resistance crushed, the Reapers all spread out and search 2000 star systems a day. That means they could search the galaxy in about 137000 years. Let's reduce that number, saying that mining and other operation span a dozen systems and finding any one of them means that production facility is found. That means that the Reapers could cover the whole galaxy in 11400 years. So if we had a few dozen facilities, it would take the Reapers thousands of years to find them all.

What could we produce in a fifty years? 

Now, this supposes that we think that way, when clearly we aren't. We will fight and die in our home systems, clearly. But if our goal was the destruction of the Reapers, instead of saving our homeworlds, we could certainly win.

[Kamfrenchie]

Councilor Oraka wrote...

The Reapers vastly outnumber us as stated by the Catalyst, which makes sense.

No way. If the reapers outnumber us, there is no way in hell the crucible would make it halfway to the citadel. The whole armada would be wasted in 4 laser beam salvos.

Unless the allied forces have a significant numerical advntage, the plot is even more fawed.

[thefallen2far]

Zero132132 wrote...

Yeah, it was really stupid of Sovereign to divert any attention to Saren, but you're dismissing the point completely; that Sovereign's shields made him nearly invulnerable. I say 'nearly' rather than 'completely' because I mean it. Being attacked by all of galactic civilization's ships at the same time is no picnic. The Geth provided an early diversion. But by the end of that sequence, the cutscene shows a bunch of ships firing only at him, with the Geth already out of the picture. Maybe he couldn't have withstood that kind of onslaught the entire time, but in the Reaper war, how often will a Reaper kindly sit in one place, alone, while a bunch of ships shoot it over and over? He was a sitting duck, and he still was basically fine until his shields went down, and that was only because of Shepard.

You're also revealing your own bias completely; you accuse me of accepting that the Reapers have plot armor, but I actually am arguing that they're substantially WEAKER in ME3 than they were portrayed to be in 1 and 2. I don't think they HAVE plot armor. You actually see some die without overwhelming, absurd amounts of effort in 3.

You choose to believe that Sovereign's shields were nothing special (against demonstration) and ignore the point about a weapon with more than a billion times the energy output of a single dreadnought round only disabled one because you hate the Catalyst. You're all-but admitting it by portraying anyone that disagrees with you as defending the Catalyst. How is his presence at all relevant in this discussion otherwise?

Just so we're clear:  your headcannon being that Sovereign was an idiot.  He didn't need the Geth armada and was just wasting time building them.   It was just luck that he was stupid enough to try to reactivate a dead traitor which leaves him vulnerable to assault.   You say this even though it's established the whole reason he's doing it is because he wouldn't survive a blitz by himself as evident by each character having shields that also prevent them from being shot, put they all take a certain amount of energy that runs out eventually is the definative way of interpreting the end of ME1's ending.  You're saying the only reason you won against Sovereign is through luck that he was an idiot. To you, this is the only way to interpret the end game of ME1.  Forgive me for saying that you either didn't like ME1, or you really like bad endings.

Literally, I never thought of it that way.  You see, I'm not a nihilist.  I don't think that Sovereign was stupid or let himself be destroyed.  I actually believe Shepard saved the day at the end of Mass Effect 1 by stopping Saren from unlocking the block that was put on the portal to bring the Reapers from dark space.  That all he had to do was keep the lock the Prothians put into place long enough for the suprised fleet outside to break through the kinetic barriers and shred the ship.  And in a last ditch effort, he tried to animate the dead body of the traitor Saren to try and kill Shepard and then try and release the Prothian blocks.  And then Shepard destroyed the reanimated corpse proving to be the last hope he had of unlocking the door as the ship started getting pulverized by by the outside ships.  I don't think that the geth Armada was taken out in a few seconds and were just a waste.... it was an Armada.  With kinetic barriers like all other ships have.   Even the personel have sheilds.  They had to be wittled down.  I'm not a nihilist.  I didn't think the Reapers were omnipotent, mostly because omnipotent beings don't use tactics like Indoctrination, suprise attacks, control of escape and/or reinforcements, alliances with lesser beings.  I think they were realistically depicted as a strong enemy, but a defeatable one.  Had I known that the only way to beat them was for them to let you win, I never would have wasted my time with the series.