676 réponses à ce sujet

[v0rt3x22]

billywaffles wrote...

There is no point in arguing, bioware could even give an official statement that it is impossible and some people would still think that it is possible.

It is the classic Metallica vs Megadeth. No point in arguing here really.

we're not arguing - we're engaging in mental excercise and having a healthy discussion.

You're welcome to join 

[inko1nsiderate]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.

Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?

Frankly, I assumed they didn't.  Just because Jessica Merizan says it, doesn't make it so.  She has said a lot of stuff that was either flatout wrong at the time, or is now wrong post EC.  If you are told 50,000 years early that this way didn't work to defeat the Reapers, of course you aren't going to try it.  Getting a 50,000 year head start is a good way to actually acheive conventional victory.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:12 .

[fr33stylez]

You can argue that a conventional victory could've been possible at the end of ME1. But the writers didn't write the story that way, so it seems weird trying to say it's possible when nothing in the plots of ME2 and ME3 suggest you can.

[v0rt3x22]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.

Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?

Frankly, I assumed they didn't.  Just because Jessica Merizan says it doesn't make it so.  She has said a lot of stuff that was either flatout wrong at the time, or is now wrong post EC.  If you are told 50,000 years early that this way didn't work to defeat the Reapers, of course you aren't going to try it.  Getting a 50,000 year head start is a good way to actually acheive conventional victory.

I wasn't actually refering to Gamble - I didn't even know he said that.
But I seem to remember that the crucible is shown as a hologram in that Liara sequence? (correct me if I'm wrong)


Even her speech seems to suggest that all the data they collected (which would include the crucible) - would seem to suggest that the next cycle would attempt it again.

[Galbrant]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

There are many variables I'm willing to bet that Bioware didn't take into account:

http://social.biowar...0127/4#12941345

To that I say, there are many variables you are not taking into account:

http://social.biowar.../index/11814974 

Thank you for the post, but I stand by choice still.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

fr33stylez wrote...

You can argue that a conventional victory could've been possible at the end of ME1. But the writers didn't write the story that way, so it seems weird trying to say it's possible when nothing in the plots of ME2 and ME3 suggest you can.

Nothing in the plot of Mass effect 2 suggests you can't.

[Eluril]

I've said before and will say it again: people wanting a straight conventional victory are like those that want the Elf, Dwarf, and Human armies in Lord of the Rings to storm the black gate and have Aragorn behead Sauron in a one on one duel. In other words, fools!

[CaFe87]

I just wonder how previous cycles lost against the reapers, when there was just 4 or 5 of them?
I mean they were advanced species, just like us.

[fr33stylez]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can argue that a conventional victory could've been possible at the end of ME1. But the writers didn't write the story that way, so it seems weird trying to say it's possible when nothing in the plots of ME2 and ME3 suggest you can.

Nothing in the plot of Mass effect 2 suggests you can't.

That's because you don't address or prepare for the Reaper problem at all in ME2.

And by the beginning of ME3, the Reapers are here. They could've flown to the Citadel and shut it down like in previous cycles if they wanted to - that's how unprepared the universe was for the Reapers, even after 2 games of delay tactics.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .

[Kalundume]

this can be won conventionally, because a sheer force of numbers is not what made the successfull generals in our real world, many battles were won against all odds and it goes well together with ME theme

[77boy84]

The narrative of "The reapers are unstoppable, we NEED the crucible!" only existed in ME3.
In the other two games, you were preparing for a conventional war with them. You knew it would be rough, but you also knew that if you could unite EVERYONE and prepare enough, you could win by the skin of your teeth.

It has nothing to do with facts, it has everything to do with how Bioware wanted the story to be told, and they shifted directions at the last minute, so they could ignore build up from the last two games, and make the third game the only one relevant to the trilogy to get "new players"

[inko1nsiderate]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

v0rt3x22 wrote...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.

Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?

Frankly, I assumed they didn't.  Just because Jessica Merizan says it doesn't make it so.  She has said a lot of stuff that was either flatout wrong at the time, or is now wrong post EC.  If you are told 50,000 years early that this way didn't work to defeat the Reapers, of course you aren't going to try it.  Getting a 50,000 year head start is a good way to actually acheive conventional victory.

I wasn't actually refering to Gamble - I didn't even know he said that.
But I seem to remember that the crucible is shown as a hologram in that Liara sequence? (correct me if I'm wrong)


Even her speech seems to suggest that all the data they collected (which would include the crucible) - would seem to suggest that the next cycle would attempt it again.

I figured her speech saying the crucible wasn't enough would mean they wouldn't try it.  But I could well be wrong.  That ending is certainly bereft of details.  They do show the crucible, and I assume they had its plans, but I assume Liara fit every last bit of knowledge and technology information she could regardless of whether or not it seemed relevant because any of that information could give the next cycle and crazy huge head start.

[Gweedotk]

The did find an ancient weapon, but that weapon isn't conventional. The Quarian fleet is riding support and supplies. They don't even have a dreadnaught, I'm not sure how many cruisers, but Rann merely states they have a "number" of heavy frigates and advanced fighter squadrons. Besides that, they have only 17 million people total, limiting losses is a priority and thus avoiding the frontlines.

You'd think with the Krogan and Turians, we'd rule on the ground. But the dead of our species can be converted into a Reaper shock trooper. It may seem easy for Shepard to take down a brute, but I'm sure those things can take down an entire squad of Krogan commando's and a platoon of any other race single-handedly. Banshee's... Well we just won't go there.

Husks can generally swarm enemy positions with acceptable losses. Remember that millions of people from all the races are being harvested. Hundreds of thousands of those are being converted into Reaper shock troops. Finally, they are an AI. They can process and analyze information much more quickly than any organic can. They are much more advanced than the Geth. An AI will laways be superior to any organic mind, that's reality (even in our world). All things considered, they have superior numbers and much more efficient strategists.

In the first and second games, Shepard tries to bring the races together. Not because he knew he could win this, but because he needed to try. Shepard wouldnt be an N7 if he siply said "well, it's impossible guess we'll just give up." No, that's pathetic. There are so many cultures in history that completely rejected the concept of "hope" and insisted that one should fight as matter of honor, no matter the odds.

Shepard is gathering the races to fight back, but he has admitted a few times (at least in my game) that he has no idea how they could possibly win this thing.

Modifié par Gweedotk, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

fr33stylez wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can argue that a conventional victory could've been possible at the end of ME1. But the writers didn't write the story that way, so it seems weird trying to say it's possible when nothing in the plots of ME2 and ME3 suggest you can.

Nothing in the plot of Mass effect 2 suggests you can't.

That's because you don't address or prepare for the Reaper problem at all in ME2.

And by the beginning of ME3, the Reapers are here. They could've flown to the Citadel and shut it down like in previous cycles if they wanted to - that's how unprepared the universe was for the Reapers, even after 2 games of delay tactics.

It seems the Reapers were unprepared for the galaxy to unite.

Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[savionen]

Gweedotk wrote...

By the time Thessia falls, half of the inhabitable galaxy is under complete control by the Reapers. I got this information directly from Citadel news. By the time we head to Earth, the galaxy map is looking ugly.

Conventional victory is NOT possible. The only place where Reapers are actually being opposed is Palaven and Tuchanka and those are the two most powerful races in the galaxy. The entire Alliance leadership, those on Arcturus Station and Earth is gone in a matter of hours. Thessia falls in a similar time frame.

With the entire galaxy's might concentrated in the assault on Earth, the Reapers still have the upper hand and manage to slowly (but surely) win. Even with an EMS of 20,000, conventional victory just isn't possible. The Reapers are more intelligent than all the Organic races (and even the Geth) and have superior tactics and strategy, if it ever came down to a war that could be won by strategy or tactics (which it could not).

It just isn't possible guys. The cycle has existed for millions of years, with races always fighting back as hard as they could. The Reapers have almost certainly faced losses in these cycles, but they have never been defeated.

In every previous cycle the mass relays were shut off and all government and military leaders were assassinated too. They didn't have Thanix cannons and didn't have as many ships either OR were engaged in some war between them. The Protheans were fighting cyborgs.

Previous cycles it was like militia vs militia vs reapers. The current cycle it's a unitied hundred billion people against the Reapers.

[Tleining]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?

1.) yes, their (Reapers) Shields are Powerful. Good that we now have the Thanix, right? (new tech, new possibilities).

2.) uhm, how many exactly? The Quarian Fleet was busy fighting the Geth. Plus: Firing Kinetic Weapons from Space to the Surface of a Planet...., wouldn't most of the Kinetic Energy be lost during atmospheric entry?
....Or devastate the surface

3.) yes, but that was after we lost the Krogan-Tanks. On Earth a Thanix-Missile and Ground Troops managed the same thing (disregarding the Cain-kill earlier).

4.) *sigh* yes, the Turians fighting alone is a bad idea. They have their Tactics, once the Reapers have adjusted to that, the Turians are screwed. That's why they all have to work together. Wasn't humanity known for their ability to adjust quickly to new tactics?

5.) Hammer was basically invading Reaper-Space, a conventional War would only work, if we (organics) pick the battlefield (surprise attacks).

6.) Weren't most of those Ships armed? If you want to call them civilian, fine. Doesn't change that the Quarians bring a unique view-point to the battle. If they find a way to hack husks ....

7.) uh, before the attack on the Citadel (Sovereign) humanity had 5 Dreadnoughts, in ME3 they had 9 (?). Weakened?

8.) Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't that mostly relate to ground-based attacks? Salarian and Asari Dreadnoughts are just as effective as Turian ones. And yes, their basic War-Strategy doesn't work against Reapers. But the Salarians are devious little b..... guys. Give them a task and who knows what they can come up with.

9.) (and 10.) yes, in a direct confrontation the Reapers will win. Did i mention the need to adjust strategy?

Modifié par Tleining, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[Pekkan]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that when you choose Refuse - Liara says that they tried to win against the reapers - but the crucible didn't work.

Then why would the next cycle even try to build it?

The question is more like why wouldn't they try to build it:

"Great that we got the warning in time, now we just fully mobilize galaxy, and prepare for the fight of our life, that might cost billions of lives and we still might loose, the previous cycle was united in their fight but that was not enough. Or while preparing for this, we could invest some little resources upon this Crucible project, try to fix and improve and add to it like previous cycles did, and possibly eliminate the Reaper thread before they even arrive, so that we might be spared from any casulties, it's not like it takes impossible amount of resources, maybe worth of couple dreadnaughts"

What do you think the next cycle will try?

Modifié par Pekkan, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Offender_Mullet]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?

Ahh, there's that "c word" again, which we heard many times in the sp campaign.

I'm confused about the E.M.S./War Assets ratings and not being able to win....'conventionally'. If your ems is high enough it states you're winning in key locations, etc. so why you aren't able to win using normal means? I never thought about this until the ec came out and people were bringing it up (or just ignored it before).

[Whatever42]

Saving Earth with conventional warfare is clearly impossible. However, defeating the Reapers overall might not be impossible. Since the Reapers were clearly not indestructible, it would come down to production capacity.

Reapers clearly take immense resources to construct. Only one species was compatible with Reaper construction so their resources are limited and vulnerable (yes, drop some nasty bio weapons on Earth to remove the capacity to create new Reapers). Yes, they can create husks but those are really only useful for terrorizing civilian populations.

Let's go with your 10 to 1 numbers. The galaxy is huge. It's production capacity is huge. All we would need to do is outproduce the Reapers more than 10 to 1. Easy. Of course, it would take time to ramp up production (a year maybe) so fry some relays to slow the Reapers down.

Reapers can't win.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Conventional victory isn't possible because Bioware says so. That's it. Nothing more to discuss. If you still have a problem with this, feel free to stop playing the Mass Effect games.

[fr33stylez]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

You can argue that a conventional victory could've been possible at the end of ME1. But the writers didn't write the story that way, so it seems weird trying to say it's possible when nothing in the plots of ME2 and ME3 suggest you can.

Nothing in the plot of Mass effect 2 suggests you can't.

That's because you don't address or prepare for the Reaper problem at all in ME2.

And by the beginning of ME3, the Reapers are here. They could've flown to the Citadel and shut it down like in previous cycles if they wanted to - that's how unprepared the universe was for the Reapers, even after 2 games of delay tactics.

It seems the Reapers were unprepared for the galaxy to unite.

The galaxy only started to "unite" after the Reaper Invasion had started. And despite ME3 several flaws, they consistently showed every world being progressively overwhlemed by the Reapers. The Asari homewrold had already fallen, the Batarians are bascially gone, the Turians are losing, Earth is in bad shape, etc. And why wouldn't they lose? The galaxy had amnesia after ME1 and nobody even knew the Reapers were coming.

[Gweedotk]

savionen wrote...

In every previous cycle the mass relays were shut off and all government and military leaders were assassinated too. They didn't have Thanix cannons and didn't have as many ships either OR were engaged in some war between them. The Protheans were fighting cyborgs.

Previous cycles it was like militia vs militia vs reapers. The current cycle it's a unitied hundred billion people against the Reapers.

Yes, Javik even said himself that in his cycle, there had never been a final battle. Races had never come together. The Citadel had always been swarmed, the relays taken control of, and the civilizations slowly consumed.

The Reapers this cycle have suffered more losses than before. But it still isn't enough. There aren't that many dreadnaughts in the galaxy thanks to the treaty of Farixen. and a Reaper can probably take a dread naught out fast. Primarch Victus told Garrus that they had lost two dread's in a matter of hours. I would hate to be a general during this time, it has to be brutal watching your forces bled to death.

I don't entirely agree with Bioware's handling of the endings. It seems to me they held stuff back with the intention of selling it later, an extremely despicable tactic. But after reading the codex's, listening to Citadel news, replaying the first two games, I can say that in my eyes the evidence in all the games does not paint the Reapers as being possible to defeat conventionally.

[savionen]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Conventional victory isn't possible because Bioware says so. That's it. Nothing more to discuss. If you still have a problem with this, feel free to stop playing the Mass Effect games.

Okay. People are discussing WHY it should be possible then.

[Veloric Wu]

Because people enjoy hating the ending on the forums conventionally