676 réponses à ce sujet

[BerzerkGene]

Zero132132 wrote...

Because people are stupid. They don't realize that this is exactly what galactic society has been DOING for the entire game, and that we've been getting wrecked. They also don't get that Reapers win one-on-one with any ship that we have, and that there are WAY more of them than there are of us.

People insist it because they hate the ending. That's all there is to it. It's wishful thinking. EXTREMELY wishful thinking.

They've been fighting on their own. United we stand, divided we fall. All that stuff,
There are not more of them than us. Not even close. That would mean there are tens of thousands of them, at the very very least somewhere about 60,000. If they had that kind of firepower then they would win in days or weeks. Not 100 years.
A ship 1 on 1, of course not. But Thanix Cannons drastically change the odds. you would only need a couple Thanix equipped ships for each reaper! One if its like that Volus dreadnought which had 2 dozen thanix cannons.

Winning conventionally makes sense. At great cost, but its doesn't mean its impossible. The Reapers being pushed back at palaven proves they can be beaten, again at great cost.

[Enjou]

On Thanix Cannons - I'm not sure why people act as if this is a cure-all technology. Yes, they are better than the current conventional weapons, but there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. They are a scaled down version of the original Reaper weapon, not full copies. They are not as powerful as the original. Powering one as good as the Reaper's version is still a problem because it takes a really good eezo core. It's better than the normal weapons, but doesn't quite put us on par with them. Their shields and armor are still better too, especially on their dreadnaughts, so they'll still cause more damage in a one on one fight, so you'd still need a fleet that outnumbers theirs and the galaxy didn't have that even before they started destroying everything that would be needed to build a bigger fleet.

2. Even by the time the fleet arrives for the battle at Earth, most of the ships had not been upgraded to use Thanix cannons. It takes a significant amount of time and resources to make such an upgrade. By the time you could upgrade every ship, you're probably not going to have many ships left, and the time it will take is going to be vastly increased considering that the Reapers have been tearing through our infrastructure like a hot knife through butter.

[Kamfrenchie]

We insist conventionnal victory is possible because that would be better writing than the ass pull crucible.

Why woul you need to build dreadnaught specifically ? If something can dstroy your most heavily armored ship/tank what do you do ? You don't build more of them. You build lighter ships/tanks with the same firepower that's the concept aplied for tank destroyers in WW2. TheGerman panthers and tiger could crack open almot any tanks, so th allies built cheaper tank estroyer that had poor armor but good AP capability and good manouverbility. Expandabl stuff. Yu know the history about the german commander saying
"one of our tanks could take out 10 of yours but you always had 11"


As for the citadel shutting down relay, just have C-sec rigg it with explosives in case the reapers get their ands on it, done.

[Kamfrenchie]

Enjou wrote...

On Thanix Cannons - I'm not sure why people act as if this is a cure-all technology. Yes, they are better than the current conventional weapons, but there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. They are a scaled down version of the original Reaper weapon, not full copies. They are not as powerful as the original. Powering one as good as the Reaper's version is still a problem because it takes a really good eezo core. It's better than the normal weapons, but doesn't quite put us on par with them. Their shields and armor are still better too, especially on their dreadnaughts, so they'll still cause more damage in a one on one fight, so you'd still need a fleet that outnumbers theirs and the galaxy didn't have that even before they started destroying everything that would be needed to build a bigger fleet.

2. Even by the time the fleet arrives for the battle at Earth, most of the ships had not been upgraded to use Thanix cannons. It takes a significant amount of time and resources to make such an upgrade. By the time you could upgrade every ship, you're probably not going to have many ships left, and the time it will take is going to be vastly increased considering that the Reapers have been tearing through our infrastructure like a hot knife through butter.

That's the galaxy being magicaly incompetent. Mobilize everyone, like in a real war, make em work like slaves if necessary, and done.

Yes thanix isn't magic, it's like a garand vs maybe a m16. It's stil a deadly weapon

[BerzerkGene]

Rhz wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Rhz wrote...

Because its like North korea fighting against the USA, military victory is impossible without any kind of super weapon

Thats an extremely bad comparison. Korea has no where near the tech the usa does, barring small stuff. Not to mention the ban on their research.
The Reapers are tough, but when you have weapons comparable, they're significantly less tough.

well ok, lets see what codex says

The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy.
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws.
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's
Everest-class dreadnoughts.
Precise targeting computers and correctors also
give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics'
dreadnoughts or cruisers.

That last sentence is pretty important, as its wrongly shown in the final space battle, the reapers could obliterate sword fleet before they get close enough to make precise shots to cut off tentacles. And the thanix canon is according to the codex a miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun, I dont know if that fits the term "compareable"

Well then they displayed it wrong. It makes the tactics look even worse then too.
Bioware seems to just ignore the codex anyway.
Its not so much miniaturized as backwards engineered and scaled down. Its well, nearly comprable. 2 shots blows up a collector cruiser. A Reaper should not be that many more, especially if you target their weak spot. The weapons seem to ignore kinetic barriers entirely, Reaper and thanix alike, so it might oinly be 2 shots as well. We don't know because they're presence is entirely ignored.

[dirty console peasant]

Rhz wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Rhz wrote...

Because its like North korea fighting against the USA, military victory is impossible without any kind of super weapon

Thats an extremely bad comparison. Korea has no where near the tech the usa does, barring small stuff. Not to mention the ban on their research.
The Reapers are tough, but when you have weapons comparable, they're significantly less tough.

well ok, lets see what codex says

The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy.
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws.
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's
Everest-class dreadnoughts.
Precise targeting computers and correctors also
give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics'
dreadnoughts or cruisers.

That last sentence is pretty important, as its wrongly shown in the final space battle, the reapers could obliterate sword fleet before they get close enough to make precise shots to cut off tentacles. And the thanix canon is according to the codex a miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun, I dont know if that fits the term "compareable"

here is another codex entry that refutes your point
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities
and here is some supporting in game content

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Mass_Effect_3_2
take a look at the last paragraph in that section
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien#Volus_Dreadnought_Kwunu
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Salarian#Salarian_Third_Fleet

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[NM_Che56]

Here's your answer OP:

Red) Proponents of this opinion have superior knowledge of make believe war tactics against make believe enemies

Blue) Wanton disregard as to what other characters in the game say (e.g. Vendetta, a 50k year old Prothean VI says you can't do it conventionally).

Green) Abject hatred of the current endings. Either stemming from having unrealistic expectations that the writers will make the story end EXACTLY the way they wanted it and to their tastes or from deep-seated denial that the story has concluded.

Take your pick!

[ArchDuck]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm willing to listen if you're willing to look at the evidence that it's extremely unlikely...

Yeah! You supported "coventional" victory in your first sentence.

It is unlikely but not impossible.

Improbably =/= Impossible

Most people aren't saying it should be easy, just possible.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .

[v TricKy v]

Laser weapons would have solved everything. Barriers are useless against them. But for some reason no one ever bothered the make them more viable

[NM_Che56]

v TricKy v wrote...

Laser weapons would have solved everything. Barriers are useless against them. But for some reason no one ever bothered the make them more viable

"LASERS"

[Welsh Inferno]

I think people miss the fact that the Reapers have the Citadel. IE, they will shut down the relay network if we decided to regroup from Priority: Earth. So we are fudged anyway. Why they didn't just shut down the network the moment they captured it I will never know... oh wait I know... Ya missed somethin' thar Mac Walters..

[BerzerkGene]

Enjou wrote...

On Thanix Cannons - I'm not sure why people act as if this is a cure-all technology. Yes, they are better than the current conventional weapons, but there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. They are a scaled down version of the original Reaper weapon, not full copies. They are not as powerful as the original. Powering one as good as the Reaper's version is still a problem because it takes a really good eezo core. It's better than the normal weapons, but doesn't quite put us on par with them. Their shields and armor are still better too, especially on their dreadnaughts, so they'll still cause more damage in a one on one fight, so you'd still need a fleet that outnumbers theirs and the galaxy didn't have that even before they started destroying everything that would be needed to build a bigger fleet.

2. Even by the time the fleet arrives for the battle at Earth, most of the ships had not been upgraded to use Thanix cannons. It takes a significant amount of time and resources to make such an upgrade. By the time you could upgrade every ship, you're probably not going to have many ships left, and the time it will take is going to be vastly increased considering that the Reapers have been tearing through our infrastructure like a hot knife through butter.

Its not a cure all, but the fact that their utter absence is never addressed is very jarring. They're the most powerful Ship based weapons the galaxy has avaliable
1.Not as powerful, but still way better than any other spacegun. It doesn't require a "really good eezo core" it just requires one.
"The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor"
ANY known shield or armour. So Reapers invulnerability? Gone. It means you could cripple or destroy a reaper with a few well placed shots. The Normandy in particular would be effective at this. Again, the Reapers do not outnumber the Galaxy. To do so would mean tens of thousands more ships than they actually have and would not result in an estimated 100 year war.

2. Widespread use in the Alliance and Turian miltary. You can even have the Alliance gift the Geth with a bunch of them. "After Commander Shepard's interview with Diana Allers assuring her viewers that the geth can be trusted, Alliance officials grudgingly sent over Thanix cannons for the geth fleet." This means they had spares lying around. You don't even need that many. not the entire fleet. Even 100 would take a significant chunk out of the entire Reaqper force. Again with producing them. The Crucible was built in a few months and it was simply huge, the size of a small moon. Mass producing comparitivly tiny weapons would be childs play. Oh, also:
"The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates, including the Normandy SR-2, and gives them firepower rivaling cruisers.
" So fighters could rip up reapers.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[Zero132132]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Because people are stupid. They don't realize that this is exactly what galactic society has been DOING for the entire game, and that we've been getting wrecked. They also don't get that Reapers win one-on-one with any ship that we have, and that there are WAY more of them than there are of us.

People insist it because they hate the ending. That's all there is to it. It's wishful thinking. EXTREMELY wishful thinking.

They've been fighting on their own. United we stand, divided we fall. All that stuff,
There are not more of them than us. Not even close. That would mean there are tens of thousands of them, at the very very least somewhere about 60,000. If they had that kind of firepower then they would win in days or weeks. Not 100 years.
A ship 1 on 1, of course not. But Thanix Cannons drastically change the odds. you would only need a couple Thanix equipped ships for each reaper! One if its like that Volus dreadnought which had 2 dozen thanix cannons.

Winning conventionally makes sense. At great cost, but its doesn't mean its impossible. The Reapers being pushed back at palaven proves they can be beaten, again at great cost.

So what you're saying is, putting all of our ships together, each of which the Reapers can take out with one single shot, is going to be better than the standard hit-and-run tactics that have successfully repelled, in the real world, enemies that are more advanced technologically? You're essentially advocating symmetric warfare against an enemy that, by every realistic standard, is much stronger than us. Even if this isn't your intention, naval assymetrical warfare generally uses surroundings to their advantage, but space is almost entirely empty, with a few asteroids, planets, and stars in between. There really aren't surroundings to USE to your advantage. A principle is often to use smaller ships, since they're harder to target, but the Reapers are basically aimbots, and their shots seem to travel quickly enough that evading a direct hit is difficult. The sort of weapons capable of actually beating them aren't things we can fit on small ships, either. From the codex entry on Reaper vulnerabilities: "In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts."

It takes four of our most powerful ships to take down one Reaper. This would be fine if they were spread out enough that we could send four or five dreadnoughts after single Reapers, but they usually overwhelm a planet in force. Taking them on one-at-a-time isn't an option.

Modifié par Zero132132, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[moater boat]

Here is the key issue that so many people overlook. When people say that reapers could be defeated conventionally, they are saying that ME3 could have been written so that a conventional victory is possible. Because the complaint is about the crappy writing in ME3, you can't refute the complaint USING the crappy writing from ME3. That just doesn't work. ME3 could have EASILY been written with a conventional victory ending without contradicting anything we learned in ME or ME2. Here are just a few examples of how good writing could have made it possible

The alliance replaces their losses from the battle of the citadel, and develops new ships specifically geared towards dealing with a threat of Sovereigns size.

The Asari either replace the Destiny Ascension with a newer, better version, if it was lost, or just build a second, or maybe even two more.

Cerberus doesn't pull a complete 180 and work for the Reapers

They actually use Thannix cannons

The Turians replace their losses and develop new weapons and tactics for dealing with Reapers.

Shepard has a chance to make peace between the Quarians and Geth BEFORE they kick the crap out of each other.

The Salarians use their stealth dreadnaughts to perform hit and run attacks to keep the Reapers off balance

The Shadow broker network is used to gain valuable intelligence about the movement of Reapers

The Rachni are not worthless.

The game could have featured several more minor races that, while not major military powers, could have made a respectable contribution to the combined fleet

All the effort that went into building the crucible are instead used to produced a well armed fleet

Merchant chips are fitted with guns and included in the fleet

The mercenary companies, which are galaxy wide organizations, are actually well armed and include not only the foot soldiers, but the armed transports needed to move them around, and a compliment of heavily armed cruisers and frigates to act as escorts.

Technological breakthroughs are found in the ship graveyard on the other side of the Omega 4 relay.

I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.

[egnit]

BerzerkGene wrote...

The relay point is moot until the Reapers bother to shut them down, even then, the  Normandy has an IFF which would let it use the relays if they only let reapers through. It would also make a really good chance to study them even if you couldn't get through.

The QE thing seems rather odd, as everyone seems to have them and the Normandy can connect to multiple locations, not just one, like in ME2. Then theres the thing on Earth, which seems to have about a dozen just in the local area. Either that or its easy to set up.

Production: Really, you don't think robotics and automation would have advanced? You could have a bunch of VI's do everything. They build the crucible in a couple months, which makes dreadnoughts look like toys and was meant to be so complex no one knew what the hell it did. There was a limit on dreadnoughts so they were not made at any great haste. If war was imminent, then i bet they would make them in weeks to months.

The Relays: It's just bad/convenient writing that the reapers don't shut down the relays once they control the citadel, or else there would be no Priority: Earth. A quick blurb about the Proetheans altering the citadel's programming to stop the reapers from using it in that matter would help. To be honest I don't know how many people remember that line from Vigil in ME1.

The QE Thing: Yeah, I just chalk it up to bad/convenient writing again. Its easier if you just get that quick holograph comunication and emails. They say the whole system should be down, and yet here they are using it to their heart's content.

Production: I don't doubt automation. I doubt the capability to construct without  solid logistics in place. The Crucible could be built, with great effort, in large part because they still had access to the Mass Relays. They had an influx of labor, minds, and material that made it all worth it.

It really is a brilliant strategy. They rely on the reaper's technology and then when the reapers take that away, its just a long, mop up operation. Sovereign said it best when he told Shep that they guide technological development in the ways they want, so that its easiert o harvest. With the Relays active, I think the organics have, at least, a fighting chance. Once the reapers stop and remind themselves 'Hey! We can shut down the relay network!', then its all over but the crying.

[NM_Che56]

Apparently, that's not what the writers had in mind. Oh well.

[Zero132132]

Luxure wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Because people are stupid. They don't realize that this is exactly what galactic society has been DOING for the entire game, and that we've been getting wrecked. They also don't get that Reapers win one-on-one with any ship that we have, and that there are WAY more of them than there are of us.

People insist it because they hate the ending. That's all there is to it. It's wishful thinking. EXTREMELY wishful thinking.

You're one of those people I don't want to live on my planet anymore. We need to be united if we want a better future. And for that, we need to change our way of thinking. Stop thinking of everyone else as like they're "full" stupid and try to communicate, to understand, come to an agreement, whatever it needs to be done so we can work together. Together for a better future ( I don't know where I've heard this one before ).

So what you're saying is, you advocate togetherness, but you don't want a lot of people living on your planet anymore? Sort of... odd. Where would you prefer I go? Mars? I'm pretty sure the job market there is AWFUL, being as there's no life there or anything.

I've seen what others claim would lead to success, but in the game itself, we never see Reapers taken down easily and cleanly enough to make it at all realistic. That, and they're objectively wrong, since 'reject' leads to a loss. This actually directly means that in the story, beating the Reapers without the crucible didn't happen. People keep speculating when we actually HAVE an answer. Communication doesn't really seem like a strong option.

[pseudonymic]

find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.

[Whatever42]

egnit wrote...

First: Yes, we do have FTL, but it is extremely inefficient and would exhaust eezo supplies and take decades to get someplace in a hurry. The species of the galaxy have come to rely on the technology of the relays, its something the reapers count on. Without the relays, organics are sunk.

 

Decades works to our advantage. And we wouldn't have mass commerce, so that would stretch out any eezo supply. 

egnit wrote... 

Second: The Protheans built one relay. A single one-way relay. I'm certain the species could build relays, but that would require massive efforts in man and material that, without the current mass relays, isn't getting anywhere anytime soon.

The Protheans who built the one relay were a small band of scientist refugees. And yes, relays would have to be built strategically - not looking to replace the current relay network. 

egnit wrote... 

Third: Quantum Entaglement is a great method of communication, provided everyone has it, and they don't. To comunicate on that scale every supply world would have to have one. Every foundry. Every research station. There just aren't that many in the galaxy, and I think most of them are actually with the fleets at Earth.

Again, not rebuilding galactic civilization - only coordinating military activities. One per region should be fine. Then they could communicate more locally. 

egnit wrote... 

Fourth: With the geth and AI, yeah, you have a valid point. I think an organic would be better, but I will concede that uploading Geth to ships would work. Just have to hope you didn't kill them all off and nix that option.

The Geth are convenient but not vital. We are quite capable of building advanced AIs. We simply don't because they scare us. The Reapers would scare us more, I think.

egnit wrote...  

Fifth: Construction of a car is extremely difficult. It requires multiple factories all building pieces in tande, to be assembled. It can take several years to build a seaworthy ship and that's a hundred times more complicated. Imagine how long it would take to build a dreadnaught? With the relays intact and no galactic war straining things it took the Alliance years to build a dreadnaught. They would have a) gather all the resources they need to fabricate the construction facilities, ship, and maintanace for the drones that will build the ship. Actually travel, at FTL, to this location, c) Build a plant to contruct the parts d) build the ship itself. They have to do all that and then wait for the ship to not only be constructed, but for it to travel back to the fleet. What you suggest is a logistical nightmare, and that's even without taking into account indoctrinated spies or even building the machines that will operate on their own to build the ships.

You are thinking in 20th century peace-time terms. The Soviet Union in 1940 produced about 3000 fighting vehicles, mostly light vehicles. In 1943 it produced 35 000 vehicles, mostly medium and heavy tanks. And that's using just human labour. 

As long as you have the resources to bootstrap production, you're away to the races. It doesn't take people. Set up your artifical intelligences. You have 100 billion stars in the Milky Way and hundreds of billions of planets. Resources are effectively limitless. The places to hide are limitless. 

egnit wrote...  

Yes, the galaxy is huge beyond reason. Its even larger when you have to travel at FTL. Alpha Centari is our closest neigbbor at around 4 light years away. According to the Mass Effect Wiki : "The exact FTL speeds at which starships of the modern galaxy travel are unknown. It is noted, however, that Reapersare believed to be capable of traveling nearly 30 light-years within a
24-hour period, and that this rate is roughly twice wha tCitadel starships are capable of traveling." 
That means travelling at 15 light years in 24 hours, it would take about 6 hours to get to the next system.

Without the relays to ease logistics, its almost a forgone conclusion that the reapers win. With the Mass relays, the galaxy has a chance.

The mass relays mean that the Reapers can move through the galaxy much more quickly. Cut off a region from mass relay traffic and it now takes the Reapers years to get there. The diameter of the milky way is 100 000 ly. Make the Reapers fly a mere 3000 ly and it takes them 300 days to get to a location - if they even know where to go to find you. In 300 days, we'll have a massive fleet.

Again, logistics isn't so much the problem since there are no real borders and supply lines.  The galaxy is so massive, retreating and rebuilding is simple. It all comes down to production capacity.  And since the Reapers can't replicate those tactics (indoctrinated minions soon go all brain dead and the Reapers themselves are unable to effectively procreate), they are doomed.

Of course, we don't HAVE to destroy the relays. We could just move them around to places REALLY inconvenient for a Reaper to jump in. That's assuming they can track the location of the relays with the citadel - which is not a forgone conclusion. If not, we could just move them and the Reapers won't be able to find them.  We can use QC to coordinate their new locations and use them as we need. 

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:00 .

[v TricKy v]

Master Che wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

Laser weapons would have solved everything. Barriers are useless against them. But for some reason no one ever bothered the make them more viable

"LASERS"

But on ships and not on the heads of sharks. Although a Tresher Maw with frikken Lasers on his head would be badass.

[Jayleia]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Come on, people are always saying that one of the main reasons the ending is bad is because there is no option for conventional victory. Meet me halfway here.

Cutscenes seem to indicate that conventional victory is not possible.

In game, however, you can shoot Destroyer-sized ship with a man-portable weapon and take it out.

Codex indicates that you CAN kill Reapers, even if you can't kill enough of them with the ships you have.

[Zero132132]

moater boat wrote...
*snip*

I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.

I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'

[BerzerkGene]

Zero132132 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Because people are stupid. They don't realize that this is exactly what galactic society has been DOING for the entire game, and that we've been getting wrecked. They also don't get that Reapers win one-on-one with any ship that we have, and that there are WAY more of them than there are of us.

People insist it because they hate the ending. That's all there is to it. It's wishful thinking. EXTREMELY wishful thinking.

They've been fighting on their own. United we stand, divided we fall. All that stuff,
There are not more of them than us. Not even close. That would mean there are tens of thousands of them, at the very very least somewhere about 60,000. If they had that kind of firepower then they would win in days or weeks. Not 100 years.
A ship 1 on 1, of course not. But Thanix Cannons drastically change the odds. you would only need a couple Thanix equipped ships for each reaper! One if its like that Volus dreadnought which had 2 dozen thanix cannons.

Winning conventionally makes sense. At great cost, but its doesn't mean its impossible. The Reapers being pushed back at palaven proves they can be beaten, again at great cost.

So what you're saying is, putting all of our ships together, each of which the Reapers can take out with one single shot, is going to be better than the standard hit-and-run tactics that have successfully repelled, in the real world, enemies that are more advanced technologically? You're essentially advocating symmetric warfare against an enemy that, by every realistic standard, is much stronger than us. Even if this isn't your intentional, naval assymetrical warfare generally uses surroundings to their advantage, but space is almost entirely empty, with a few asteroids, planets, and stars in between. There really aren't surroundings to USE to your advantage. A principle is often to use smaller ships, since they're harder to target, but the Reapers are basically aimbots, and their shots seem to travel quickly enough that evading a direct hit is difficult. The sort of weapons capable of actually beating them aren't things we can fit on small ships, either. From the codex entry on Reaper vulnerabilities: "In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts."

It takes four of our most powerful ships to take down one Reaper. This would be fine if they were spread out enough that we could send four or five dreadnoughts after single Reapers, but they usually overwhelm a planet in force. Taking them on one-at-a-time isn't an option.

From the codex.
"The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds.
The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most
fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military and
is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2. "
So...we can put them on FIGHTERS. Dreadnought scaled ones would be scaled up or use many more, resulting in a far more deadly ship. Tactially, using smaller ships would be the most intelligent, because Reaper guns don't really seem that adept at hitting moving targets. I mean during that cutscene, the opening salvo from a reaper completely misses a ship, which is moving painfully slow. Also the moon would make a good surrounding to make use of.

[savionen]

Zero132132 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
*snip*

I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.

I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'

Liara said in ME2 that conventional victory was possible. Go complain about ME2.

[LiarasShield]

Well if we spent most of the time not building the crucible but arming the fleets or every ship with thanix cannons caines and true powerful weapons that do infact hurt or destroy the reapers then really on some super space magic device I do think we could've beaten the reapers but we wasted that chance because we spent so much time building the crucible instead of beefing up our own weapons and defenses