676 réponses à ce sujet

[Seracen]

To OP, the problem is that there are too many thematic changes. At certain scenes, we are shown how triumph is possible despite all odds. Think about how a single Cain took down the Hades Cannon, or how two missiles and a barrage of rockets took down the pre-beam-run Reaper.

Barring that, think of how often we pull victory from the impossible in this series. Someone theorized that there was a clashing of ideas in the writers' room.

Whether true or not, I still think that conventional victory would have been extremely difficult, impossible even, without a MINOR macguffin...like a signal scrambler, which Cerberus developed on it's way to a control signal on Horizon, ironically enough (also a device I used in my fanfic).

[3DandBeyond]

Seracen wrote...

To OP, the problem is that there are too many thematic changes. At certain scenes, we are shown how triumph is possible despite all odds. Think about how a single Cain took down the Hades Cannon, or how two missiles and a barrage of rockets took down the pre-beam-run Reaper.

Barring that, think of how often we pull victory from the impossible in this series. Someone theorized that there was a clashing of ideas in the writers' room.

Whether true or not, I still think that conventional victory would have been extremely difficult, impossible even, without a MINOR macguffin...like a signal scrambler, which Cerberus developed on it's way to a control signal on Horizon, ironically enough (also a device I used in my fanfic).

Well, actually the 2 missiles took down the reaper by the conduit-it was going down and Shepard told I think EDI to then hit it with everything.

I don't know that you need too much of a Macguffin since there were many things that might have done whaty you say-in fact there were scientists that knew that indoctrination was some sort of electronic "pulse".  The idea isn't using conventional weapons conventionally, but to get creative.  It's not done because it was harder to write.

[Avenuewriter]

 Nobody likes a deus ex machina. It's an easy way out, and for many people who like Mass Effect we didn't want the battle with the reapers to be easy. After coming off of Mass Effect 2, where you were facing a literal suicide mission, the most satisfying feeling came when you put all your effort into building your team and preparing for the mission and then succeed despite the odds. That was what we expected ME3 to be like, only on a galactic scale. No crucible, no catalyst, just the galaxy united against the reapers. 

I refer to the song "Reignite" by Malukah who put it beautifully: "United we can break a fate once set in stone."

[The Spamming Troll]

schulz100 wrote...

Finally, someone who agrees that conventional warfare won't work.

Let me give you naysayers the numbers:

It took about two fleets each from three different races to kill Sovriegn. One single big Reaper. And the only reason they managed to kill him/it at all is because Sovriegn got distracted trying to kill Shepard with Saren's robo-skeleton ad dropped his shields like a dope. In a pure, straight-up space battle, no Reaper will be that stupid.

It took five precision-strike salvos from the entire Quarian fleet to kill a single small-sized Reaper. Again, FIVE salvos from an ENTIRE FLEET. Or, if we're counting Thanix missiles, about ten once two have been shoot down it's firing chamber (so basically a Death Star exhaust port shot, but with big-ass missiles). Meanwhile, most Reapers can blow up a dreadnought in about one or two shots total. The big ones only need one shot to take a dreadnought out.

These are things that simply cannot be beaten in a straight-up fight.
Sure, maybe you could fight fleet-to-ship, but end result would most likely be all the fleets destroyed, and still a couple Reapers left active. They'd probably be a little busted up, but they'd still be active, and now the races they want to kill have no warships.
The Reapers still win.

well, why couldnt bioware just add some space magic to the conventional means to winnning victory? i mean what are the rules against using and not using space magic?

like shepard uses javik to finds guns made by the inusannon that can knock out reapers indefinately by dismantiling their synthetic code.

oh man, i didnt even have to use space magic. sorry, its not bioware enough. we need more space magic!

[3DandBeyond]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

schulz100 wrote...

Finally, someone who agrees that conventional warfare won't work.

Let me give you naysayers the numbers:

It took about two fleets each from three different races to kill Sovriegn. One single big Reaper. And the only reason they managed to kill him/it at all is because Sovriegn got distracted trying to kill Shepard with Saren's robo-skeleton ad dropped his shields like a dope. In a pure, straight-up space battle, no Reaper will be that stupid.

It took five precision-strike salvos from the entire Quarian fleet to kill a single small-sized Reaper. Again, FIVE salvos from an ENTIRE FLEET. Or, if we're counting Thanix missiles, about ten once two have been shoot down it's firing chamber (so basically a Death Star exhaust port shot, but with big-ass missiles). Meanwhile, most Reapers can blow up a dreadnought in about one or two shots total. The big ones only need one shot to take a dreadnought out.

These are things that simply cannot be beaten in a straight-up fight.
Sure, maybe you could fight fleet-to-ship, but end result would most likely be all the fleets destroyed, and still a couple Reapers left active. They'd probably be a little busted up, but they'd still be active, and now the races they want to kill have no warships.
The Reapers still win.

well, why couldnt bioware just add some space magic to the conventional means to winnning victory? i mean what are the rules against using and not using space magic?

like shepard uses javik to finds guns made by the inusannon that can knock out reapers indefinately by dismantiling their synthetic code.

oh man, i didnt even have to use space magic. sorry, its not bioware enough. we need more space magic!

In Biowareland, space magic NOW can only be used in order to fill large parts of story they don't want to write or flesh out.  This also goes hand in hand with the populace of the galaxy suddenly putting their brains aside in order to do something rational people wouldn't do as an only choice; spend time, money, effort, and all resources on an unknown of unknown origin.  This must then be represented as art and smart.  However, the game had some truly "artistic" moments within it.  The space magic crucible MacGuffin and his godfather glowstick apparently make far more sense to people than actually seeing less huge displays of artistic space magic.  I don't mind some magic, but I'd rather have seen more "real" well written scenes involving different non-traditional uses of conventional means.   It's ok to use it to further the main plot in places, but to use it as the whole end of a trilogy and as the holy grail that is supposed to get you to the big space magic ending, it's just a substitute for writing an actual story.

[Wyatt Shepard]

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

[quote]jeffyg93 wrote...


The big problem with that and yes it is a nice summation of what seems to be the case.  The big problem is that had the galaxy not spent time and resources building something that is totally unknown-unknown in origin, unknown as to how it works, unknown as to what it will do, they may well have been able to utilize the resources elsewhere.  They knew a lot about what indoctrination was and how it worked, but those scientists that had been studying it were sent away to work on the crucible.  Anyone that knew anything went to work on a big fat unknown, but no one, absolutely no one used any form of subterfuge or non-traditional things to actually try other things.  Salarian STG-picking their noses in a corner as far as yes, the writers were concerned.

[/quote]

This. To me its only true fatal flaw in the game's plot. Nitpick other stuff if one will, but this is the one that bugged me the most.

The Crucible is entirely unknown, even when it was deployed. The Alliance has NO WAY to know what it will do, how it will do it, or what the consquences would be. Is it a bomb? Is it some kind of big ass off switch that shuts the reapers down? Does it allow the alliance to use the relays against the Reapers in some fashion? Who knew?

I think any talk about a "conventional" victory is pretty pointless given the game history. Yes yes yes, the smaller destroyer reapers get killed, but the captial ship verisions are just so hard to kill and they out number the combined allied space forces. The game does a good job, I thought, of setting up the all but impossible possiblity of a conventional victory (I still they could maybe do it, but the cost would have to be beyond high. Basically the galaxy would be in ruins. Think the Battle of Stalingrad on a cosmic level.) But, the Alliance jumps on the Crucible too quickly and the sense of desperation that would cause that to happen could have been stronger.

[3DandBeyond]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


The big problem with that and yes it is a nice summation of what seems to be the case.  The big problem is that had the galaxy not spent time and resources building something that is totally unknown-unknown in origin, unknown as to how it works, unknown as to what it will do, they may well have been able to utilize the resources elsewhere.  They knew a lot about what indoctrination was and how it worked, but those scientists that had been studying it were sent away to work on the crucible.  Anyone that knew anything went to work on a big fat unknown, but no one, absolutely no one used any form of subterfuge or non-traditional things to actually try other things.  Salarian STG-picking their noses in a corner as far as yes, the writers were concerned.

This. To me its only true fatal flaw in the game's plot. Nitpick other stuff if one will, but this is the one that bugged me the most.

The Crucible is entirely unknown, even when it was deployed. The Alliance has NO WAY to know what it will do, how it will do it, or what the consquences would be. Is it a bomb? Is it some kind of big ass off switch that shuts the reapers down? Does it allow the alliance to use the relays against the Reapers in some fashion? Who knew?

I think any talk about a "conventional" victory is pretty pointless given the game history. Yes yes yes, the smaller destroyer reapers get killed, but the captial ship verisions are just so hard to kill and they out number the combined allied space forces. The game does a good job, I thought, of setting up the all but impossible possiblity of a conventional victory (I still they could maybe do it, but the cost would have to be beyond high. Basically the galaxy would be in ruins. Think the Battle of Stalingrad on a cosmic level.) But, the Alliance jumps on the Crucible too quickly and the sense of desperation that would cause that to happen could have been stronger.

The problem is most people think of conventional as pulling out a gun or a missile and shooting it and seeing some big bang and all.  But, this is a future where you have so many people doing some very unconventional things already.  Sure mounting any attack would be costly, but you don't wage a war of attrition that can't be won.  Think of the "300" and how they turned the idea of traditional fighting on its head.  You sometimes take what your foe thinks of as a strength and use it against them.  They might have learned a lot from the Rachni, but no one even asked them a question.  Or they might have asked Javik what they tried and found out what didn't work or what did have even a slight effect.  For a galaxy that is unified, no one every talks to one another to coordinate anything other than to create and protect the Crucible that is never threatened.

One thing that is also pointed to is that since the kid is on the citadel and controls the reapers and the crucible still ends up being a big question mark given that it is revealed to be a big battery (no one could see that from what they were making) and the devices that change it are on the citadel, other options present themselves then.  Destroy the citadel-destroy the crucible when attached to the citadel.  Get EDI and the geth working at jamming the kid's signal to the reapers-unless he has psychic powers he must be sending out some type of signal to control them.  Unconventional means using conventional technology.  Re-purpose the keepers.  Heck, the Protheans shut off their signal to the reapers-turn it on and send out some destructive code.

There's no sense that anyone tries anything and then gives up realizing that nothing will work before they hop on the Crucible wagon.  That sense of desperation doesn't exist at all.  And in one of the most inexplicable things in the game, just as Liara discovers the plans, she is somehow totally seperated from them and Cerberus knows about them and all but gets them first. 

I know of course none of this matters and nothing else was used because they'd actually have needed to write that and that was way more work.  I'm sorry if that sounds scathing but consider this.  The most used plot devices in stories submitted to publishers in especially Scifi stories (but others as well) that are rejected by publishers as lazy writing are the MacGuffin and Deus ex.  That's not me saying that's lazy writing-that's book publishers.  ME3 had way too much lazy writing in it and that's why there was never any angst over the inability to fight against the reapers and why the Crucible was embraced by everyone from the very beginning.  It's also why the kid popped up as the Deus ex within a Deus ex. 

[Fliprot]

What I dont understand is why people keep insisting that they cant be killed conventionally ,even after seeing them killed conventionally a few times during the game.

This theory only works if you call every conventional thing that kills a reaper "unconventional"

What is conventional? a 38 special? a Hunting knife?

[spiriticon]

Fliprot wrote...

What I dont understand is why people keep insisting that they cant be killed conventionally ,even after seeing them killed conventionally a few times during the game.

This theory only works if you call every conventional thing that kills a reaper "unconventional"

What is conventional? a 38 special? a Hunting knife?

You can kill a few conventionally. I don't think anyone is doubting that.

It's killing ALL of them conventionally that is a big plothole, considering they are far far far stronger and vastly outnumber us.

We will run out of soldiers before they run out of Reapers, and not to mention they have complete control of the Mass relays.

[spiriticon]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

"Pointlessness"

Shepard. Killed 5. Reapers. More or less by himself. And you are going to tell me that the United Galaxy can't handle a few?

There's only one Shepard, please. That's what makes his story special.

Richard. L Jenkins couldn't take down 5 on his own.

Modifié par spiriticon, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[3DandBeyond]

spiriticon wrote...

Fliprot wrote...

What I dont understand is why people keep insisting that they cant be killed conventionally ,even after seeing them killed conventionally a few times during the game.

This theory only works if you call every conventional thing that kills a reaper "unconventional"

What is conventional? a 38 special? a Hunting knife?

You can kill a few conventionally. I don't think anyone is doubting that.

It's killing ALL of them conventionally that is a big plothole, considering they are far far far stronger and vastly outnumber us.

We will run out of soldiers before they run out of Reapers, and not to mention they have complete control of the Mass relays.

Only if you are consistently trying to fight a war of attrition.  You don't.  You don't even try.  Why not blind them?  Considering that many people all over the web and on the BSN have come up with ways that might work against individual reapers or even groups of them what is unconscionable is that the writers just decided to never show that any real resistance was possible or of limited use.  Again, arm geth with cains-send them out airlocks and into reapers, to maybe board them or even see if it's possible.  Conventional weapon, unconventional means.  And the death of any one reaper might well weaken the whole.  Who knows, no one tries.  They just run at them headlong fighting against them conventionally in a war of attrition.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[spiriticon]

LaughingDragon wrote...

Question to those people that think conventional victory is stupid/impossible, and are cool with the crucible...

So...you guys think it's acceptable that 10 minutes before the reapers conquer the sol system that you recover a "kill all reaper" button to save the entire galaxy?

Please explain this to me, how that is acceptable? I am but a poor, simple minded fellow

Ugh...need to explain this again.

Shepard has been building this weapon for the whole game with the intention of using it. The Crucible isn't something that popped up in the last 10 minutes. You're presented with the plot device (good or not) from the word 'go'.

Just because the catalyst comes out and throws gobbledygook at you doesn't mean you should get totally confused and not fulfill your mission to build AND USE the Crucible.

[3DandBeyond]

spiriticon wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

Question to those people that think conventional victory is stupid/impossible, and are cool with the crucible...

So...you guys think it's acceptable that 10 minutes before the reapers conquer the sol system that you recover a "kill all reaper" button to save the entire galaxy?

Please explain this to me, how that is acceptable? I am but a poor, simple minded fellow

Ugh...need to explain this again.

Shepard has been building this weapon for the whole game with the intention of using it. The Crucible isn't something that popped up in the last 10 minutes. You're presented with the plot device (good or not) from the word 'go'.

Just because the catalyst comes out and throws gobbledygook at you doesn't mean you should get totally confused and not fulfill your mission to build AND USE the Crucible.

That 10 minutes before the end refers to the consoles of choices on the citadel, not the crucible.  Specifically the destroy option.


Which again bears out the nature of the crucible since it was changed in the EC so it wouldn't be total space magic that required reapers to build.  It became a battery and the choices are built into the citadel.  The citadel is part of the kid, not vice versa, so the choices are built into the kid.  He knows all that they supposedly do.  He has also proved himself to be duplicitous and to be contradictory and nonsensical.  So, reliance on these as actual choices is a fool's errand.  And reject might seem then the right non-choice to make if it weren't just so stupid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:14 .

[spiriticon]

3DandBeyond wrote..

Only if you are consistently trying to fight a war of attrition.  You don't.  You don't even try.  Why not blind them?  Considering that many people all over the web and on the BSN have come up with ways that might work against individual reapers or even groups of them what is unconscionable is that the writers just decided to never show that any real resistance was possible or of limited use.  Again, arm geth with cains-send them out airlocks and into reapers, to maybe board them or even see if it's possible.  Conventional weapon, unconventional means.  And the death of any one reaper might well weaken the whole.  Who knows, no one tries.  They just run at them headlong fighting against them conventionally in a war of attrition.

Um. Conventional Warfare is a war of attrition. They are all over Dark Space. How do you 'blind' an enemy that could be anywhere in the universe? They are more likely to blind you (and have actually done so already because we knew squat when they were already at the Lunar Base).

And they have complete control of the relays, which is the most technologically advanced piece of kit in the galaxy at the time.

The Reapers have the tactical, numerical and military advantage. The only thing we got is hope.

[spiriticon]

3DandBeyond wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

Question to those people that think conventional victory is stupid/impossible, and are cool with the crucible...

So...you guys think it's acceptable that 10 minutes before the reapers conquer the sol system that you recover a "kill all reaper" button to save the entire galaxy?

Please explain this to me, how that is acceptable? I am but a poor, simple minded fellow

Ugh...need to explain this again.

Shepard has been building this weapon for the whole game with the intention of using it. The Crucible isn't something that popped up in the last 10 minutes. You're presented with the plot device (good or not) from the word 'go'.

Just because the catalyst comes out and throws gobbledygook at you doesn't mean you should get totally confused and not fulfill your mission to build AND USE the Crucible.

That 10 minutes before the end refers to the consoles of choices on the citadel, not the crucible.  Specifically the destroy option.

The choices activate the Crucible. It was necessary. Ignoring the catalyst's 10 minutes, the reason you're still there at the end is to activate the Crucible. I don't see a real problem.

[3DandBeyond]

spiriticon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote..

Only if you are consistently trying to fight a war of attrition.  You don't.  You don't even try.  Why not blind them?  Considering that many people all over the web and on the BSN have come up with ways that might work against individual reapers or even groups of them what is unconscionable is that the writers just decided to never show that any real resistance was possible or of limited use.  Again, arm geth with cains-send them out airlocks and into reapers, to maybe board them or even see if it's possible.  Conventional weapon, unconventional means.  And the death of any one reaper might well weaken the whole.  Who knows, no one tries.  They just run at them headlong fighting against them conventionally in a war of attrition.

Um. Conventional Warfare is a war of attrition. They are all over Dark Space. How do you 'blind' an enemy that could be anywhere in the universe? They are more likely to blind you (and have actually done so already because we knew squat when they were already at the Lunar Base).

And they have complete control of the relays, which is the most technologically advanced piece of kit in the galaxy at the time.

The Reapers have the tactical, numerical and military advantage. The only thing we got is hope.

Do you not know how many times just such things have been overcome by vastly inferior forces?  Sure they weren't fighting reapers.  But then there were many cases where you could see almost stone age people fighting the equivalent and winning.

No, a war of attrition is continually just throwing bodies at the enemy and seeing who is left standing.  It's merely playing a numbers game with no strategy.  Sabotage and the like are not about attrition or more rightly mutual attrition.  You run and hide and keep moving away when possible.  You don't send out 5 guys with guns to take down a reaper.  You use subterfuge and decoys and try things you've never tried.  Can they swim?  The Normandy can coordinate with other ground troops and try to keep taking out even individual reapers-maybe not great advancement but it could make room for people to regroup.  Make them fall over-trip them. 

You blind them by using the things you do know and yes people do know a lot about them.  Scientists do know about their indoctrination signal.  Scientists also have stealth tech used by the Normandy.  Using resources for these things might make headway but it's never attempted even on a limited basis.  They can jam signals and it's possible there's could be as well, but all effort is spent in the creation and roll out of a big unknown.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[spiriticon]

3DandBeyond wrote...

No, a war of attrition is continually just throwing bodies at the enemy and seeing who is left standing.  It's merely playing a numbers game with no strategy.  Sabotage and the like are not about attrition or more rightly mutual attrition.  You run and hide and keep moving away when possible.  You use subterfuge and decoys and try things you've never tried.  Can they swim?  The Normandy can coordinate with other ground troops and try to keep taking out even individual reapers-maybe not great advancement but it could make room for people to regroup.

You blind them by using the things you do know and yes people do know a lot about them.  Scientists do know about their indoctrination signal.  Scientists also have stealth tech used by the Normandy.  Using resources for these things might make headway but it's never attempted even on a limited basis.  They can jam signals and it's possible there's could be as well, but all effort is spent in the creation and roll out of a big unknown.

Hide WHERE? Exactly? In reaper controlled dark space??? There is no more space where you can hide!!!!

The only ship capable of outmaneuvring the Reapers is maybe the Normandy, and one ship can't beat the whole Reaper fleet.

[3DandBeyond]

spiriticon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

No, a war of attrition is continually just throwing bodies at the enemy and seeing who is left standing.  It's merely playing a numbers game with no strategy.  Sabotage and the like are not about attrition or more rightly mutual attrition.  You run and hide and keep moving away when possible.  You use subterfuge and decoys and try things you've never tried.  Can they swim?  The Normandy can coordinate with other ground troops and try to keep taking out even individual reapers-maybe not great advancement but it could make room for people to regroup.

You blind them by using the things you do know and yes people do know a lot about them.  Scientists do know about their indoctrination signal.  Scientists also have stealth tech used by the Normandy.  Using resources for these things might make headway but it's never attempted even on a limited basis.  They can jam signals and it's possible there's could be as well, but all effort is spent in the creation and roll out of a big unknown.

Hide WHERE? Exactly? In reaper controlled dark space??? There is no more space where you can hide!!!!

The only ship capable of outmaneuvring the Reapers is maybe the Normandy, and one ship can't beat the whole Reaper fleet.

I know the Normandy can't of course.  Never said it could.  As it is in the game, people keep running right to where the reapers are and try to shoot them with water pistols.  Those big reapers cannot get down into subway tunnels (I seem to remember there are those in London), and cannot be everywhere at once.  And they aren't even very fast on land.  Hiding in some places is an option in order to formulate plans, not just sending people out to get vaporized.  To keep asserting that what is impossible would not be attempted while Hackett and Anderson keep just throwing bodies head on into reapers is ignoring what would be attempted but is never shown.  Instead the most brilliant military minds can do nothing more than keep shooting at reapers.  No, that doesn't work at all.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[spiriticon]

3DandBeyond wrote...



I know the Normandy can't of course.  Never said it could.  As it is in the game, people keep running right to where the reapers are and try to shoot them with water pistols.  Those big reapers cannot get down into subway tunnels (I seem to remember there are those in London), and cannot be everywhere at once.  And they aren't even very fast on land.  Hiding in some places is an option in order to formulate plans, not just sending people out to get vaporized.

Hiding yourself in Subway tunnels is about the worst idea there is. Apart from the logistical problem of fitting your warships into subway tunnels, you've just trapped yourself to death.

If they don't shoot you you'll starve to death after 20 years.

[3DandBeyond]

spiriticon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...



I know the Normandy can't of course.  Never said it could.  As it is in the game, people keep running right to where the reapers are and try to shoot them with water pistols.  Those big reapers cannot get down into subway tunnels (I seem to remember there are those in London), and cannot be everywhere at once.  And they aren't even very fast on land.  Hiding in some places is an option in order to formulate plans, not just sending people out to get vaporized.

Hiding yourself in Subway tunnels is about the worst idea there is. Apart from the logistical problem of fitting your warships into subway tunnels, you've just trapped yourself to death.

If they don't shoot you you'll starve to death after 20 years.

What warships?  Ok now you are purposely injecting things into this to be difficult.  Really yeah you'd want to take a dreadnought into the tunnel.  And that is for resistance forces on Earth, not to stay there but you can move around underground and get to other areas-not all this running around up top and setting up FOBs where you are easily spotted.  That is one idea of avoiding them until plans are fleshed out, plans that make more sense than just throwing people at reapers.

I don't think you seriously want to discuss this because your mind is closed on it.  You believe that people would normally give up against what appear to be insurmountable odds and that they would not find different ways of fighting and that they would automatically go all stupid and decide to build an unknown object from incomplete plans of unknown origin.  That this is actually suggested as making sense is beyond all logical comprehension.

There once was a small island that was bombed almost to extinction by a vastly superior power and all they had left pretty much was hope and faith and their belief in themselves.  They were all but destroyed and they held on in spite of all that.  They did so, because they had little else.  Across the water others eventually found their land overrun by this same vastly superior force and since they were often unarmed and outmanned they did everything to appear compliant and to work with the occupying superior force.  They did however work through every channel possible to find ways to make the victory of their foe costly even if their own victory would ultimately be denied.  They did so because an interloper had entered their home and they could see no other option than to fight to remove this blight from their land.  They knew their chances were not good, that they probably would not win and would ultimately die, but that was the hand they were dealt and they continually chose to be a thorn in the side of their foe. 

Along the way others fought as well and even risked the extermination of their whole country as they drew the foe in and starved the foe out.

The foe was not beaten in one decisive battle but through the preponderance of a lot of little actions and resistance along the way, it was weakened and every gain that was gotten was hard won by that overwhelming foe and certainly by the little guy that fought back.  One thing is clear that island nation bought valuable time and stayed alive long enough for help to finally arrive.  No, the little guy didn't do it all, but the little guy did enough and more.

One little tale within all of this that is often forgotten is the meaning of the little guy that won't give up.  There came a time when the foe had all but beaten the one island country and its allies and then had all but destroyed its military might and driven them to the shore and there were few traditional vessels that could get to the shore to help the military to retreat back across the water to that island.  In droves, little guys came out with their own little boats of all designs and means and though many died on this trip being bombed out of the water or just sinking, the military men they fought to save were mostly saved.

Little guys can do the impossible.  And the minute you buy into the idea that something is impossible you have already lost, so yes, you must give up and find a MacGuffin.  And writers will continue with a lazy story device and lack the imagination to pursue truly heroic escapades-even those that fail.

Personally, I would rather believe the spirit of Dunkirk still exists.

[LaughingDragon]

I think Javik had the best idea, hide in the ground in stasis, wake up in the next cycle and start preparing for war...so when the reapers return we are like "not this time you lobstered ****es!"

[Wyatt Shepard]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


The big problem with that and yes it is a nice summation of what seems to be the case.  The big problem is that had the galaxy not spent time and resources building something that is totally unknown-unknown in origin, unknown as to how it works, unknown as to what it will do, they may well have been able to utilize the resources elsewhere.  They knew a lot about what indoctrination was and how it worked, but those scientists that had been studying it were sent away to work on the crucible.  Anyone that knew anything went to work on a big fat unknown, but no one, absolutely no one used any form of subterfuge or non-traditional things to actually try other things.  Salarian STG-picking their noses in a corner as far as yes, the writers were concerned.

This. To me its only true fatal flaw in the game's plot. Nitpick other stuff if one will, but this is the one that bugged me the most.

The Crucible is entirely unknown, even when it was deployed. The Alliance has NO WAY to know what it will do, how it will do it, or what the consquences would be. Is it a bomb? Is it some kind of big ass off switch that shuts the reapers down? Does it allow the alliance to use the relays against the Reapers in some fashion? Who knew?

I think any talk about a "conventional" victory is pretty pointless given the game history. Yes yes yes, the smaller destroyer reapers get killed, but the captial ship verisions are just so hard to kill and they out number the combined allied space forces. The game does a good job, I thought, of setting up the all but impossible possiblity of a conventional victory (I still they could maybe do it, but the cost would have to be beyond high. Basically the galaxy would be in ruins. Think the Battle of Stalingrad on a cosmic level.) But, the Alliance jumps on the Crucible too quickly and the sense of desperation that would cause that to happen could have been stronger.

The problem is most people think of conventional as pulling out a gun or a missile and shooting it and seeing some big bang and all.  But, this is a future where you have so many people doing some very unconventional things already.  Sure mounting any attack would be costly, but you don't wage a war of attrition that can't be won.  Think of the "300" and how they turned the idea of traditional fighting on its head.  You sometimes take what your foe thinks of as a strength and use it against them.  They might have learned a lot from the Rachni, but no one even asked them a question.  Or they might have asked Javik what they tried and found out what didn't work or what did have even a slight effect.  For a galaxy that is unified, no one every talks to one another to coordinate anything other than to create and protect the Crucible that is never threatened.

One thing that is also pointed to is that since the kid is on the citadel and controls the reapers and the crucible still ends up being a big question mark given that it is revealed to be a big battery (no one could see that from what they were making) and the devices that change it are on the citadel, other options present themselves then.  Destroy the citadel-destroy the crucible when attached to the citadel.  Get EDI and the geth working at jamming the kid's signal to the reapers-unless he has psychic powers he must be sending out some type of signal to control them.  Unconventional means using conventional technology.  Re-purpose the keepers.  Heck, the Protheans shut off their signal to the reapers-turn it on and send out some destructive code.

There's no sense that anyone tries anything and then gives up realizing that nothing will work before they hop on the Crucible wagon.  That sense of desperation doesn't exist at all.  And in one of the most inexplicable things in the game, just as Liara discovers the plans, she is somehow totally seperated from them and Cerberus knows about them and all but gets them first. 

I know of course none of this matters and nothing else was used because they'd actually have needed to write that and that was way more work.  I'm sorry if that sounds scathing but consider this.  The most used plot devices in stories submitted to publishers in especially Scifi stories (but others as well) that are rejected by publishers as lazy writing are the MacGuffin and Deus ex.  That's not me saying that's lazy writing-that's book publishers.  ME3 had way too much lazy writing in it and that's why there was never any angst over the inability to fight against the reapers and why the Crucible was embraced by everyone from the very beginning.  It's also why the kid popped up as the Deus ex within a Deus ex. 

I agree with you that too many key, and obvious questions were not asked. That said there are still some issues with your idea.

Take 300 for example. yes, an excellent example of a small force holding out against a bigger one. Not all that great an example for ME for two reasons. First, the Greeks are wiped out to the last man after three days, and not long afterwards Athens is burned to the ground before the allies city states can kick the Persians out. Also, the reason the fight lasted three days instead of three minutes is because the Greeks used the landscape against the invaders. There is no real "landscape" of that sort in the empty space around earth. Maybe they could have built a battle in the asteriod belt or something, really, the battle at the Hot Gates is not the best example.

Other issues like the Rachni. They would only be a limited use. The Rachni queen appears to have some level of "Race memory" about the Rachni wars, but tells us in ME1 that she doesn't know very much at all about the war itself. She has echoes of it, enough to know the Rachni were indoctrinated (presumably by Soverign) but she has no detials about the Reapers other than to know their "sour yellow note" caused the Rachni to attack the the rest of the galaxy.

Javak is also of somewhat limited us for intel. His people fought a war of attrition and were just ground down. He was not born during the start of the previous reaper invasion, and when he came of age, the war was all but over. He is one of last hold outs. That said, you think he could have provided at least some contextual information that the Alliance could use to start building some manner of strategy. 

The fact is in the ME story as presented, from ME1 to ME3, the Reapers are a force that cannot be beaten in a straight up, conventional space naval battle. While history does furnish us with some examples of big forces losing to larger ones, the FACT of history is that in most cases, the MAJORITY of cases, the military with the large number of forces, better weapons and technology, win and win big. In the majority of cases the more powerful force takes the day. What you are asking for is an entirely different kind of story than the one ME told, which is fine and cool. But it would not be Mass Effect.

[3DandBeyond]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...


I agree with you that too many key, and obvious questions were not asked. That said there are still some issues with your idea.

Take 300 for example. yes, an excellent example of a small force holding out against a bigger one. Not all that great an example for ME for two reasons. First, the Greeks are wiped out to the last man after three days, and not long afterwards Athens is burned to the ground before the allies city states can kick the Persians out. Also, the reason the fight lasted three days instead of three minutes is because the Greeks used the landscape against the invaders. There is no real "landscape" of that sort in the empty space around earth. Maybe they could have built a battle in the asteriod belt or something, really, the battle at the Hot Gates is not the best example.

Other issues like the Rachni. They would only be a limited use. The Rachni queen appears to have some level of "Race memory" about the Rachni wars, but tells us in ME1 that she doesn't know very much at all about the war itself. She has echoes of it, enough to know the Rachni were indoctrinated (presumably by Soverign) but she has no detials about the Reapers other than to know their "sour yellow note" caused the Rachni to attack the the rest of the galaxy.

Javak is also of somewhat limited us for intel. His people fought a war of attrition and were just ground down. He was not born during the start of the previous reaper invasion, and when he came of age, the war was all but over. He is one of last hold outs. That said, you think he could have provided at least some contextual information that the Alliance could use to start building some manner of strategy. 

The fact is in the ME story as presented, from ME1 to ME3, the Reapers are a force that cannot be beaten in a straight up, conventional space naval battle. While history does furnish us with some examples of big forces losing to larger ones, the FACT of history is that in most cases, the MAJORITY of cases, the military with the large number of forces, better weapons and technology, win and win big. In the majority of cases the more powerful force takes the day. What you are asking for is an entirely different kind of story than the one ME told, which is fine and cool. But it would not be Mass Effect.

Honestly-you think I meant they should find topography like the 300 used.  I was giving an example of little guys thinking differently and using what they had to fight a foe that was more powerful.

The problem is if someone cites an example of a small force fighting and defeating a bigger one, everyone thinks we mean to do the exact same thing.  I don't want dreadnoughts in tunnels, I don't want people fighting reapers on tugboats, and I don't think people should strip down and carry swords and shields and try to fight in canyons or on cliffs.   No, I don't mean fight like the 300.  I've repeatedly said not a straight up battle.   This is even more demoralizing than playing the ending.   I mean think outside the box.  You really have no factual basis for saying that in the majority of the cases the most powerful force wins-I can cite time after time where that is just not the case.  What tends to win every time is the person that uses imagination to outwit a much more powerful foe.  That and the guy that is fighting for his home.  Study history.

I am not saying we don't have to live with what's written.  It is what it is.  I am saying it was narrow-minded of the writers and lazy writing to only show them running to make the Crucible and not to every even do anything much else except fight head on and run.

I am saying that throwing it out there that the reapers are impossible to beat when some have clearly been destroyed is part and parcel of what is wrong with all that the devs with ME3.  It sets the tone as defeatest.  You have Shepard at the beginning telling the military board, guess what we can't do anything except hold hands and die.  I have no problem even with that, but then to further keep asserting this as the thrust of a video game is demoralizing and it basically says, you are stupid, give up now.  And yet all along all through these games impossible things have been done continually.  Someone forgot to take their Zoloft before writing this.

I get it-the reapers are big bad guys.  But if you set up a foe as unbeatable and then show people killing them you are asking for it.  You are telling them that maybe that wasn't true and you raise expectations, not of an all out victory but of a chance.  If you abandon that and then keep telling the player to ignore any wins because the galaxy is so screwed so you better hope this pig in a poke works and all, even after other victories, you are effectively shutting down the desire to try.  Top that off with end choices that rest solely on the dubious origins of your savior MacGuffin and the word of an AI whose very appearance seems to be meant to mislead and you have again lowered the desire and thus the belief to even think victory might happen.  And when the choices themselves are telling people that they need either external or internal controls and augmentations to ever be anything or achieve anything because they are doomed to stupid forever more, or they must kill the best representations of what all people strive for-free will, self-determination, and so one (EDI and the Geth) or they can pick door number 4 and just give up and the message is clear.  From the beginning you fought an impossible (but not always) to beat foe and you were incapable of fighting it because you have no independent thought, no valid ideas, and nothing you can do will change that.  At the end of the day you really are too stupid to make anything decent happen so either change what you are and be better because you can't go on like this, live under the control of reaper super commander and his/her minions who will do all that stuff that you can't do for you, or kill what you only wish you could be.  Oh or FU game over.

Impossible, my assets.  Anti-depressants really would help this "game".

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[Wyatt Shepard]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Honestly-you think I meant they should find topography like the 300 used.  I was giving an example of little guys thinking differently and using what they had to fight a foe that was more powerful.

Actually upon reflection do you know what would have been cool? using the Battle of Salamis as an template for a conventional battle with the Reapers.

If you don't know the history, the battle follows the massacre of the Greeks at the hot gates but functions pretty well along the same idea: draw a much larger force into a narrow battle field where their size and strength matters for a lot less, and where you are able to be smaller, faster and more manueverable. The Athenians routed the Persian fleet by drawing them into the straights of Salamis. Although outnumbered, the smaller, faster Athenian ships cut the larger force to pieces. 

It might have been interesting to see the allied forces, provided your EMS is high enough and you met certain conditions, to somehow draw the bulk of Reaper forces into a "space terrian" that would have bottle necked the Reapers and allowed the allied ships the opportunities out manuever the Reapers.  Losses would be catastrophic, but it does at least present a means to defeat most of the large Reaper ships, perhaps with of a few of them escaping to be a future, if diminished, threat.



I

[jamminjamin]

Because forcing you to play god at gun point by a character we know nothing about is not why I paid $70.

You honeslty think those choices are moral? Ethical?

Destroy - you doom an entire species + EDI
Control - you play god (even though your talk with TIM was about not playing god.)
Synthesis - ... what... the...    Where do I begin with that? Changing the laws of nature? Every religion, culture, belief.. all utterly destroyed becoming one glamourus utopia of some weird twilight realm of existance. No thankyou.

What else is there?

Refuse. There is no other choice.

What I don't understand is how pro-enders can accept this. Those choices aren't Mass Effect. The message got muddled... Shepard gives up? Are.. you.. serious??

My Shepard could never accept that, how could yours????