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[TheClonesLegacy]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Refusal already proves you all wrong.
Enough said.
You can't win conventionally

chers for missing the point. e know the writer wrte them to be undefeatablein ME3. Our pooint is that befor ME3 and the EC, "conventionnal victory" or raher a victory without DEM woulld have been possible.

Nah I prefer Avoiding the Point,
However it was obvious that Conventional Victory wasn't ever going to be possible,
Remember sure the Fleets could take out a couple dozen Reapers But you need to Remember there are Hundreds of Thousands of Reapers. It's obvious the Galaxy wasn't going to win without a Deus Ex Machina.
Btw Chers fer Speelchacking.

My Toshiba keyboard is an unsensitive piece of junk, apologies.

But you have no proof of how many reapers there are. You ay hundreds of thousands,  I'd say 10 000 at most.

It's cool bro
anyway

Of course I don't, but It would make sense as Reapers are at every inch of the Milky Way, Consider the Amount of Reapers able to be at Earth, Palavan, Tuchanka, and Thessia, Planets of the Strongest Species in the Galaxy and then the amount to go to Other planets, it would be Several Hundred Thousand by a rough estimate.

As for a Deus Ex Machina,
The Writers wrote themselves into a corner by making the Reapers OP to hell, it was the only way out.

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[Qeylis]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

My Toshiba keyboard is an unsensitive piece of junk, apologies.

But you have no proof of how many reapers there are. You ay hundreds of thousands,  I'd say 10 000 at most.

Deus ex mchinas are never justifiable.

Never.  

Any ending is better than Deus ex Machina.  That is why a conventional victory is possible, because Deus ex Machina is impossible.

But, 10% of the population likes Deus ex Machina, so maybe they made this horrible ending for them.

[T-Bone665]

Joccaren wrote...

For one, the Kwunu. It is a dreadnought. All of its guns - including its main canon - are Thanix. If Thanix guns do not scale, then the Kwunu is literally just an expensive Cruiser - 1 Thanix canon carries the same firepower as a cruiser.
A second point on this issue is the Reapers themselves. Thanix is their gun. It uses the exact same principles, and exact same ammunition. The Reapers guns, however, are far more powerful than just a Cruiser's firepower. How? They are larger ships, and have more energy to convert to heat and Mass Effect Fields, allowing the effectiveness of their Thanix guns to improve. Their guns may also be more efficient then ours, so the scaling is not linear, however this shows that Thanix weaponry can be increased in firepower beyond that of a Cruiser.

You are right about that. I've always seen the Thanix more as a crude Turian copy of the original gun, but is indeed simply downscaled.

Joccaren wrote...
However, all this does not matter under the broad flag of "Cinematic Magic". What is in the cinematics is made to look cool, not be accurate. Therefore, Sword's first wave of fire might have obliterated a number of Reapers. However, to get across the fact that the Reapers are strong, we see it doing nothing. We have no actual idea of how our odds are based from the "Sword" fight as it does not follow lore in any way shape or form.

Yes, there is "Cinemtatic Magic" going on. I brought the Salarians to the battle but they are not shown because Bioware didn't want to design their ships. Reapers always fire red beams and our ships always fire blue projectiles. For the sake of the lore, cutscenes should not be taken too literally.

But they are not only for being cool, their purpose is also to convey story. If the message of a cutscene is clear, shouldn't that be what's taken from it? Discarding too much of what is seen just leaves a void that can be filled with anything.


The story was built around the Reapers being unstoppable by conventional force. I think what the cutscenes convey supports that. Imo, Bioware made the "mistake" of making the Reapers look weak because of the Turian victories over them, which seem to conflict with the greater picture.

And i actually like the deus ex machina - it being improved upon by countless previous cycles makes it a lot less bull****-y for me. At least if you ignore the Synthesis ending.
I know that I would not have liked a war winning ending, partly because it diminishes the whole reaper threat.
And because i don't consider the galaxy's military to be that strong. The Protheans were masters of war, and should have had more firepower. Granted, they fell into the citadel trap, but i still see ourselves as inferior to them.

Modifié par T-Bone665, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[MegaSovereign]

....What do you mean..."you people?"

[Urdnot Amenark]

Bleachrude wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I second T-Bone's assessment.

Seriously, we can take out individual Reaper Destroyers here and there. But the only time we ever see the Reapers in strength is on Earth, where they obliterate most of Hackett's fleet. Sovereign-class Reapers simply barrel right through his ships to stop Hammer - you can see in the space battles how those things can charge headlong into hundreds of guns and just plow through them. Not to mention that Harbinger is virtually indestructible.

.

In-game as ME3's currently written, the Reapers are unbeatable. However, when we take ME 1 and ME 2, along with certain developments in ME3 into account, a conventional victory is more than possible. .

Going by ME1, I would say a conventional victory was just not possible.

1 Reaper is NOT invincible (both ME3 and ME1 agree with this). However 1 Capital Reaper is EASILY more than equivalent to 3 organic races D (again, both ME1 and ME3 agree on this point).

So the only question becomes , "how many capital ships do the Reapers have"?

ME1 simply tells us how often the cycle occurs with Soveeign addingt he quip, "we will darken the skies above all the worlds" , ME2 tells us how long the cycle has been occuring and how the Reapers replenish their forces.

Nowhere does ME3 come out and contradict ANY of those points....

So yeah, going by ME1 and ME2, conventional victory wasn't possible...

You only mention two points, and judging by the accomplishments that Shepard and his allies make, a conventional victory is definitely suggested to be possible. They're even shown at the denouement of the second game to be using vital data they collected to study the Reapers. ME 2 just tells us the Protheans failed and were turned into slaves of the Reapers, but it also tells us that a cure for the genophage is possible, that Commander Shepard is more than capable of succeeding at impossible odds, peace between the geth and quarians is possible, that the Rachni are more than capable and prepared to help fight the Reapers that originally indoctrinated them, and that the destruction of Sovereign has led to several technological advancements, including the creation of EDI. We already knew how long the cycle had been lasting in ME 1: every fifty thousand years or so for possibly millions of years, considering the civilizations Liara had posited existed before the Protheans. Even Javik begins to believe it's possible, and he has firsthand experience in the previous cycle of extinction, so if anyone is the best proof a conventional victory would be possible, it'd be him.

Of course, you're free to interpret the story how you will. As I mentioned before, this is a debate that can go either way, and unfortunately, outside of main canon, we'll have absolutely no way of knowing.

EDIT: Assuming the cycles had really lasted as the oldest dated Reaper - the Leviathan of Dis, if I remember correctly, at one billion years old - and one Capital Ship is made each time, with none of them destroyed, there'd be about 20,000 of them alone, so they're definitely an intimidating force overall. But victory is just improbable, not impossible.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:44 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

[quote]iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

[quote]The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack



Well guys?[/quote]

[quote]The Migrant fleet now has more dreadnought class weapon ships than anyone, which is against the rules.
All of their ships are armed for warfare with the latest and best technology.[/quote]

As Joker said: "Putting cannons on agriculture doesn't make them magically a dreadnought. Without armor their just glass cannons." Admiral Raan even states while the quarians have more ships the turians are still better than they have the better military. Also the quarians never have had the latest and best technology.

[quote]The alliance fleet is barely weakened bytthe Sovereign/Geth attack, destiny ascension more than makes up for it.[/quote]

If you save the Council and read the assets menu you would learn that the fleet is still rebuilding after that battle  even by the start of Mass Effect 3, and while I have no doubt that the Destiny Ascension is a powerful ship against any Reaper capital ship it's going to be scrap metal.  

[quote]Hammer was not been overrun, I had many N7 squads fighting there and they were doing good.[/quote]

Funny thing I seem to recall the Major saying that they were over run by the time Shepard reached the conduit. 
 
[quote]The Quarians were shooting the Rannoch reaper with light weapons as more powerful ones would  have killed Shepard too.
They faced sovereign without Thanix cannons.[/quote]

That's because the vast majority of the Quarian fleet have light weapons they did little damage to the geth dreadnought before Shepard took down it's shields.

The only reason why Sovereign was defeated was because it was plugged into Saren and when Shepard killed Saren the feedback took down its shields long enough for every human, turian, asari, and salarian ship there to destroy it.

[The Spamming Troll]

out of all the impossabilities ME3 brings up(mostly at end game) im not sure how its so easy to agree with the assessment that "conventional victory is impossible."

if nothing was possible thered be no starchild.

think about that for a few seconds!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:55 .

[dreman9999]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

out of all the impossabilities ME3 brings up(mostly at end game) im not sure how its so easy to agree with the assessment that "conventional victory is impossible."

if nothing was possible thered be no starchild.

think about that for a few seconds!

The starchild is all the mind of the reaper at once. That's possible.

The reaper have unlimited ammounts of husk forces they use to over take there enemies. They make thevia cloning and huskafication. Unlimited forces>>>>>limited forces.
That's impossible to beat. And the first person to say the reaper have a limited ammount of reaper clearly didn't read what I wrote.

[Urdnot Amenark]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

out of all the impossabilities ME3 brings up(mostly at end game) im not sure how its so easy to agree with the assessment that "conventional victory is impossible."

if nothing was possible thered be no starchild.

think about that for a few seconds!

The starchild is all the mind of the reaper at once. That's possible.

The reaper have unlimited ammounts of husk forces they use to over take there enemies. They make thevia cloning and huskafication. Unlimited forces>>>>>limited forces.
That's impossible to beat. And the first person to say the reaper have a limited ammount of reaper clearly didn't read what I wrote.

Destroy the Catalyst and you effectively cripple the Reapers, who are controlled and guided by the Catalyst. Of course this would only be possible if Shepard ordered this after meeting the Catalyst - which probably would require the destruction of the Citadel - but it's definitely something that isn't hard to accomplish.

[Cadeym]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

1) -It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back

2) -It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back

3) -It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.

4) -The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.

5) -Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.

6) -The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships

7) -The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack

8) -It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.

9) -The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.

10) -It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?

1) Non-Thanix weapons don't ignore (or partially ignore) shields. It is highly unlikely that the races wouldn't have mounted massive Thanix cannons on every dreadnought they had.

2) No major weapons were used during this fight. A cruiser fires a slug that has the equivalent impact of a 38-kiloton bomb. For every action there is equal and oposit reaction. That means that had these slugs been used then the force of the explotions would have decimated the entire area and Shepard (and every other living thing) would be dead.

3) Other than using the underpowered Thanix weapons (stop nerfing perfectly good weapons BioWare) no other tactic was attempted. We have no proof that a nuke can't destroy a Destroyer.

4) You obviously mean the most active and numerous military force in the galaxy. Which is not the same as the best.

5) From my point of view Hammer didn't have that many problems. I ofcourse assume that there were more than a few tousand troops committed to this operation.

6) The quarian ships are less durable than most alliance ships.. but they have more guns.

7) Gimmick... only 8 (or was it 9) Alliance cruisers were lost.

8) Conventional wars involve more than simply shooting a gun. Information gathering and sabotage happen in every war.

9) Indeed, and those Reapers were being combated by forces that probably remained on the planets where they were. The majority of the Turian population have either been in the military or are in it. I highly doubt that the entire Turian population was relocated to Earth.

10) A single dreadnought managed to kill a Reaper.
An electromagnetic pulse could possibly produce damaging current and voltage surges.

I only have one more thing to say.... BioWare please read the art of war by Sun Tzu the next time you decide to have military operations in your games.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 08 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

Mouseraider wrote...

3) Other than using the underpowered Thanix weapons (stop nerfing perfectly good weapons BioWare) no other tactic was attempted. We have no proof that a nuke can't destroy a Destroyer.

There's definitely no proof of that. The Cain alone could take out a Destroyer. Nukes would mop the floor with them.

5) From my point of view Hammer didn't have that many problems. I ofcourse assume that there were more than a few tousand troops committed to this operation.

Yeah, Hammer's success depends on EMS. On default, Hammer is having lot's of trouble.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 08 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[malakim2099]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

out of all the impossabilities ME3 brings up(mostly at end game) im not sure how its so easy to agree with the assessment that "conventional victory is impossible."

if nothing was possible thered be no starchild.

think about that for a few seconds!

The starchild is all the mind of the reaper at once. That's possible.

The reaper have unlimited ammounts of husk forces they use to over take there enemies. They make thevia cloning and huskafication. Unlimited forces>>>>>limited forces.
That's impossible to beat. And the first person to say the reaper have a limited ammount of reaper clearly didn't read what I wrote.

Destroy the Catalyst and you effectively cripple the Reapers, who are controlled and guided by the Catalyst. Of course this would only be possible if Shepard ordered this after meeting the Catalyst - which probably would require the destruction of the Citadel - but it's definitely something that isn't hard to accomplish.

Or... EDI is programmed in anti-Reaper cyberwarfare, isn't she? Patch her through to have a more... DIRECT, conversation with the Starkid.

Maybe not a "conventional" victory, but compared to the RGB and being offered your choice of ending by the primary antagonist? I'll take it.

[Durhon]

You guys have to take into account that when the Reapers first started their intention wasn't to wipe us out completely. They were harvesting the races if their intention was to wipe the races out completely they would of severely crippled any resistance quickly.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Durhon wrote...

You guys have to take into account that when the Reapers first started their intention wasn't to wipe us out completely. They were harvesting the races if their intention was to wipe the races out completely they would of severely crippled any resistance quickly.

Their primary goal was to severely cripple any resistance but they failed re: Saren. Since the leaders of the Galactic Community always end up being established at the Citadel in each cycle, their goal was to use the Citadel to bring the Reapers into the system and wipe the Council and the other leaders out first. That was the first serious setback the Reapers experienced.

EDIT: Malakim2099, that makes perfect sense. EDI would be more than capable of solving that problem. Kinda funny how these things are overlooked until after the fact. Tis' life, I guess.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 08 juillet 2012 - 06:12 .

[Durhon]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Durhon wrote...

You guys have to take into account that when the Reapers first started their intention wasn't to wipe us out completely. They were harvesting the races if their intention was to wipe the races out completely they would of severely crippled any resistance quickly.

Their primary goal was to severely cripple any resistance but they failed re: Saren. Since the leaders of the Galactic Community always end up being established at the Citadel in each cycle, their goal was to use the Citadel to bring the Reapers into the system and wipe them out first. That was the first serious setback the Reapers experienced.

Yes, however I remember Anderson saying the Reapers were harvesting major cities so that is buying them some time. The Reapers intent ins't to wipe us out but to preserve/harvest us. They could wipe everything out if they wanted to quickly. Not the decades it would take if they normally while harvesting. Conventional victory simply isn't possible against them.

[Bleachrude]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...


EDIT: Assuming the cycles had really lasted as the oldest dated Reaper - the Leviathan of Dis, if I remember correctly, at one billion years old - and one Capital Ship is made each time, with none of them destroyed, there'd be about 20,000 of them alone, so they're definitely an intimidating force overall. But victory is just improbable, not impossible.

Without a desu ex machina?

Not a chance unless you assume Reapers are stupid and will kindly allow themselves to be stunned AGAIN.

20000 Sovereigns + at least equivalent number of support destroyers

Plus their logisticl, strategic and tactical advantages?

Seriously, NO. Just NO.

[Kamfrenchie]

T-Bone665 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

For one, the Kwunu. It is a dreadnought. All of its guns - including its main canon - are Thanix. If Thanix guns do not scale, then the Kwunu is literally just an expensive Cruiser - 1 Thanix canon carries the same firepower as a cruiser.
A second point on this issue is the Reapers themselves. Thanix is their gun. It uses the exact same principles, and exact same ammunition. The Reapers guns, however, are far more powerful than just a Cruiser's firepower. How? They are larger ships, and have more energy to convert to heat and Mass Effect Fields, allowing the effectiveness of their Thanix guns to improve. Their guns may also be more efficient then ours, so the scaling is not linear, however this shows that Thanix weaponry can be increased in firepower beyond that of a Cruiser.

You are right about that. I've always seen the Thanix more as a crude Turian copy of the original gun, but is indeed simply downscaled.

Joccaren wrote...
However, all this does not matter under the broad flag of "Cinematic Magic". What is in the cinematics is made to look cool, not be accurate. Therefore, Sword's first wave of fire might have obliterated a number of Reapers. However, to get across the fact that the Reapers are strong, we see it doing nothing. We have no actual idea of how our odds are based from the "Sword" fight as it does not follow lore in any way shape or form.

Yes, there is "Cinemtatic Magic" going on. I brought the Salarians to the battle but they are not shown because Bioware didn't want to design their ships. Reapers always fire red beams and our ships always fire blue projectiles. For the sake of the lore, cutscenes should not be taken too literally.

But they are not only for being cool, their purpose is also to convey story. If the message of a cutscene is clear, shouldn't that be what's taken from it? Discarding too much of what is seen just leaves a void that can be filled with anything.


The story was built around the Reapers being unstoppable by conventional force. I think what the cutscenes convey supports that. Imo, Bioware made the "mistake" of making the Reapers look weak because of the Turian victories over them, which seem to conflict with the greater picture.

And i actually like the deus ex machina - it being improved upon by countless previous cycles makes it a lot less bull****-y for me. At least if you ignore the Synthesis ending.
I know that I would not have liked a war winning ending, partly because it diminishes the whole reaper threat.
And because i don't consider the galaxy's military to be that strong. The Protheans were masters of war, and should have had more firepower. Granted, they fell into the citadel trap, but i still see ourselves as inferior to them.

I wont criticize you for liking the DEM, because that's your taste, but it's still terrible writing, it's the very definition of the term.
And it being made by several  cycle is just nonsensical. The reapers wipe out nigh everything every cycle, methodically. I don't buy that they would have missed it so many times. And no one knowshowit works, nor knows the catalyst, yet somehow it alters it...

Think about it. Which is more threatening or satisfying to fight ? An army of powerful competent persons with intelligent leaders ?
Or a bunch of demigod-like space magic monsters  that happens to have an "off button" ?

For me, it's option 1.

(Think about it, the WW2 Germany was a huge threat because it had good equipment, good tatics and officers, etc.)

[babachewie]

Its not possible, but keep f*ckin the chicken

[Urdnot Amenark]

Bleachrude wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...


EDIT: Assuming the cycles had really lasted as the oldest dated Reaper - the Leviathan of Dis, if I remember correctly, at one billion years old - and one Capital Ship is made each time, with none of them destroyed, there'd be about 20,000 of them alone, so they're definitely an intimidating force overall. But victory is just improbable, not impossible.

Without a desu ex machina?

Not a chance unless you assume Reapers are stupid and will kindly allow themselves to be stunned AGAIN.

20000 Sovereigns + at least equivalent number of support destroyers

Plus their logisticl, strategic and tactical advantages?

Seriously, NO. Just NO.

Which they didn't seem to have based on what was shown in the scenes of ME 3. Secondly, going purely by numbers isn't going to work for either side, since there are way more variables to account for and space battle won't fare the same. You seem to have also forgotten EDI's anti-Reaper programming and the Geth's latest upgrade with Reaper technology, which definitely serves as a powerful check in the advantages you keep touting. But, as I and numerous others in countless threads making arguments about this have already noted, the deciding factor of this war would be the Citadel. You gain control of or destroy the Citadel, and you obliterate the Reaper's greatest advantage. Even with the Relays going dark in the previous cycle and the Prothean Empire in tatters due to an inability to adjust let alone ally together, they nearly created a working Crucible, succeeding in creating Vigil, and lasted for nearly one century before being harvested entirely. Obviously, those 20000 Capital Ships in addition to the legions of other Reaper ships aren't as adept as we believe them to be.

[Bhaal]

Well destroying the closest Mass Relay to Earth would be enough for a conventional victory. And hey! we would lose only one race!

Also making babies and dreadnoughts easier and faster than producing a reaper.

[The Spamming Troll]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

out of all the impossabilities ME3 brings up(mostly at end game) im not sure how its so easy to agree with the assessment that "conventional victory is impossible."

if nothing was possible thered be no starchild.

think about that for a few seconds!

The starchild is all the mind of the reaper at once. That's possible.

so the reaper hive mind penetrated shepards mind and saw he was having weird dreams about some kid so the reaper collective decided to use the child as a representation of the voice of the reapers? instead of whats that one guys name? you know, the one guy from ME2? i think he was set up to be the main villain, oh yeah its harbinger, DUH. oops, bioware.

its almost like you can claim anything about anything with ME3s ending just because whatever + space magic always makes sense in the MEuniverse.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

It's actually possible to take out Reaper Destroyers with a Cain as the ending shows us. Too bad Bioware never really conceptualized how powerful a Reaper is so they're basically as resilient as the story needs them to be.

[MysticSpace]

77boy84 wrote...

The narrative of "The reapers are unstoppable, we NEED the crucible!" only existed in ME3.
In the other two games, you were preparing for a conventional war with them. You knew it would be rough, but you also knew that if you could unite EVERYONE and prepare enough, you could win by the skin of your teeth.

It has nothing to do with facts, it has everything to do with how Bioware wanted the story to be told, and they shifted directions at the last minute, so they could ignore build up from the last two games, and make the third game the only one relevant to the trilogy to get "new players"

Nobody was preparing for the reapers.  Once Sovereign was dead the council sent Shepard to kill more geth in the Traverse a month later the ME2 happened.  As soon as Shepard died the council dismissed the claims about the reapers and went back to doing what they were doing, before absolutely nothing. Garrus went to play Batman, Tali went home, Wrex went home, Liara starred in a comic, and Kaiden stayed in the military and didn't do a damn thing to help. Throughout ME2 you're after screwing about killing merc groups in remote locations and solving daddy and betrayal issues.  When the reapers hit they rip through the Earth's defenses and destroy the Earth Defense Council in moments of landing.