676 réponses à ce sujet

[Avalen]

According to this codex entry masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities the other species would have to outnumber the Reaper capital ships with dreadnoughts 4:1 to beat them. Yes, I know there are many, many variables I'm not considering like tactics and intelligence, but still, it has been hinted that there are hundreds or even thousands of Reaper capital ships while the Council races have 85 dreadnoughts by 2185 plus, say a couple dozen more from non-Council races. Nowhere near enough, even when they are at full strength.

Modifié par Avalen, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:37 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

savionen wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Conventional victory isn't possible because Bioware says so. That's it. Nothing more to discuss. If you still have a problem with this, feel free to stop playing the Mass Effect games.

Okay. People are discussing WHY it should be possible then.

What's the point in that? It's not going to change. Bioware said it isn't possible, so that's how it is. No amount of nit picking or speculating will change that. There's lots of interesting stuff in the universe we could be talking about instead. 

[savionen]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

savionen wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Conventional victory isn't possible because Bioware says so. That's it. Nothing more to discuss. If you still have a problem with this, feel free to stop playing the Mass Effect games.

Okay. People are discussing WHY it should be possible then.

What's the point in that? It's not going to change. Bioware said it isn't possible, so that's how it is. No amount of nit picking or speculating will change that. There's lots of interesting stuff in the universe we could be talking about instead. 

Because the endings are an abomination and people still dislike them.

[Whatever42]

Remember, homeworlds are unimportant in this war. Only production capacity matters.

Think of it as WWII. Sure, the Germans conquered a lot of land and terrorized and killed tens-of-millions of people, but as long as the Soviets had production capacity, the Germans were ultimately doomed, despite starting the war with a massive technological superiority.

The galaxy is huge, production is automated. Without a quick victory, the Reapers cannot possibly win. A drawn out war is doom for the Reapers.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:40 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

savionen wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

savionen wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Conventional victory isn't possible because Bioware says so. That's it. Nothing more to discuss. If you still have a problem with this, feel free to stop playing the Mass Effect games.

Okay. People are discussing WHY it should be possible then.

What's the point in that? It's not going to change. Bioware said it isn't possible, so that's how it is. No amount of nit picking or speculating will change that. There's lots of interesting stuff in the universe we could be talking about instead. 

Because the endings are an abomination and people still dislike them.

I think we get that by now. Some people like them, some people don't. We got the EC and bioware won't be changing them, so there really is no point to your endless complaining. It is how it is. The end.

[Hudathan]

Because they think conventional wars are won with intangibles such as willpower rather than tangibles such as logistics. Inb4 someone says that a game doesn't need a realistic story.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Eluril wrote...

I've said before and will say it again: people wanting a straight conventional victory are like those that want the Elf, Dwarf, and Human armies in Lord of the Rings to storm the black gate and have Aragorn behead Sauron in a one on one duel. In other words, fools!

Reapers aren't near-immortal demigods wielding supernatural powers created eons ago, just really advanced space cuttlefish, so your comparison is WAY off here. BTW, you also left out the Ents, and the Eagles of Manwe. *gets extra nerd points*

On the other hand, it's very possible based on several arguments that I won't waste time repeating here. This is an issue that will continue to be debated.

[inko1nsiderate]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Remember, homeworlds are unimportant in this war. Only production capacity matters.

Think of it as WWII. Sure, the Germans conquered a lot of land and terrorized and killed tens-of-millions of people, but as long as the Soviets had production capacity, the Germans were ultimately doomed, despite starting the war with a massive technological superiority.

The galaxy is huge, production is automated. Without a quick victory, the Reapers cannot possibly win. A drawn out war is doom for the Reapers.

How?  They produce new Reaper ground forces every world they take (as Garrus says this is a two-fold victory: both by replenishing ground troops and by a psychological victory against the remaining non-Reaper forces).  They do not have war weariness, they do not get indoctrinated, they do not starve to death, they do not die to exposure.  It seems like you have this precisely backwards.  The Reapers don't need supply lines.  They could win solely by disrupting supply lines repeatedly.

[Galbrant]

Avalen wrote...

According to this codex entry masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities the other species would have to outnumber the Reaper capital ships with dreadnoughts 4:1 to beat them. Yes, I know there are many, many variables I'm not considering like tactics and intelligence, but still, it has been hinted that there are hundreds or even thousands of Reaper capital ships while the Council races have 85 dreadnoughts by 2185 plus, say a couple dozen more from non-Council races. Nowhere near enough, even when they are at full strength.

That's only what we have now. How long does it take to build those ships?  With a united galaxy and with the Geth  they can build ships 24/7  with the help of the Rachni.... There are so many things that can eventually give us an edge to drive out the Reapers.

[Carlthestrange]

I seem to keep seeing this thread...

[savionen]

Hudathan wrote...

Because they think conventional wars are won with intangibles such as willpower rather than tangibles such as logistics. Inb4 someone says that a game doesn't need a realistic story.

Nah, I would have liked to see a lot of unconventional tactics. The Krogan and Mercenaries landing on Reapers and invading them, the Geth and Quarians creating a virus. The Alliance reverse-engineering Reaper shields, etc. Would have been nice to to at least see them try. If each race created something new during the war maybe EMS/War Assets would actually do something. ME3 initially lead a lot of people to believe that you were building an army to fight the Reapers, not build a minimal suicide squad of 1/5th the galaxy to sacrifice while Shepard talks to God-Kid.

Galbrant wrote...

Avalen wrote...

According to this codex entry masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities
the other species would have to outnumber the Reaper capital ships with
dreadnoughts 4:1 to beat them. Yes, I know there are many, many
variables I'm not considering like tactics and intelligence, but still,
it has been hinted that there are hundreds or even thousands of Reaper
capital ships while the Council races have 85 dreadnoughts by 2185 plus,
say a couple dozen more from non-Council races. Nowhere near enough,
even when they are at full strength.

That's only
what we have now. How long does it take to build those ships?  With a
united galaxy and with the Geth  they can build ships 24/7  with the
help of the Rachni.... There are so many things that can eventually give
us an edge to drive out the Reapers.

That's part of it too. What's the point of War Assets and EMS with the Crucible? Why are you even building an army from a gameplay perspective? The Crucible fires regardless. The Reapers lose regardless. (Well except Synthesis.)

Modifié par savionen, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

Galbrant wrote...

Avalen wrote...

According to this codex entry masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities the other species would have to outnumber the Reaper capital ships with dreadnoughts 4:1 to beat them. Yes, I know there are many, many variables I'm not considering like tactics and intelligence, but still, it has been hinted that there are hundreds or even thousands of Reaper capital ships while the Council races have 85 dreadnoughts by 2185 plus, say a couple dozen more from non-Council races. Nowhere near enough, even when they are at full strength.

That's only what we have now. How long does it take to build those ships?  With a united galaxy and with the Geth  they can build ships 24/7  with the help of the Rachni.... There are so many things that can eventually give us an edge to drive out the Reapers.

Yeah, it definitely isn't taking the fact that we have the Rachni and fully evolved Geth with Reaper tech working on our side if you either sacrifice the Quarians or end the war with both still alive.

[Whatever42]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Remember, homeworlds are unimportant in this war. Only production capacity matters.

Think of it as WWII. Sure, the Germans conquered a lot of land and terrorized and killed tens-of-millions of people, but as long as the Soviets had production capacity, the Germans were ultimately doomed, despite starting the war with a massive technological superiority.

The galaxy is huge, production is automated. Without a quick victory, the Reapers cannot possibly win. A drawn out war is doom for the Reapers.

How?  They produce new Reaper ground forces every world they take (as Garrus says this is a two-fold victory: both by replenishing ground troops and by a psychological victory against the remaining non-Reaper forces).  They do not have war weariness, they do not get indoctrinated, they do not starve to death, they do not die to exposure.  It seems like you have this precisely backwards.  The Reapers don't need supply lines.  They could win solely by disrupting supply lines repeatedly.

Ground forces are unimportant to victory. Reapers could have easily obliterated the planets from orbit with the same effect. However, destroy the Reapers in space, and they can't do anything.

[jstme]

[quote]The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...
[/quote]
First and foremost, conventional vistory is possible because it is a science FICTION. Someone writes the stuff. If it was possible to write synthesis, then it is more then possible to write tons of different conventional victory scenarios - including the one in which Shep[ard tickles all the reapers to death with a feather. 

[quote]
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
[/quote]
As others mentioned, there were tons of Geth. And it was only one of several Alliance fleets. And Sovereign stopping fighting back because it has to control Saren syntheissed husk is a)stupid reaper weakness that can be used for conventional victory c) low processing power or bandwith problem d)fiction written by bunch of guys.
[quote]
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
[/quote]
Good chunk of Quarian fleet finished off fully functional reaper destroyer by concentrated fire in less then a minute. Victory fleet fought for much longer time and was much more powerfull. Concentrating fire trick would result in loss of hundreds of destroyers. Each reaper ship destroyed is loss of canned civilisation goo and is a problem to replenish.
Each victory fleet ship lost needs manpower,workforce and resources to replenish. Universe has plenty of those.
 Speaking of which:  whole Quarian fleet was getting wrecked by Geth Drednought. So Geth mass-producing drednoughts instead of upgrading Quarian suits is a better thing to do in face of impending doom.
[quote]
-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.
[/quote]
? this is foolish arguement. Its like the claim : "No thresher maw took down alliance frigate so alliance frigates are tougher then reaper destroyers. 
[quote]
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
[/quote]
They were not ready. Now they are ready. Plus, have their manpower left. In 1812 Napoleon took Moscow and most people left the city. Russians and their allies won the war that very year.
[quote]
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
[/quote]
This is because shooting small firearms at tank, not to mention at reaper ship - is incredibly stupid. Ground forces are there to hold the ground. Dig in. Change positions. Fight enemy ground forces. Not shoot spaceships. In case of overwhelming enemy that can fry anything in the area in msecs, the tactics are retreat and regroup. Not ask for reinforcments lol.  
[quote]
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
[/quote]
So?
[quote]
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
[/quote]
One of Alliance fleets. So? US prior to WW2 had few hundreds of tanks. They built tens of thousands during the war. War economy is not peace economy.
[quote]
-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.
[/quote]
Then they should not be used in conventional war. Waiting for reapers to strike their planets while uncapable to hold on is a Hackett level of strategy.  
[quote]
-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.
[/quote]
The victory fleet was not entire galaxy fleet. And yet reaper ships were destroyed. Rebuilding repaer ships is not as easy as rebuilding ships of rest of the galaxy.
[quote]
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...

Well guys?[/quote]
Then build  eleven ships per each reaper and war is won conventionally. See, even you can write scenario of conventional victory.  

[Urdnot Amenark]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Remember, homeworlds are unimportant in this war. Only production capacity matters.

Think of it as WWII. Sure, the Germans conquered a lot of land and terrorized and killed tens-of-millions of people, but as long as the Soviets had production capacity, the Germans were ultimately doomed, despite starting the war with a massive technological superiority.

The galaxy is huge, production is automated. Without a quick victory, the Reapers cannot possibly win. A drawn out war is doom for the Reapers.

How?  They produce new Reaper ground forces every world they take (as Garrus says this is a two-fold victory: both by replenishing ground troops and by a psychological victory against the remaining non-Reaper forces).  They do not have war weariness, they do not get indoctrinated, they do not starve to death, they do not die to exposure.  It seems like you have this precisely backwards.  The Reapers don't need supply lines.  They could win solely by disrupting supply lines repeatedly.

Ground forces are unimportant to victory. Reapers could have easily obliterated the planets from orbit with the same effect. However, destroy the Reapers in space, and they can't do anything.

You know, this might actually be a good time to use the data that TIM acquired on the weaknesses of the Reapers. At the very least, we know that certain Reapers (Destroyers if I remember correctly) have an exploitable weakness that definitely can end some of them way quicker than normal. 

[BerzerkGene]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...
-It took a good chunk of the Alliance fleet to take down Sovereign, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took a good chunk of the Quarian fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper, while he wasn't fighting back
-It took the galaxy's biggest Thresher Maw and a good amount of luck to take down the Tuchanka Reaper, and it was a small one.
-The galaxy's best military, the Turians, were being decimated, so much so that Palaven had to be fully evacuated.
-Hammer was being overrun on Earth. It would also take just a few Reapers to decimate the ground forces, really.
-The Migrant Fleet is made up of mostly civilian ships
-The Alliance Fleet was weakened during the Sovereign/Geth attack
-It's been said or implied many times that the Salarians and Asari aren't built for conventional war.
-The Reaper force at Earth wasn't the entire Reaper force, and they were still winning.
-It takes one Reaper to take out 10 of our ships and it takes ten of our ships to take out a Reaper...
Well guys?

Two words: Thanix Cannons.
Backwards engineered Reaper weaponry that could shear a collector cruiser in half with 2 shots. Add their widespread use throughout the Alliance and Turian military, some being freaking massive, the fact you have thousands of ships(You can even have the Council give the geth lots of Thanixs) and you have an army who has firepower on par with the Reapers at the least.
You will notice in all the cutscenes, despite their widespread use and absurd power NO ONE USES THEM. They were basically retconned so you didn't have a chance. I recall finding a volus dreadnought that also had about 2 dozen thanix cannons. Thats more firepower than a sovereign class reaper. Maybe not Harbinger, who can beam spam with the best of them. Don't forget the Normandy, which you can outfit with one, which can fire every few seconds. A few SECONDS. It would mean the Normandy should be tearing **** up above earth.
Extra: Javelin missiles. While no where near as powerful as Thanix cannons, these are basically the best anti ship weaponry. Anything from fighters to dreadnoughts can carry them. These tear apart kinetic barriers fields. They should do enough damage to a Reaper barrier to weaken it significantly.

-The turians were caught off guard, despite Garrus's best efforts.
-The Tactics at the end are the worst military tactics i have ever seen. This from a person who plays space battle games. I even reenacted the battle with several Homeworld 2 mods, while a mass effect one is still in production, i substituted. I won. Why? Tactics. Also a much weaker substitution for Thanix Cannons. I had a much smaller fleet than the one in ME too. Flying right into the enemy's firing range in a loose cluster is stupid at best, suicidal at worst. Especially when you have the advantage of range. Sword fleet fires long before the Reapers have range on them. When conventional tactics won't be enough, you go to the unconventional.
-War Assets are not properly represented. This is the biggest one. With all the Krogan, Rachni, Geth, Turians and the rest supposedly fighting on the ground, taking out husks, half of which have no ranged weapons, should be quite easy. Shipwise you don't even see half of everyone you can get. I got Balak, i got the Salarians, Ex Cerberus, i got every single possible asset. Believe me, i missed nothing. I barely see ANY of them.
-The Alliance only lost part of the fifth fleet taking down sovereign. One fleet, without Thanix cannons or other advances in technology. Hackett only loses three fleets covering the others escape from earth, you have 4 fleets and you add to them, just from the Alliance.
-Quarians do not have Thanix Cannons, yet still held their own against the Geth. They have the largest fleet and they're basically all weaponized. From war cruisers to the live ships running as long range support.
-The Destroyer on Tuchanka was a matter of convenience. Hackett and the turians were busy so there was no fleet to spare. Plus that reaper got owned.
-No one cares about the Salarians or Asari, they're mostly ground based or support.
-The Reaper force at earth was the bulk of their forces. There were only a few Reapers in each system. There were supposedly hundreds at earth.
-1 reaper can take out 10 ships that can't dodge. Firgates, corvettes and fighters, after sweeping up those occuli, would be able to fire with impunity, and frigates mounted with Thanix Cannons(like the Normandy) can hit hard and fast. also saying 10 ships to take out one of theirs is fairly generous, by that math we should crush them with our tens of thousands of ships. With Thanix cannons, that would probably be accurate. The larger ships should stay out of range until the occuli are dead, while the reapers focus on the smaller, much harder to hit ships while the dreadnoughts and such(with huge friggin guns) stay out of range and provide long range support.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:01 .

[savionen]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You know, this might actually be a good time to use the data that TIM acquired on the weaknesses of the Reapers. At the very least, we know that certain Reapers (Destroyers if I remember correctly) have an exploitable weakness that definitely can end some of them way quicker than normal. 

That's what bugs me the most about conventional victory not being possible. It's not that the story says it's impossible, it's that they do absolutely nothing in ME3 to attempt to make it possible. That's why Hackett is a defeatist. There's hundreds of dead reapers all over the place, we're not going to study them?

[Whatever42]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You know, this might actually be a good time to use the data that TIM acquired on the weaknesses of the Reapers. At the very least, we know that certain Reapers (Destroyers if I remember correctly) have an exploitable weakness that definitely can end some of them way quicker than normal. 

That is another big advantage we have over the Reapers, beyond a much larger production capacity. We can improve our technology and tactics.

For us to improve technologically, we simply have to continue to develop our understanding of Reaper technology. The Reapers aren't technologically improving at all. If a war stretches out years, giving us countless new samples of Reaper technology, we will catch up to some significant degree.

Heck, I could see us obliterating the Reapers inside a few years. Yes, most sentients would die, because even after we achieved military superiority, we have numerous fixed positions to defend while the Reapers are the Mongols of old. However, eventually the Reapers would be winnowed down and our military supriority would become overwhelming.

[spiriticon]

No one knows the exact strength of the Reapers. Sure we could beat a few of them conventionally by catching them off guard, but they could number in the gazillions out there in Dark Space. Maybe even infinite(!). Who knows.

It's hard to plan any military action when you don't really know your enemy's true strengths and weaknesses. It's too risky.

[BerzerkGene]

Avalen wrote...

According to this codex entry masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities the other species would have to outnumber the Reaper capital ships with dreadnoughts 4:1 to beat them. Yes, I know there are many, many variables I'm not considering like tactics and intelligence, but still, it has been hinted that there are hundreds or even thousands of Reaper capital ships while the Council races have 85 dreadnoughts by 2185 plus, say a couple dozen more from non-Council races. Nowhere near enough, even when they are at full strength.

Wrong. Thanix cannons tip the scales. You have far more than 4:1 ships, give em the guns, win. The tactics are stil lterrible in the end, but the cannons give each ship firepower nearly on par with a reaper. The Normandy is a good example, it would be able to blast reapers left and right(not kill them, but cause heavy damage with each shot) because its too agile to shoot down with reaper guns, and can hit very, VERY hard. Just ask the Collectors

[BerzerkGene]

spiriticon wrote...

No one knows the exact strength of the Reapers. Sure we could beat a few of them conventionally by catching them off guard, but they could number in the gazillions out there in Dark Space. Maybe even infinite(!). Who knows.

It's hard to plan any military action when you don't really know your enemy's true strengths and weaknesses. It's too risky.

Theres only meant to be a couple thousand, they have brought thir full might against the galaxy.  They have not held back.

[spiriticon]

BerzerkGene wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

No one knows the exact strength of the Reapers. Sure we could beat a few of them conventionally by catching them off guard, but they could number in the gazillions out there in Dark Space. Maybe even infinite(!). Who knows.

It's hard to plan any military action when you don't really know your enemy's true strengths and weaknesses. It's too risky.

Theres only meant to be a couple thousand, they have brought thir full might against the galaxy.  They have not held back.

Is there any codex entry which states this to be true? I must have missed it.

Modifié par spiriticon, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You know, this might actually be a good time to use the data that TIM acquired on the weaknesses of the Reapers. At the very least, we know that certain Reapers (Destroyers if I remember correctly) have an exploitable weakness that definitely can end some of them way quicker than normal. 

That is another big advantage we have over the Reapers, beyond a much larger production capacity. We can improve our technology and tactics.

For us to improve technologically, we simply have to continue to develop our understanding of Reaper technology. The Reapers aren't technologically improving at all. If a war stretches out years, giving us countless new samples of Reaper technology, we will catch up to some significant degree.

Heck, I could see us obliterating the Reapers inside a few years. Yes, most sentients would die, because even after we achieved military superiority, we have numerous fixed positions to defend while the Reapers are the Mongols of old. However, eventually the Reapers would be winnowed down and our military supriority would become overwhelming.

Not to forget we have Commander Shepard, who's killed or helped kill how many of these bad boys? 

[Urdnot Amenark]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You know, this might actually be a good time to use the data that TIM acquired on the weaknesses of the Reapers. At the very least, we know that certain Reapers (Destroyers if I remember correctly) have an exploitable weakness that definitely can end some of them way quicker than normal. 

That is another big advantage we have over the Reapers, beyond a much larger production capacity. We can improve our technology and tactics.

For us to improve technologically, we simply have to continue to develop our understanding of Reaper technology. The Reapers aren't technologically improving at all. If a war stretches out years, giving us countless new samples of Reaper technology, we will catch up to some significant degree.

Heck, I could see us obliterating the Reapers inside a few years. Yes, most sentients would die, because even after we achieved military superiority, we have numerous fixed positions to defend while the Reapers are the Mongols of old. However, eventually the Reapers would be winnowed down and our military supriority would become overwhelming.

Yeah, I could see it happening within a decade perhaps - to give it a realistic and tense timeline - and did I forget to mention this: what if Shepard could destroy the very Catalyst itself? Since that VI basically controls and guides the Reapers to do what it wills, I'd bet that destroying that thing would cause untold chaos among the Reapers, giving us a chance to beat them conventionally. Then to top it off, all we'd need is some omnigel!