Cains or Fleets, Cains or Fleets.
Why do people keep insisting that conventional victory is possible?
Débuté par
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
, juil. 03 2012 12:28
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#577
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:04
Dark_Caduceus
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As the ending showed us, Destroyer class Reapers can be killed by CAINs. There must be thousands upon thousands of CAINs in existence and I'm sure you could make them much quicker than ships.
Just arm automated defence turrets with CAINs and the Reaper ground war should be finished in a couple of weeks.
Just arm automated defence turrets with CAINs and the Reaper ground war should be finished in a couple of weeks.
#578
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:13
3DandBeyond
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jstme wrote...
I just want to point out (again) that ME3 story is work of fiction. Writers found it possible to write synthesis in. Writing in conventional vicoty needed one thing - will to do so.
Thus Reapers could not be won over conventionally only for that one reason - lack of the will to write it this way.
Reasons behind lack of that will are unclear to me - but i am 100% sure that it is not due to feeling that it will be against ME narrative and setting of the universe in previous games. Proof - look at synthesis which is 100% against ME narrative and does not fit in setting of previous games and yet there it is.
This is exactly right. It's only because the writers decided it was impossible. And people need to stop thinking it means just one big shootout. Unconventional conventional warfare.
#579
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:15
3DandBeyond
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Dark_Caduceus wrote...
As the ending showed us, Destroyer class Reapers can be killed by CAINs. There must be thousands upon thousands of CAINs in existence and I'm sure you could make them much quicker than ships.
Just arm automated defence turrets with CAINs and the Reaper ground war should be finished in a couple of weeks.
Super Cains instead of Mr. Space MacGuffin.
#580
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:18
PoisonMushroom
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jstme wrote...
I just want to point out (again) that ME3 story is work of fiction. Writers found it possible to write synthesis in. Writing in conventional vicoty needed one thing - will to do so.
Thus Reapers could not be won over conventionally only for that one reason - lack of the will to write it this way.
Reasons behind lack of that will are unclear to me - but i am 100% sure that it is not due to feeling that it will be against ME narrative and setting of the universe in previous games. Proof - look at synthesis which is 100% against ME narrative and does not fit in setting of previous games and yet there it is.
Also this.
Crunch the numbers all you want but the only real reason the Reaper's couldn't be defeated 'conventionally' is because Bioware said so.
#581
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:21
Klijpope
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All the examples of smaller, weaker forces beating superior opposition in RL aren't really relevant.
The US could have 'beaten' Vietnam if they were willing (and allowed by the USSR) to nuke it out of existence. And some of it is addressed in game. Reapers do not require fuel or have supply lines, one of the 'bread & butter' targets for a guerilla force.
The analogy is more of humans vs ants, where the humans outnumber the ants, and the floor is smooth concrete, without cracks. An isolated human could be taken out by the ants, if he was unlucky or dumb, but if there's more than one boot for every ant, then it is pretty much curtains for them. Even if different ant species ally together, even with bees and wasps, if the humans still outnumber them, then it's toast time.
The Reapers outnumber the allied fleets by several orders of magnitude.
The US could have 'beaten' Vietnam if they were willing (and allowed by the USSR) to nuke it out of existence. And some of it is addressed in game. Reapers do not require fuel or have supply lines, one of the 'bread & butter' targets for a guerilla force.
The analogy is more of humans vs ants, where the humans outnumber the ants, and the floor is smooth concrete, without cracks. An isolated human could be taken out by the ants, if he was unlucky or dumb, but if there's more than one boot for every ant, then it is pretty much curtains for them. Even if different ant species ally together, even with bees and wasps, if the humans still outnumber them, then it's toast time.
The Reapers outnumber the allied fleets by several orders of magnitude.
#582
Guest_alleyd_*
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 06:47
Guest_alleyd_*
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Using the ME Wiki and codex entries that mention that Reapers main defence is kinetic barriers. So some non kinetic weapons could come into play.
One method could be a Roman Candle type multiple launcher. Inspired by the MLRS on steroids
There is a weapon under development called Metal Storm, a system capable of firing grenades at 500,000 rpm using electronic firing and multiple launchers
Apply this 20th century tech to ME to fire salvos of small, fast missiles equipped with precision shaped Nuclear warheads.
In atmosphere the thermal damage will impact direct to Reaper barriers, blast damage also and EMP also.
In space it will have concentrated radiation effect that fries spaceships and electronics
Equip swarms of small fast and agile craft and strafe Reapers from mid to long range. A death by a thousand cuts approach.
#583
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 07:42
Archonsg
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malakim2099 wrote...
T-Bone665 wrote...
True, most if not all Hanar has said was either wrong or just an assumption. Many of the points made for conventional victory being possible fall in the same categories.
In the end, all argumentation stands against a "word of god". The reapers are said to be unbeatable in direct confrontation, so imo we have to accept that they are unless there is undisputable evidence otherwise. And this evidence does not exist because the facts that would be important for this are never stated, like the number of Sovereign-class Reapers.
Also, because i just re-read the codex, here's anothr bone thrown into the fight:
The state of the Alliance fleets. The Alliance has been in three engagements with the Reapers:
At the Charon Relay, at Arcturus and at Earth. Most of those should have been rather short.
1st fleet: Half destroyed (conflicts Fall of Earth, where it says completely destroyed)
2nd fleet: Completely destroyed
3rd fleet: Unclear, saw heavy battle at Charon Relay before retreat
4th fleet: Completely destroyed
5th fleet: Unclear, saw "bloody and desperate battle" at Arcturus
6th fleet: Undamaged
We are not going to win a war with those odds.
Yeah, too bad we don't have the majority of the game dedicated to running around to find more allies or something.
Or God forbid, the writers actually come up with a way to have Shepard and Crew find ways to :
1) Drop Reaper Shields
2) Scramble Reaper internal processing
3) Reapers are AI controlled machines, why not find a way / code to override and take control of some and cause friendly fire / casualties
4) Get Rachi aboard and with heroic sacrifce, Rachni with Queen control wreck them from the inside
5) have Mega Thannix / Cains gattlin guns developped instead of oh, ONE BIG HUGE FRACKING BATTERY that no one building it realised what it is
Modifié par Archonsg, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .
#584
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 07:48
AresKeith
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so writing in something like the Synthesis ending is possible, but winning a war with a crap ton of War Assets and some Reaper Tech is impossible
#585
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 08:20
3DandBeyond
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AresKeith wrote...
so writing in something like the Synthesis ending is possible, but winning a war with a crap ton of War Assets and some Reaper Tech is impossible
Unlike Intellectual Space Magic, there's a limit to ordinary stuff can do. You know you can imagine whole ending scenes and stuff, but when it comes down to something you put in the game, the imagination can only go so far.
Alleyd and Archonsg are right on point.
Just asking this again...how did the missiles in London take down the reaper by the conduit? What was special about those missiles? EDI helped target them, sure, but beyond that.
And wouldn't the Hades Cannons that you shoot with a Cain have barriers and shields of some sort?
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:23 .
#586
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 08:27
kyban
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I have an idea of how it is possible, i encourage discussing it on my thread here: http://social.biowar.../index/12945183
In a nutshell, we find archives that helps us master the relay technology and that of the catalyst. We make minniature weapon-only versions of the catalyst, (cannons on ships) and use that to fight them. The weapon isn't perfect, but it does damage the reapers.
In a nutshell, we find archives that helps us master the relay technology and that of the catalyst. We make minniature weapon-only versions of the catalyst, (cannons on ships) and use that to fight them. The weapon isn't perfect, but it does damage the reapers.
#587
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 08:31
AresKeith
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3DandBeyond wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
so writing in something like the Synthesis ending is possible, but winning a war with a crap ton of War Assets and some Reaper Tech is impossible
Unlike Intellectual Space Magic, there's a limit to ordinary stuff can do. You know you can imagine whole ending scenes and stuff, but when it comes down to something you put in the game, the imagination can only go so far.
Alleyd and Archonsg are right on point.
Just asking this again...how did the missiles in London take down the reaper by the conduit? What was special about those missiles? EDI helped target them, sure, but beyond that.
And wouldn't the Hades Cannons that you shoot with a Cain have barriers and shields of some sort?
Bioware basically threw out everything that would make some sense
#588
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 08:40
Redbelle
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3DandBeyond wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
so writing in something like the Synthesis ending is possible, but winning a war with a crap ton of War Assets and some Reaper Tech is impossible
Unlike Intellectual Space Magic, there's a limit to ordinary stuff can do. You know you can imagine whole ending scenes and stuff, but when it comes down to something you put in the game, the imagination can only go so far.
Alleyd and Archonsg are right on point.
Just asking this again...how did the missiles in London take down the reaper by the conduit? What was special about those missiles? EDI helped target them, sure, but beyond that.
And wouldn't the Hades Cannons that you shoot with a Cain have barriers and shields of some sort?
I remember that bit so I thought I'd point out the missle's didn't take down the Reaper. Shepard calls in extra fire support.
True the Reaper is described as going down once the missles explode the Reapers eye beam, with a contained blast since it had closed it's armour, thus concentrating the blast to that location. But the fire support turns the Reaper into a forth of July firework show that seals the deal.
#589
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 08:51
Wyatt Shepard
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Well given that the series from ME1 makes the possibility of a conventional win over the Reapers nearly impossible (Sov took out most of a fleet on it's own, and only lost because Shep killed Saren.)
That said, ok I see the argument that they could have included a conventional victory option. BUT, and this is a big but, it would have to come with MAJOR consequences given the difficulty in killing a single capital ship Reaper like Sov. There could no "happy ending" out of it. Basically a conventional victory would mean the galaxy barely survives. The logic of the series would demand it. If the reapers were beaten conventionally, most planets would be destroyed, most major characters dead and the allies fleets in ruin. Basically, a victory that bombed the galaxy back to the stone age.
That said, ok I see the argument that they could have included a conventional victory option. BUT, and this is a big but, it would have to come with MAJOR consequences given the difficulty in killing a single capital ship Reaper like Sov. There could no "happy ending" out of it. Basically a conventional victory would mean the galaxy barely survives. The logic of the series would demand it. If the reapers were beaten conventionally, most planets would be destroyed, most major characters dead and the allies fleets in ruin. Basically, a victory that bombed the galaxy back to the stone age.
#590
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:09
grey_venger
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As a history nut, I have to get this off my mind first.
history rant \\on
Each and everyone is so ripped out of context to make them, in the best case, to simplified to be of much use.
For once, the reapers are so far above their opponents in military capabilities it isn't even funny (with only Vietnam comming somewhere close, although even on the ground, both sides had comparable weapons (i.e. Ak-47 vs M16)
All sucessfull guerilla campaigns are characterised by either a powerfull backer of the guerillas (like in vietnam), restraint from the superior side (the british in north ireland, also vietnam in a twisted way) and/or secure retreat areas (like north vietnam and china in the case of the vietnam war). Even then, ultimate victory is achieved either by the suprerior side giving up because it cannot shoulder the political backlash at home (soviet union in afghanistan, US in vietnam) or a conventional force driving out the suprerio enemy (like the red army in russia, South Vietnam was actually beaten by the north vietnamese army in 1975).
The reapers won't tire of their effort, they don't have an electorate to appease. Ups, there goes option one. Also, there is no ally in sight to kick the reapers out (except the crucible), so there goes option two.
If you wan't to have an apt example, you can take a look at the two uprisings in Warsaw (the first one in the jewish ghetto, the second by the polish home army in 1944). Here you have a desparate group fighting against an enemy that is not only completely superior, but completely merciless, without scouples and intent on the destruction of their enemies. Guess what, both insurrections had some limited initial successes, and then the germans gathered their conventional forces and crushed their opponents. They didn't care if they blew up whole city blocks or slaughtered thousands of innocents to defeat the polish and jewish fighters.
If your prey goes to the ground, make it so there is no ground to go to.
Motivation alone is useless, the british battalions clambering out of their trenchers at the somme in 1916 were motivated and courageous enough, it just wasn't much use against machineguns, barbed wire and shrapnell.
History rant \\off, story rant \\on
But on a more mature level, Bioware built the whole premise of the series around this galactic extinction event each 50'000 years. And if the reapers could have been defeated conventionally, don't you think another race in the thousands of cycles before would have managed it?
It's somehow stupid to take the fictional setting written by one party, and then try to argue that this fictional scenario is wrong and that there are fictional means in this fictional scenario that could be used to achieve a fictional state clearly stated impossible in this fictional state.
Face it, bioware choose the "unbeatable" option in this story, and as long they don't retcon the whole story, no conventional fictional victory is possible. This is like arguing that Boromir should have taken the One Ring to Gondor, as he could have taken precautions by taking advice by Galadriel and Gandalf to not fall under the power of the ring and instead using to to lead the united army of elves, dwarfes and humans directly into mordor to kick sauron once and for all.
history rant \\on
Actually, the interpretation of these events is so screwed to make a relation to the game canon irrelevant.alleyd wrote...
There are many examples in the human history of warfare where an overwhelming force (Superior technology, weapons training etc) has been successfully defeated by a much lesser enemy.
Examples
Vietnam in the late 20th Century saw the world's most technologically advanced Superpower humbled by a motivated "peasant" military force.
Afghanistan (Without mentioning the tragic present day conflict) in the 19th century the British Empire forces were the most powerful military force on Earth. Yet suffered their greatest defeat to date at the hands of a small ill equipped but motivated Afghan militia
Again in the late 20th Century the Soviet Forces where forced to surrender their plans of expansion into Afghanistan.
In my own country (Scotland) in the 14th Century an ill equipped and badly trained force of militia defeated a far larger, better equpped army (The English/French/Welsh Edwardian force was regarded at the time as being the greatest in Christendom.)
Then there is possibly the greatest Military empire of human history, The Mongols. A small force that humbled many of their far larger and more advanced enemys, The Chinese Empire and the Persians being only 2 examples.
All these examples have own thing in common for me. Motivation of the smaller force can make a real difference in war.
In addition there was an Achilles Heel of the Reapers fully exposed at the end of ME3 IMO that could lead to an unconventional victory. The Crucible/Citadel being the central control mechanism for the Reapers, able to alter them completely. Simply self destruct the Crucible while its attached must have some effect on the Reapers
Each and everyone is so ripped out of context to make them, in the best case, to simplified to be of much use.
For once, the reapers are so far above their opponents in military capabilities it isn't even funny (with only Vietnam comming somewhere close, although even on the ground, both sides had comparable weapons (i.e. Ak-47 vs M16)
All sucessfull guerilla campaigns are characterised by either a powerfull backer of the guerillas (like in vietnam), restraint from the superior side (the british in north ireland, also vietnam in a twisted way) and/or secure retreat areas (like north vietnam and china in the case of the vietnam war). Even then, ultimate victory is achieved either by the suprerior side giving up because it cannot shoulder the political backlash at home (soviet union in afghanistan, US in vietnam) or a conventional force driving out the suprerio enemy (like the red army in russia, South Vietnam was actually beaten by the north vietnamese army in 1975).
The reapers won't tire of their effort, they don't have an electorate to appease. Ups, there goes option one. Also, there is no ally in sight to kick the reapers out (except the crucible), so there goes option two.
If you wan't to have an apt example, you can take a look at the two uprisings in Warsaw (the first one in the jewish ghetto, the second by the polish home army in 1944). Here you have a desparate group fighting against an enemy that is not only completely superior, but completely merciless, without scouples and intent on the destruction of their enemies. Guess what, both insurrections had some limited initial successes, and then the germans gathered their conventional forces and crushed their opponents. They didn't care if they blew up whole city blocks or slaughtered thousands of innocents to defeat the polish and jewish fighters.
If your prey goes to the ground, make it so there is no ground to go to.
Motivation alone is useless, the british battalions clambering out of their trenchers at the somme in 1916 were motivated and courageous enough, it just wasn't much use against machineguns, barbed wire and shrapnell.
History rant \\off, story rant \\on
But on a more mature level, Bioware built the whole premise of the series around this galactic extinction event each 50'000 years. And if the reapers could have been defeated conventionally, don't you think another race in the thousands of cycles before would have managed it?
It's somehow stupid to take the fictional setting written by one party, and then try to argue that this fictional scenario is wrong and that there are fictional means in this fictional scenario that could be used to achieve a fictional state clearly stated impossible in this fictional state.
Face it, bioware choose the "unbeatable" option in this story, and as long they don't retcon the whole story, no conventional fictional victory is possible. This is like arguing that Boromir should have taken the One Ring to Gondor, as he could have taken precautions by taking advice by Galadriel and Gandalf to not fall under the power of the ring and instead using to to lead the united army of elves, dwarfes and humans directly into mordor to kick sauron once and for all.
Modifié par grey_venger, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:13 .
#591
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:38
3DandBeyond
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Redbelle wrote...
3DandBeyond wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
so writing in something like the Synthesis ending is possible, but winning a war with a crap ton of War Assets and some Reaper Tech is impossible
Unlike Intellectual Space Magic, there's a limit to ordinary stuff can do. You know you can imagine whole ending scenes and stuff, but when it comes down to something you put in the game, the imagination can only go so far.
Alleyd and Archonsg are right on point.
Just asking this again...how did the missiles in London take down the reaper by the conduit? What was special about those missiles? EDI helped target them, sure, but beyond that.
And wouldn't the Hades Cannons that you shoot with a Cain have barriers and shields of some sort?
I remember that bit so I thought I'd point out the missle's didn't take down the Reaper. Shepard calls in extra fire support.
True the Reaper is described as going down once the missles explode the Reapers eye beam, with a contained blast since it had closed it's armour, thus concentrating the blast to that location. But the fire support turns the Reaper into a forth of July firework show that seals the deal.
Ok, thanks. That is one part I don't remember too much of since I really don't care to do London-I've done it maybe 4 times. I remembered that reaper on Rannoch-Shepard created the target for the ships in space to hit, but didn't remember the one in London like that.
But, since it can be done why can't they keep doing it-sure it's not easy but I would venture that some other missiles are more powerful than what they used in London.
#592
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:48
RunAway ItzJack
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The fleets were being sloppy. Concentrate a couple salvos on one reaper for a few seconds and I'm pretty sure they don't stand a chance from every goddamn ship in the galaxy firing at 'em.
Also, I would think thanix weapons would be more prevalent 2 and a half years since their original deployment, there's gotta be some reaper weaponry firing back at em.
Also, I would think thanix weapons would be more prevalent 2 and a half years since their original deployment, there's gotta be some reaper weaponry firing back at em.
#593
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:49
ShepGrimr
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iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...
The Mad Hanar wrote...
I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
Well guys?
The Migrant fleet now has more dreadnought class weapon ships than anyone, which is against the rules.
All of their ships are armed for warfare with the latest and best technology.
The alliance fleet is barely weakened bytthe Sovereign/Geth attack, destiny ascension more than makes up for it.
Hammer was not been overrun, I had many N7 squads fighting there and they were doing good.
The Quarians were shooting the Rannoch reaper with light weapons as more powerful ones would have killed Shepard too.
They faced sovereign without Thanix cannons.
ahh thanix cannons i really wish they were in the spotlight more in this game. Only took a few shots to kill that collector ship.
#594
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:05
3DandBeyond
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@grey_venger,
From the perspective of the little guy fighting the bigger guy, that bigger guy almost always looks so superior as to be unbeatable. There are as Alleyd stated often Achille's heels that a foe has and that was the point being made. The one thing a superior foe often has that can be used and has been to success before is their underestimation of their foe. The reapers flaw that could be utilized against them is not that they underestimate the ability of people to fight back and win; they totally dis-count it. They view people as nothing so that is a weakness that could and even would be exploited.
Hackett is a terrible leader-he keeps having them go head to head with the reapers, almost waving their arms and saying, "here I am, come get me." Sure, it's not like there are places to hide on Earth but that's one thing. It's kind of like Hackett is trying to fight a conventional war with them-like the old traditional line up on a field across from one another and start shooting and last man standing decides who won.
No one ever asks the Rachni about the reapers. The Rachni were advanced by the Protheans to fight. The Rachni have ancestral memory so they would know about how the Protheans tried to fight the reapers, even probably more than Javik. Just one thing that might help them learn about any weak spot.
The reapers are big bad killing machines, but everything has a weakness-they are not perfect. The kid controls them-destroy the Citadel. But no one tries anything but shooting and running.
The British all but ruled the world before the American Revolution-huge navy, great military, best minds on the field of battle. With a lot of other help, the colonists beat them. They were called dishonorable, cowardly, treacherous. criminal, because they wouldn't fight only face to face on a field. They waylaid the British Military on roads from behind trees, raided armories, and they used snipers to kill British commanders. Vastly outmanned, with inferior supplies and so on, the colonists won. Because they by and large refused to fight a conventional fight.
Look at what the Russians did in WWII-something they had also done against Napoleon, they burned and destroyed everything the enemy could use to re-supply. Not something that would work against the reapers but it's not a traditional way to fight an enemy.
We already know the writers decided conventional methods won't work, but actually they have. The reaper on Rannoch was taken down-sure by being targeted and then using many ships to fire on it. But then I did just look up a video on the reaper by the conduit in London-the missile barrage that Shepard used hit it and then one of Shepard's teammates says, "It's going down." The reaper was falling, damaged badly. Shepard then says to hit it with everything-that's to finish it off. Just what "everything" is who knows? The point is, conventional weapons took it down-it wasn't easy, but it showed that it could be done.
From the perspective of the little guy fighting the bigger guy, that bigger guy almost always looks so superior as to be unbeatable. There are as Alleyd stated often Achille's heels that a foe has and that was the point being made. The one thing a superior foe often has that can be used and has been to success before is their underestimation of their foe. The reapers flaw that could be utilized against them is not that they underestimate the ability of people to fight back and win; they totally dis-count it. They view people as nothing so that is a weakness that could and even would be exploited.
Hackett is a terrible leader-he keeps having them go head to head with the reapers, almost waving their arms and saying, "here I am, come get me." Sure, it's not like there are places to hide on Earth but that's one thing. It's kind of like Hackett is trying to fight a conventional war with them-like the old traditional line up on a field across from one another and start shooting and last man standing decides who won.
No one ever asks the Rachni about the reapers. The Rachni were advanced by the Protheans to fight. The Rachni have ancestral memory so they would know about how the Protheans tried to fight the reapers, even probably more than Javik. Just one thing that might help them learn about any weak spot.
The reapers are big bad killing machines, but everything has a weakness-they are not perfect. The kid controls them-destroy the Citadel. But no one tries anything but shooting and running.
The British all but ruled the world before the American Revolution-huge navy, great military, best minds on the field of battle. With a lot of other help, the colonists beat them. They were called dishonorable, cowardly, treacherous. criminal, because they wouldn't fight only face to face on a field. They waylaid the British Military on roads from behind trees, raided armories, and they used snipers to kill British commanders. Vastly outmanned, with inferior supplies and so on, the colonists won. Because they by and large refused to fight a conventional fight.
Look at what the Russians did in WWII-something they had also done against Napoleon, they burned and destroyed everything the enemy could use to re-supply. Not something that would work against the reapers but it's not a traditional way to fight an enemy.
We already know the writers decided conventional methods won't work, but actually they have. The reaper on Rannoch was taken down-sure by being targeted and then using many ships to fire on it. But then I did just look up a video on the reaper by the conduit in London-the missile barrage that Shepard used hit it and then one of Shepard's teammates says, "It's going down." The reaper was falling, damaged badly. Shepard then says to hit it with everything-that's to finish it off. Just what "everything" is who knows? The point is, conventional weapons took it down-it wasn't easy, but it showed that it could be done.
#595
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:11
FatalX7.0
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People insist that it's possible because the very idea of such a thing really gets their blood pumpin'.
Never giving up and persevering. Two concepts that are so very awesome.
It's as simple as that.
Never giving up and persevering. Two concepts that are so very awesome.
It's as simple as that.
#596
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:17
jeffyg93
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Made this out of boredom.
http://i.imgur.com/P6tNY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/P6tNY.jpg
Modifié par jeffyg93, 11 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .
#597
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:29
wizardryforever
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Awesome. But you know people are going to insist that we remove in-universe info because they want to attack the writers. When they don't have a leg to stand on without meta-game information, you know that they are desperate.jeffyg93 wrote...
Made this out of boredom.
http://i.imgur.com/P6tNY.jpg
#598
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:53
Ticonderoga117
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wizardryforever wrote...
Awesome. But you know people are going to insist that we remove in-universe info because they want to attack the writers. When they don't have a leg to stand on without meta-game information, you know that they are desperate.jeffyg93 wrote...
Made this out of boredom.
http://i.imgur.com/P6tNY.jpg
Well, when the leaders act like 5 years olds with thier planning, yeah, the information given in game seems kinda stupid.
Just gonna pick this apart here:
Numbers: Assumptions. No hard data given for either side. Reapers have tons of ground troops, but they are mowed down like wheat. So thus, neutral.
Experiance: Sure, the Reapers have been doing this for a long time, but that leads to stagnation, which is bad. Organics, however, keep learning from the constant fights we get in and new tactics and be quickly devised.
In the long run, about even.
I'll give you technology, however, under war-time conditions, developement of new tech and improvements of current tech explode. Reapers have no reason to, thus, stagnant. Tech gap won't last long.
Leadership: Both mentally handicapped. Either because "We never took the Citadel" or "I lost a fleet for no reason" or "Let's charge a Reaper without any plan". So, you pick who is less retarded and come back to me on this one.
Other things:
-Reapers didn't have the same surprise factor like past cycles.
-Indoctrination is a problem, but can be mitigated by rotating troops.
-The Krogan have no ships, of course they can't help the Turians take back Palaven.
-EMS is what is says on the tin, Effective Military Strength. Besides, if conventional victory was not possible, the Crucibles wouldn't have a snowball's chance of getting near the Citadel.
-Reaper numbers at the final battle are unknown.
-It's a Reaper with an AA gun on top. Sidenote: It's a horrible AA gun, seems to have little traversing capability.
-Turians pasted the Reapers during the opening hours of the Battle for Palaven, so we can kill a bunch of them at a time.
Extras:
-We grab a device that can show EVERY REAPER IN THE GALAXY. Do you know how handy this would be in a universe where there is more than a few comptent people?
Conclusion:
Conventional victory is possible if not railroaded by contrivence and inconsistent writing.
If it wasn't possible, the Cruicible would've been turned to scrap before it ever REACHED the Citadel.
#599
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:28
The Spamming Troll
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MrStoob wrote...
Cains or Fleets, Cains or Fleets.
but bioware would write it where if you want to create enough mini nukes, youd have to dissassemble the geth, the normandy, reprogram EDI to do whatever the hell sucks, murder your LI..........
whatever
#600
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:36
Ridwan
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"The catalyst confirms!" Yeah, cause there's no way he would lie, right?
"Defeating the Reapers is impossible!" Sounds like defeatist talk to me. You wanna die like a free man, or live your life according to how the Reapers dictate it.
"Defeating the Reapers is impossible!" Sounds like defeatist talk to me. You wanna die like a free man, or live your life according to how the Reapers dictate it.
