676 réponses à ce sujet

[BerzerkGene]

Shadow Quickpaw wrote...

savionen wrote...


Pretty much every ship is SUPPOSED to be equipped with Thanix cannons, but every CG movie shows otherwise. It also doesn't take big ships to kill destroyers and capital ships, because small ships can also use thanix cannons. The normandy is just an uber frigate. A Reaper was also killed by a Cain, which is a hand-held ground weapon.

There's also no proof that the Reapers have millions or billions of ships. The only examples you really see are CG movies and them saying they'd blot out the sky or whatever.

Well, how many of those do you think would be needed to capture literally every single star system in Citadel, Terminus, Alliance, and Attican Traverse space? Because according to the Galaxy map, that's what happened right before the final mission (though unsure if they had arrived at Rannoch yet).

We may not have been shown their numbers specifically, but it is implied that Shepard's allies are outnumbered on almost every front. "It took mutliple fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Soverign down; and that was just one Reaper." Plus the Reapers are imune to flanking and other sound strategic manuevers due to their sheer force.

Consider that there is a Capital class reaper for every cycle harvested, and a Destroyer class Reaper for every species harvested minus the main one. These guys have been doing this for a loooooooooong time.

Not to say you don't have valid points however.

Considering most of the galaxies forces were together mostly fighting once force of reapers, you wouldn't need many at all, probably only a dozen or so for most systems. That generally puts the reapers numbers at a few thousand. Supposedly they had arrived at Rannoch, you can't fly over there anymore.

They keep saying multiple fleets but against the citadel defense force, the geth did all the work, and only the Alliance's fifth fleet really had a chance to shoot at Sovereign. He took very little fire from the others. If they were outnumbered on every front, the Reapers would have won already. Ship for ship, they're more powerful. They're not toally immune. The way kinetic barriers work is that the more you shoot the more unstable they become, shooting a reaper from multiple directions would make it easier to bring down. They're not exactly the best aim either, you can dodge them.

That is not always the case. There was no sovereign class ship made during the Prothean cycle, there were probably only destroyers made from the "subservient" races. The Protheans fought really hard too, i doubt the Reapers took no losses. They probably have been doing it for 1-2billion years. Definitely a long time. But there wasn't simply one race that managed to kill a reaper or two. Remember the derelict reaper? That was one race with an enormous cannon, they probably took out more than one with that thing.

Savionen had some good points

Shadow Quickpaw wrote...

I think part of what people are
confused about is that a Reaper (of any class really) is much easier to
defeat once it has landed on a world. In space it doesn't need to
compensate for gravity, so its shields stay up. While planetside it has
to expend ENOURMOUS amounts of power to reduce its mass to remain
grounded, and this leaves its shields almost nill.

Also,almost
every Reaper destroyed prior to the take-back of Earth was a special
circumstance (meant probably to make the player feel bad***. Examples:

Soverign: Shields failed due to Shepard+team taking Saren down at EXACTLY the right moment.

HR
Larvae: No shields to speak of, probably minimal cognition, exposed
"tender bits." Also had its station blown up near a black hole.

Tuchanka Destroyer: Caught off-gaurd by giant Maw while having to simultaniously maintain on-surface

Rannoch
Destroyer: See above, but substitute Maw for ENTIRE QUARIAN FLEET'S
worth of firepower; and then only when the firing mechanism was exposed.

Final Destroyer on Earth: Same as above two, using poached Reaper missile (Thanix; based on Soverign's cannons).

Speaking
of which: Almost every advanced technology baring only the Geth is
jury-rigged, reverse-engineered, left behind, or poached Reaper
technology. From the Mass Relays+Citadel to firearms. Any tactic,
weapon, or technology we have the Reapers came up with first. And have
likely improved upon.

The Reapers also number in the millions, possibly billions.

The Reapers number in the thousands, not millions. If they had millions they would spread accross the galaxy and be literally unstoppable. There would be no battle, there would be only slaughter. If you do the math, account for losses here and there, at their very best, the Reapers would number somewhere ardound 50,000. That is being rather generous though.

The fact they're easier to kill on a world is obvious. We know that. However that didn't really stop Harbinger. The Normandy should have attacked him rather than pick up the squad. On a planet that should have practically been a guaranteed kill.
With the larvae i'd like to point out that even when you blow up the base its inside, most of it survived intact.
Rannoch: Majority of the fleet was still combatting the Geth. A comparitively small portion is attacking the Reaper, so they don't kill you.
You also missed the Hades Cannon Reaper.
The one on Earth is staggered by the Thannix to the face, but its everything else that takes it down. Whether they were thannix or not is up for debate.
Reverse engineering tech from the most powerful weapons in the galaxy, how unthinkable! But the Reapers don't seem to have changed, Sovereign is ancient, but has the same firepower as others. Oddly enough, Harbinger(theorised to be the first Reaper) has the most power. He's able to spam his beam attack and quickly annihlate hammer team. In a ship to ship battle he would probably be able to take out an entire fleet in minutes. They don't really seem to improve anything. The Larval reaper obviously had an incomplete version of a reaper weapon. If it was being upgraded it should have been much tougher. Theres no indication that the Reapers would advance their own technology beyond the current level. Theres no reason too, their current level is enough to allow them to wake down the galaxy, many times over. There are no limitations.
Thannix weapons are doubtfully as strong as reaper guns, but they're smaller, can be mass produced, have no charge time.

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...
3 words: Thanix. Equipped. Fighters.

The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate

in this video you can see a cruiser put some serious hurt on a Sovereign class reaper

Carriers loaded with these (assuming that carriers carry aroud 60 indivdual craft, not out of the question) could cause serious harm to any Reaper force.

imagine
it: 1 carrier disgorges its fighters and retreats,  you have 60
fighters total: 45 Interceptors flying escort, 15 thanix equppied
fighters as your actual attack force, devided into flights of 5, firing
in a rotating sequence every five seocnds (first flight one, then flight
2, etc.)

that would be amazing to see.

It would also make great sense. Which is particulary lacking in the final parts of the game.

[McCredie64]

Because it makes for a better, more satisfying, more epic ending that actually keeps to the themes of the series.

[Joccaren]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

Two years ago, without the ME3 Nerfed Thanix weapons [Seriously, look at the evidence: They were far stronger in ME2], without new advancements in armour and shielding. Seriously, technology moves forward at a rapid rate today. Every couple of years something big comes up. Thankfully we're not putting to much of it towards military, but when we do: The atomic bomb was developed rather quickly all things considered.
Now imagine the speed at which we would progress with Mass Effect Technology and populations. Technology isn't stagnant. Its ever changing, and our ships in ME3 are better equipped than in ME1 [For one, they are all equipped with Thanix weaponry - even though Bioware prefers Star Wars style space battles 'cause they look cool].

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

This is known as Cutscene magic. Its used to disregard lore to make a scene look cool. Codex states 1 Cruiser can defeat a Reaper Destroyer if it gets the jump. Sadly, one cruiser doesn't look to awesome when it only fires like 3 shots.
In addition, that was hardly a good chunk of the quarian Fleet. I didn't see 10000 ships shooting at that Reaper. I saw... 20?
Not even close.

-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

Here's the thing:
A Thresher Maw.
An unarmed creature with no real armour, with no technology, with no sophisticated weaponry, can just tackle and kill a Reaper? Tell me where this is a "Oh, no big deal. That animal was obviously way more powerful" and not a "Holy **** did that dinosaur just take down one of the most advanced ships in the galaxy?"

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

The Turians sacrificed a fair portion of their forces that could be defending Palaven to defend their fuel supply lines in one of the nearby systems. I believe there's a codex entry on that somewhere. Guess what? They successfully fended off Reapers and stopped them from destroying the fuel depots. Apparently the Turians are making victories against the Reapers, just not at Palaven.

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

Hammer is ground forces coming in through air, fighting against superior numbers and weaponry. Yeah, they're going to get Decimated in the initial push. Once they take ground though, they can hold it. Its just taking ground that's the problem.
On the other hand, we have no clue what is up with Sword. What we do know is that they weren't instantly decimated, and even an hour later the fighting is still going strong. Then Shield shows up, and they manage to stop the unstoppable Reapers from reaching and destroying the Crucible, AND they manage to actually push through the Reaper armada to get to the Citadel. From the sounds of things, Sword and Shield are actually winning...

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

Each and every one of which is armed to the teeth with the latest weaponry. The Quarians did this prior to attacking the Geth. Check the Codex.

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

And the initial Reaper attack, and they've lost a lot of their fleets. Guess what though? They're still fielding some damn significant numbers.

-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

Salarians can and will Hold the Line, and perform Spec ops on Earth.
In addition, the Codex states that whislt the Salarian fleets rarely actually fight anyone, they are the best armed and armoured in the Galaxy. A Turian fleet would be decimated by them and their superior technology.
The Asari, however, are quite good at fighting. Prior to the Reapers sending in reinforcements to Zerg rush them, they were winning the fight for Thessia space - preventing the Reapers from reaching Thessia. They would jump in with a small group of ships, open fire on a Reaper, destroy it, then jump out again before they were destroyed. The Codex makes this out as actually being successful.

-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

The evidence that they were winning being?
The fact that you lose if you choose refuse?
Well, that's what we're arguing to change is it not?

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Umm... Where did you get these numbers from, or did you just pull them out of your ass?
Using CONVENTIONAL weaponry [Read: Non Thanix] it is a 4-1 ratio on Capital Ships to Destroyers. 4 will defeat 1. That one might kill one or two whilst its getting raped.
At the Destroyer to Cruiser level, the ratio is 1 to 1.
A Cruiser is probably around 1/4 as powerful as a Dreadnought [250m Ship vs 1Km ship], and thus the Ratio for Cruisers to kill 1 Reaper Capital ship is around 16.
Remember what I said about Thanix being nerfed in ME3 however?
The above numbers are using conventional weaponry.
Now, firstly: Thanix should bypass shields entirely. Why? Heat based weaponry. This means the 3 Dreadnoughts required to take down the shields of a Capital so that 1 Dreadnought can take out the hull are no longer required. 1 - 1 ratio.
In addition, the Codex mentions Thanix giving a fighter/interceptor the firepower of a Cruiser. So, 1 fighter can take down a Reaper Destroyer. 16 Fighters can take down a Reaper Capital ship.
If that is what Fighters scale to, what do Cruisers scale to?
Likely more than a Dreadnought.
What do Dreadnoughts scale to?
Something that kicks Reaper ass.

[Ridwan]

McCredie64 wrote...

Because it makes for a better, more satisfying, more epic ending that actually keeps to the themes of the series.

Yup.

[T-Bone665]

The reasons why conventional victory "should" be possible seem to boil down to a few points.


Kalros killed a Reaper on Tuchanka! Quarians killed a Reaper on Rannoch! One shot from the Cain destroyed the Hades Cannon Reaper!

First off, those were all Reaper Destroyers. The codex tells us that these destroyers and Sovereign-class Dreadnoughts are two very different kinds of Reaper: The Destroyer is stated to be 160 meters long while Dreadnoughts are supposed to be about 2 kilometers.

To put the size difference to scale:

Destroyer
<->

Dreadnought
<--------------------------------->

My point being: just because we can kill Destroyers doesn't mean we can kill Dreadnoughts as easily. In fact, i don't remember seeing any Dreadnought killed on screen at all. One gets a "tentacle" blown off with high enough EMS, but that's about it. There seem to be Dreadnought-corpses foating around the Citadel at the end, but we don't exactly know what killed them.

Also, those three Destroyers were killed in non-normal circumstances. Kalros dragged the Tuchanka one under the ground, where supposedly it was subjected to enormous pressure. The Migrant Fleet opened fire on the Rannoch Destroyer, but we don't know about the force used. They could have been holding back to protect Shepard, they could have been using all they had. The Destroyer carrying the Hades Cannon (if it was a regular destroyer at all) could have had drawbacks for mounting the cannon. Maybe barriers don't work while it fires an enormous energy Weapon off its back. And of course, the destroyer guarding the beam gets killed by Thanix Missiles. The missiles get behind the Reaper's plates and hit the firing chamber, which (iirc from the Rannoch mission) is a weak point. It then gets blasted by more missiles and falls over.

All together, we don't really know what the strengths and weaknesses of Reaper Destroyers are, or how to apply those to the Sovereign-Types.



Some Numbers proving it all!

Every time some numbers are stated, they are basically speculation. We don't know how many Reapers there are and how many of them are Dreadnoughts. One statement i see repeated often (in other threads as well) is that the Reapers create one Dreadnought every cycle. I don't remember being told that only the dominant species is "preserved". After all, the Reapers are harvesting Humans - but there are also processing ships on Palaven.

The codex states that concentrated fire from 4 Dreadnoughts can destroy a Reaper dreadnought. It also says that before the Reaper Invasion, there were less than a houndred of them. Not counting the Quarian Liveships, Geth Dreadnoguth, Batarian ships and most notoriusly, the Kwunu. But how many of them remain after the Homeworlds of all races have been attacked is unclear. "The Fall of Earth" and War Asset texts state that most of the human fleets have come under heavy attack, and some have been utterly destroyed. Even the turians have had to have losses at Palaven.



Thanix Cannons!

Again, speculation here. We don't exaclty know how Thanix Cannons work. Does their firepower scale with gun size, like regular Mass Effect Cannons do, making Dreadnought fire extremely strong? We don't even know what weapons we are seeing in the cutscenes. The wiki states (should be from the codex) that Thanix fire solidifies into projectiles. Maybe we are seeing those. There appear to be larger, brighter shots. But they could also be regular Dreadnoguth fire, or even Torpedoes.

In the end, what does it matter? We see how the Reapers deal with the incoming fire: Ignoring it.




My final thoughts:
I have to agree with what was stated before: Conventional victory is possible. Just not for this cycle. IMO, everything points to victory being unattainable in this cycle. It took every available ship to bring the Crucible in place, and even then, without high EMS, it will be damaged. And in the destroy ending, we get to see Hackett's fleet. Granted, there should still be a few ships around which were not able to reach the rallying point, but i see those remaining ships as the remaining ships overall, with the rest of Shepards impressive armada destroyed.

And remember: If the galaxys forces were to approach a conventional victory, the reapers will not simply let themselves be destroyed. They are extremely patient, cunning and ruthless. They themselves would resort to "unconventional" tactics. E.g., their advanced drives make it possible to retreat and let indoctrinated saboteurs do the work. Javik mentions that there were many horrors seen during the long war.



PS: Damn, this post has become much longer than intended. But i was bored.

[Pantegana]

Here's why:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13011937/1#13012074

[Subject M]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?

Because in no small part due to the fact that 4 Turian Dreadnoughts  managed to destroy one of the Reaper-capital ships. If the Reapers would have been portrayed as more powerful (like 4 Turian Dreadnoughts managed to damage 1 Reaper cruiser and make it retreat but at the cost of having lost 2 Turian Ships) then it would have been another matter.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Zero132132 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Because most of said people probably haven't been in a war.

Let's see what history has to say about "a larger enemy getting trounced by a smaller one".

-The Revolutionary War (Sure, we had French help, but Great Britain still could've crushed us like a bug.)
-The Winter War (Russia attacks Finland. Finland stomps Russian forces outnumbered more than 2:1 and the Russians had better tanks.)
-Battle of Midway (3 US carriers versus 4 Japenese carriers and a HUGE fleet. US wins a stunning victory.)
-Battle of Marathon (Persians greatly outnumber the Greeks. Persians get stomped on.)
-Most of the US Civil War (Despite being outnumbered and under-supplied, the South stomped on the North. The North only managed a victory because we finally found some generals smarter than thier predecessors (And Hackett in ME3)


Let's see what history says about a less advanced army fighting one that is more advanced.
-Vietnam! (Farmers with AK-47's force a US cease fire and withdrawl, when the US had tanks, better fighters, bombers that drop a world of hurt, and a very large navy)

Humans don't fight wars the way the Reapers do. Individual battles you mention don't really count, because that isn't the war, just one battle. In every single war you mentioned, the only necessary objective was to make the war effort costly enough that the invaders decided to just go home. Reapers have no home to return to. You're also not describing battles between enemies with massive disparities in technology.

A more apt description is the invasion of the Americas by Europeans. Better technology, more numbers, no chance that they'll just turn tail and go home... think we know how that one turned out.

This is flawed, since many of the peoples the Europeans invaded were still incredibly powerful (especially in North America) and the only real advantage Europeans had was their use of slaves in their conquests, along with the diseases they brought with them that effectively crippled the population of the various peoples they visited. 

[a load of stanton]

conventional victory is possible but lame ass bioware decided that oh were to,lazy to do it how about we do lame ass space magic ending yay!!!!!!!!!! everyone will love that f

few months later.......................................

[Blacklash93]

Because if it was the Crucible would not exist and it wouldn't be said to be impossible every other time we talk to Hackett or Anderson. It's Word of God when you take into account some interviews. That definitely beats out speculation and conjecture.

Keep in mind that this isn't a debate of whether conventional victory would have been a better ending.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:30 .

[drak4806.2]

With the ME1 version of the Reapers where they "would darken the skies of every world"; it taking them few centuries to wipe out the Protheans was because the galaxy is massive and they wanted to make sure that they got every single last Prothean; and where Sovereign was only destroyed when its shields collapsed after Shepard killed its Saren puppet conventional victory was not possible.

With the ME3 version where the few thousand Reapers are idiots who don't understand what orbital bombardment or weapons of mass destruction are, conventional victory may have been possible.

[Ryzaki]

Because ME has so much damn space magic making a conventional victory possible wouldn't have been that much of a stretch is why OP.

[Baa Baa]

Because overcoming impossible odds and stopping a race of incredibly powerfully foes is way cooler than escorting a big ol' reaper EMP, control device, synthesizer to the Citadel.

[Legion of 1337]

I second T-Bone's assessment.

Seriously, we can take out individual Reaper Destroyers here and there. But the only time we ever see the Reapers in strength is on Earth, where they obliterate most of Hackett's fleet. Sovereign-class Reapers simply barrel right through his ships to stop Hammer - you can see in the space battles how those things can charge headlong into hundreds of guns and just plow through them. Not to mention that Harbinger is virtually indestructible.

That's why in the Refuse ending, you lose. Pick a different ending and look at how many ships are left from Hackett's fleet at the end - it's pitiful, and they didn't destroy any sizable portion of the Reaper forces.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I second T-Bone's assessment.

Seriously, we can take out individual Reaper Destroyers here and there. But the only time we ever see the Reapers in strength is on Earth, where they obliterate most of Hackett's fleet. Sovereign-class Reapers simply barrel right through his ships to stop Hammer - you can see in the space battles how those things can charge headlong into hundreds of guns and just plow through them. Not to mention that Harbinger is virtually indestructible.

That's why in the Refuse ending, you lose. Pick a different ending and look at how many ships are left from Hackett's fleet at the end - it's pitiful, and they didn't destroy any sizable portion of the Reaper forces.

In-game as ME3's currently written, the Reapers are unbeatable. However, when we take ME 1 and ME 2, along with certain developments in ME3 into account, a conventional victory is more than possible. Assuming the best possible outcome in terms of your choices (i.e. geth and quarians make peace, genophage cured with Wrex alive, Rachni queen survives, etc.) there are way too many variables that were basically ignored in the writing to make the Reapers unbeatable. When the lore is taken into account in its entirety, it's more than possible. The one thing that matters most, as it did in ME1, would be the Citadel. Reclaiming that - and most likely sacrificing most if not all of Earth in exchange - would dramatically increase the galaxy's chances of overcoming the Reapers.

EDIT: Hell, destroying the Citadel would probably be the best alternative to gaurantee the Reapers never have a chance to use it again.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:25 .

[Joccaren]

T-Bone665 wrote...
Thanix Cannons!

Again, speculation here. We don't exaclty know how Thanix Cannons work. Does their firepower scale with gun size, like regular Mass Effect Cannons do, making Dreadnought fire extremely strong? We don't even know what weapons we are seeing in the cutscenes. The wiki states (should be from the codex) that Thanix fire solidifies into projectiles. Maybe we are seeing those. There appear to be larger, brighter shots. But they could also be regular Dreadnoguth fire, or even Torpedoes.

In the end, what does it matter? We see how the Reapers deal with the incoming fire: Ignoring it.

Not going to comment on the rest of it, as its all fair, but this there is evidence that implies certain things.

For one, the Kwunu. It is a dreadnought. All of its guns - including its main canon - are Thanix. If Thanix guns do not scale, then the Kwunu is literally just an expensive Cruiser - 1 Thanix canon carries the same firepower as a cruiser.
A second point on this issue is the Reapers themselves. Thanix is their gun. It uses the exact same principles, and exact same ammunition. The Reapers guns, however, are far more powerful than just a Cruiser's firepower. How? They are larger ships, and have more energy to convert to heat and Mass Effect Fields, allowing the effectiveness of their Thanix guns to improve. Their guns may also be more efficient then ours, so the scaling is not linear, however this shows that Thanix weaponry can be increased in firepower beyond that of a Cruiser.

I highly doubt that what we see in the "Sword" fight is Thanix fire. The projectiles match the profile of Missiles like those seen in the battle for the Citadel in ME1 far closer then they match the Profile of the Thanix 'Beam' seen fired from the Normandy in ME2.

As to what does it matter: To negate the statements of "We see Thanix fire in the "Sword" fight, and the Reapers ignore it, therefore its obviously not powerful at all". We see fire in the Sword fight, however it appears to be conventional, not Thanix. Therefore there is still the chance that Thanix weaponry would have done something had it been used in the Cutscenes.

However, all this does not matter under the broad flag of "Cinematic Magic". What is in the cinematics is made to look cool, not be accurate. Therefore, Sword's first wave of fire might have obliterated a number of Reapers. However, to get across the fact that the Reapers are strong, we see it doing nothing. We have no actual idea of how our odds are based from the "Sword" fight as it does not follow lore in any way shape or form.

[Kamfrenchie]

Again, the big problem we have here, with the reapers being so powerful, unstoppable, charging through heavy fire etc, is that then it makes no sense the crucible can get to the citadel.
The reapers can just ignore the escort an bumrush the crucible if they are that powerful

[TheClonesLegacy]

Refusal already proves you all wrong.
Enough said.
You can't win conventionally

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[Kamfrenchie]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Refusal already proves you all wrong.
Enough said.
You can't win conventionally

chers for missing the point. e know the writer wrte them to be undefeatablein ME3. Our pooint is that befor ME3 and the EC, "conventionnal victory" or raher a victory without DEM woulld have been possible.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Refusal already proves you all wrong.
Enough said.
You can't win conventionally

chers for missing the point. e know the writer wrte them to be undefeatablein ME3. Our pooint is that befor ME3 and the EC, "conventionnal victory" or raher a victory without DEM woulld have been possible.

Nah I prefer Avoiding the Point,
However it was obvious that Conventional Victory wasn't ever going to be possible,
Remember sure the Fleets could take out a couple dozen Reapers But you need to Remember there are Hundreds of Thousands of Reapers. It's obvious the Galaxy wasn't going to win without a Deus Ex Machina.
Btw Chers fer Speelchacking.

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .

[savionen]

Space magic to make Crucible victory possible? Possible!
Space magic to make conventional victory possible? Impossible!

Makes sense.

Oh look the Crucible turns off Reaper shields, now we need a big enough army to actually defeat them based on EMS, the end.

Modifié par savionen, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i dont see how someone could think a conventianal victory isnt possible for the MEuniverse. all bioware would have to do is add a little........

SPACE MAGIC.

there, now conventional victory is possible.

its easy, when your bioware!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .

[Bleachrude]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I second T-Bone's assessment.

Seriously, we can take out individual Reaper Destroyers here and there. But the only time we ever see the Reapers in strength is on Earth, where they obliterate most of Hackett's fleet. Sovereign-class Reapers simply barrel right through his ships to stop Hammer - you can see in the space battles how those things can charge headlong into hundreds of guns and just plow through them. Not to mention that Harbinger is virtually indestructible.

.

In-game as ME3's currently written, the Reapers are unbeatable. However, when we take ME 1 and ME 2, along with certain developments in ME3 into account, a conventional victory is more than possible. .

Going by ME1, I would say a conventional victory was just not possible.

1 Reaper is NOT invincible (both ME3 and ME1 agree with this). However 1 Capital Reaper is EASILY more than equivalent to 3 organic races D (again, both ME1 and ME3 agree on this point).

So the only question becomes , "how many capital ships do the Reapers have"?

ME1 simply tells us how often the cycle occurs with Soveeign addingt he quip, "we will darken the skies above all the worlds" , ME2 tells us how long the cycle has been occuring and how the Reapers replenish their forces.

Nowhere does ME3 come out and contradict ANY of those points....

So yeah, going by ME1 and ME2, conventional victory wasn't possible...

[Kamfrenchie]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Refusal already proves you all wrong.
Enough said.
You can't win conventionally

chers for missing the point. e know the writer wrte them to be undefeatablein ME3. Our pooint is that befor ME3 and the EC, "conventionnal victory" or raher a victory without DEM woulld have been possible.

Nah I prefer Avoiding the Point,
However it was obvious that Conventional Victory wasn't ever going to be possible,
Remember sure the Fleets could take out a couple dozen Reapers But you need to Remember there are Hundreds of Thousands of Reapers. It's obvious the Galaxy wasn't going to win without a Deus Ex Machina.
Btw Chers fer Speelchacking.

My Toshiba keyboard is an unsensitive piece of junk, apologies.

But you have no proof of how many reapers there are. You ay hundreds of thousands,  I'd say 10 000 at most.

Deus ex mchinas are never justifiable.

[Kamfrenchie]

Bleachrude wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I second T-Bone's assessment.

Seriously, we can take out individual Reaper Destroyers here and there. But the only time we ever see the Reapers in strength is on Earth, where they obliterate most of Hackett's fleet. Sovereign-class Reapers simply barrel right through his ships to stop Hammer - you can see in the space battles how those things can charge headlong into hundreds of guns and just plow through them. Not to mention that Harbinger is virtually indestructible.

.

In-game as ME3's currently written, the Reapers are unbeatable. However, when we take ME 1 and ME 2, along with certain developments in ME3 into account, a conventional victory is more than possible. .

Going by ME1, I would say a conventional victory was just not possible.

1 Reaper is NOT invincible (both ME3 and ME1 agree with this). However 1 Capital Reaper is EASILY more than equivalent to 3 organic races D (again, both ME1 and ME3 agree on this point).

So the only question becomes , "how many capital ships do the Reapers have"?

ME1 simply tells us how often the cycle occurs with Soveeign addingt he quip, "we will darken the skies above all the worlds" , ME2 tells us how long the cycle has been occuring and how the Reapers replenish their forces.

Nowhere does ME3 come out and contradict ANY of those points....

So yeah, going by ME1 and ME2, conventional victory wasn't possible...

What soveeign says can just be exageration of just a nice metaphor. Note that they drken the shy, they don't blot the sun

+ How can we be sure each cycle means 1 more sovereign ? Many cycles could not have eveolvd civilisations, or could have some reapers killed, or a race unfit for " reaperisation"