v TricKy v wrote...
But on ships and not on the heads of sharks. Although a Tresher Maw with frikken Lasers on his head would be badass.Master Che wrote...
v TricKy v wrote...
Laser weapons would have solved everything. Barriers are useless against them. But for some reason no one ever bothered the make them more viable
"LASERS"
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
You're pretty much right. Its insanity to build something that you're not even sure what the hell it is, especially when it has a 100% failure rate.LiarasShield wrote...
Well if we spent most of the time not building the crucible but arming the fleets or every ship with thanix cannons caines and true powerful weapons that do infact hurt or destroy the reapers then really on some super space magic device I do think we could've beaten the reapers but we wasted that chance because we spent so much time building the crucible instead of beefing up our own weapons and defenses
Welsh Inferno wrote...
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
Good luck with that.
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
77boy84 wrote...
The narrative of "The reapers are unstoppable, we NEED the crucible!" only existed in ME3.
In the other two games, you were preparing for a conventional war with them. You knew it would be rough, but you also knew that if you could unite EVERYONE and prepare enough, you could win by the skin of your teeth.
It has nothing to do with facts, it has everything to do with how Bioware wanted the story to be told, and they shifted directions at the last minute, so they could ignore build up from the last two games, and make the third game the only one relevant to the trilogy to get "new players"
BerzerkGene wrote...
You're pretty much right. Its insanity to build something that you're not even sure what the hell it is, especially when it has a 100% failure rate.LiarasShield wrote...
Well if we spent most of the time not building the crucible but arming the fleets or every ship with thanix cannons caines and true powerful weapons that do infact hurt or destroy the reapers then really on some super space magic device I do think we could've beaten the reapers but we wasted that chance because we spent so much time building the crucible instead of beefing up our own weapons and defenses
Thannix cannons, proven power. Even without it, there should still be a heckuva lot of them in the fleets.
Welsh Inferno wrote...
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
Good luck with that.
Modifié par pseudonymic, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .
The turian and krogan counterattack on Palaven combined deception,Welsh Inferno wrote...
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
Good luck with that.
pseudonymic wrote...
Welsh Inferno wrote...
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
Good luck with that.
it's as plausible as running up to a beam when laser is being shot at you (which, oddly enough instantly fried you in rannoch if it passed anywhere nearby), and somehow you miraculously survive.
BerzerkGene wrote...
You can't know we don't have the numbers. At least 100 years means there
would be significant forces for an entire century to keep the whole
reaper fleet at bay. That is not a short amount of time.
As for
conventional victories again greater forces, its been done. Far more
than you would think. Human history is littered with them. Granted, it
was ground wars. But the combined military minds of the galaxy should be
able to come up with a plan. a better plan than they did, anyway
If you take out the biggest chunk, at
earth, including harbinger, the rest of them wouldn't pose as much of a
threat because they wouldn't be as massed.
As to how that could be achieved i have already made several points as to how. The main point being thanix cannons.
Which is why flipping the kid off and owning the reapers anyway should have been the ending.. Well, not woning, but at least blowing them the hell up. Would have totally epic if you bea him after he says "SO BE IT" and disappears.. What would he have done then? We kicked the crap out of the bulk of the fleet.Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
BerzerkGene wrote...
You're pretty much right. Its insanity to build something that you're not even sure what the hell it is, especially when it has a 100% failure rate.LiarasShield wrote...
Well if we spent most of the time not building the crucible but arming the fleets or every ship with thanix cannons caines and true powerful weapons that do infact hurt or destroy the reapers then really on some super space magic device I do think we could've beaten the reapers but we wasted that chance because we spent so much time building the crucible instead of beefing up our own weapons and defenses
Thannix cannons, proven power. Even without it, there should still be a heckuva lot of them in the fleets.
The power of plot compelled them. Shepard is the hero, not the fleets. S/he personally has to save the galaxy.
BeastSaver wrote...
77boy84 wrote...
The narrative of "The reapers are unstoppable, we NEED the crucible!" only existed in ME3.
In the other two games, you were preparing for a conventional war with them. You knew it would be rough, but you also knew that if you could unite EVERYONE and prepare enough, you could win by the skin of your teeth.
It has nothing to do with facts, it has everything to do with how Bioware wanted the story to be told, and they shifted directions at the last minute, so they could ignore build up from the last two games, and make the third game the only one relevant to the trilogy to get "new players"
They did NOTHING to prepare for the Reapers in ME 1 and 2. They were too busy being in denial...
BerzerkGene wrote...
From the codex.Zero132132 wrote...
So what you're saying is, putting all of our ships together, each of which the Reapers can take out with one single shot, is going to be better than the standard hit-and-run tactics that have successfully repelled, in the real world, enemies that are more advanced technologically? You're essentially advocating symmetric warfare against an enemy that, by every realistic standard, is much stronger than us. Even if this isn't your intentional, naval assymetrical warfare generally uses surroundings to their advantage, but space is almost entirely empty, with a few asteroids, planets, and stars in between. There really aren't surroundings to USE to your advantage. A principle is often to use smaller ships, since they're harder to target, but the Reapers are basically aimbots, and their shots seem to travel quickly enough that evading a direct hit is difficult. The sort of weapons capable of actually beating them aren't things we can fit on small ships, either. From the codex entry on Reaper vulnerabilities: "In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts."
It takes four of our most powerful ships to take down one Reaper. This would be fine if they were spread out enough that we could send four or five dreadnoughts after single Reapers, but they usually overwhelm a planet in force. Taking them on one-at-a-time isn't an option.
"The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds.
The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most
fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military and
is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2. "
So...we can put them on FIGHTERS. Dreadnought scaled ones would be scaled up or use many more, resulting in a far more deadly ship. Tactially, using smaller ships would be the most intelligent, because Reaper guns don't really seem that adept at hitting moving targets. I mean during that cutscene, the opening salvo from a reaper completely misses a ship, which is moving painfully slow. Also the moon would make a good surrounding to make use of.
savionen wrote...
Zero132132 wrote...
moater boat wrote...
*snip*
I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.
I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'
Liara said in ME2 that conventional victory was possible. Go complain about ME2.
BerzerkGene wrote...
The turian and krogan counterattack on Palaven combined deception,Welsh Inferno wrote...
pseudonymic wrote...
find a way to get inside the reaper ship, and destroy it from the inside.
Good luck with that.
courage, and tenacity. First, the turians leaked a false battle plan
that drew on the same tactics they used at beginning of the assault on
Palaven. Then the dreadnought Indomitable faked a problem with its drive
core, coming out of FTL near Palaven's moon, Menae. Three other
dreadnoughts and their attendant fleets deployed to assist Indomitable, a
tempting target that drew the Reaper capital ships away from Palaven.
Turian troop transports then entered Palaven's atmosphere to release
shuttles, gliders, and individual soldier capsules.The Reapers did not
understand the seriousness of the threat at first--those that detected
the landing crafts sent husks and Collector swarms to intercept them,
but little more. This allowed krogan commandos to link up with Palaven's
resistance and hand off their payloads--warp bombs and fission
weapons.In simultaneous strikes across the globe, Reaper ships began to
explode. Turian resistance members had managed to smuggle the bombs
inside when the Reaper processing ships, troop transports, and even
destroyers and capital ships had opened their structures to
indoctrinated turian leaders.Large swaths of territory fell back into
turian and krogan control. News of the victory gave a much-needed boost
to the morale of the turian resistance and the galactic public.But the
action was not without sacrifice. Turian insurgents gave their lives to
ensure the explosives detonated, and the processing centers they
destroyed were full of civilians who died just as surely as if they had
been harvested. Of the dead, General Minin Resvirix said, "Whatever they
were in life, their deaths had no equal. They are worthy of joining the
spirit of Palaven itself."
Zero132132 wrote...
moater boat wrote...
*snip*
I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.
I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'
moater boat wrote...
Zero132132 wrote...
moater boat wrote...
*snip*
I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.
I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'
First let me address the idea that a succesful war against the Reapers would have to take several decades. While the cycle ending wars normally take a long time, over a century for the Protheans I believe, the reason is because the Reapers are winning, and it takes a long to time scrub the galaxy clean. To say that this means that it would also take several decades to kill all the Reapers is a massive failure of logic. If a conventional victory did happen, and it became obvious to the Reapers that continuing the war would not work, there is no reason to think that they wouldn't retreat into dark space and begin to try and develop some other plan. Fighting to the death, while noble to organics, would be considered very illogical by machines.
Now let's talk about that 180 you claim is required for preparing for the Reapers. My question is what information do you have from ME2 that indicates that preperations are NOT being made? Sure Anderson doesn't flat out tell Shepard "By the way, we are building up a huge fleet because the Citadel battle really lit a fire under our butt." But Shepard is working for Cerberus and he has been dead for 2 years. He has no idea what state the galactic militaries are in. All that he knows is that there are some new weapons, shield, and armor developments that he can put in the Normandy, that alone is pretty strong evidence of the galaxy making a serious effort to increase military strength.
You ask what Shepard would do if the crucible wasn't being built. Just about anything the writers want to write and the players want to do. Things like curing the genophage and making peace between the quarians and the Geth would still be great additions to the story, but I think we can all agree that there was no shortage of mission opportunities in the game that didn't pan out, like all the fetch quests.
The more I participate in these conventional victory threads the clearer this becomes.inko1nsiderate wrote...
I think it is because they haven't actually studied real war. Ever.
The protheans were much more technologically advanced. They even made weird orbs that could somhow compact their own mass. Plus, unlike the protheans, we did not have tons of deep underground research thingies(yes thats the technical word).Goneaviking wrote...
BerzerkGene wrote...
You can't know we don't have the numbers. At least 100 years means there
would be significant forces for an entire century to keep the whole
reaper fleet at bay. That is not a short amount of time.
As for
conventional victories again greater forces, its been done. Far more
than you would think. Human history is littered with them. Granted, it
was ground wars. But the combined military minds of the galaxy should be
able to come up with a plan. a better plan than they did, anyway
If you take out the biggest chunk, at
earth, including harbinger, the rest of them wouldn't pose as much of a
threat because they wouldn't be as massed.
As to how that could be achieved i have already made several points as to how. The main point being thanix cannons.
I believe you are mistaken. It would take at least a century, but probably more, because they have a lot of ground to cover; not because they would be fighting for every inch. It took centuries to eradicate the protheans, and that was after they decapitated their empire with their opening move. The process requires visting every system, scanning every planet and asteroid field and then doubling back later on to make sure they didn't miss anyone who had been hidden on the first sweep. The reapers are nothing if not thorough and they have all the time in the world.
Even if it were conceded that the reapers could be defeated without a magical superweapon from a dozen or more cycles past, the reapers remain too powerful for a conventional victory. Whatever devious strategies and organisational brilliance the defenders used to pull off the win with most of their richest and most productive worlds/colonies/facilities already lost would be so far away from standard doctrine that it could never be considered conventional.
Given the complete failure of the allied armada to put a dent in the reapers surrounding Earth decapitation strikes don't seem like a viable strategy on our side. The organic forces could hope to take out lone reapers, or small groups, realistically but it wouldn't take long for the reapers to figure out what was happening and start to travel in bigger groups. They had access to the Citadel by the time we returned to Earth, if they were making an effort to shutting down the relay network they would have succeeded at some point in undoing the protheans work and then we'd be sitting ducks trapped in our own individual systems with no meaningful ability to coordinate or bring reinforcements.
BeastSaver wrote...
They did NOTHING to prepare for the Reapers in ME 1 and 2. They were too busy being in denial...
To add to this, the Reapers didn't have to be an unlimited force of space chtulus. Had they simply built off the idea that seizing the Citadel was a vital part of the Reaper strategy, they could have easily written the Reapers as being a force that, while individually very powerful for divided sections of the galaxy, were at a disadvantage against a united galactic armada. The Reaper numbers being limited also gains credibility when we find out in ME2 that only the rarest of species become Reapers.moater boat wrote...
Zero132132 wrote...
moater boat wrote...
*snip*
I could go on, but there are already plenty of threads with dozens of other ideas that I haven't mentioned. The fact of the matter is that if the ME3 writers had written ME3 to allow for a conventional victory, no one would be complaining that it shouldn't have been possible. So yes, a conventional victory would have been possible if the writers had decided that it was the route they were going to take.
I would have, if the Reapers were actually defeated in Shepard's lifetime. That would have been stupid as hell. If the game was a setup for a really long war, I might have bought it, but only if everyone did a complete 180 as soon as ME2 ended and started preparing every single ship in the galaxy for war against the Reapers. That's the only way it wouldn't stretch credibility, and in that case, what exactly are you giving Shepard to DO during the game? What's his role in the plot? Discovering other ancient weapons that are more powerful? Wouldn't have minded going back to the planet that the derelict reaper (and the moon Major Kyle was on) and finding some trace of the weapon they used to take down one Reaper, since it was strong enough to **** up the planet, but a victory within the span of one game wouldn't make any sense without some variant of 'space magic.'
First let me address the idea that a succesful war against the Reapers would have to take several decades. While the cycle ending wars normally take a long time, over a century for the Protheans I believe, the reason is because the Reapers are winning, and it takes a long to time scrub the galaxy clean. To say that this means that it would also take several decades to kill all the Reapers is a massive failure of logic. If a conventional victory did happen, and it became obvious to the Reapers that continuing the war would not work, there is no reason to think that they wouldn't retreat into dark space and begin to try and develop some other plan. Fighting to the death, while noble to organics, would be considered very illogical by machines.
Now let's talk about that 180 you claim is required for preparing for the Reapers. My question is what information do you have from ME2 that indicates that preperations are NOT being made? Sure Anderson doesn't flat out tell Shepard "By the way, we are building up a huge fleet because the Citadel battle really lit a fire under our butt." But Shepard is working for Cerberus and he has been dead for 2 years. He has no idea what state the galactic militaries are in. All that he knows is that there are some new weapons, shield, and armor developments that he can put in the Normandy, that alone is pretty strong evidence of the galaxy making a serious effort to increase military strength.
You ask what Shepard would do if the crucible wasn't being built. Just about anything the writers want to write and the players want to do. Things like curing the genophage and making peace between the quarians and the Geth would still be great additions to the story, but I think we can all agree that there was no shortage of mission opportunities in the game that didn't pan out, like all the fetch quests.
moater boat wrote...
BeastSaver wrote...
They did NOTHING to prepare for the Reapers in ME 1 and 2. They were too busy being in denial...
We have no idea what preparations were made since the end of ME1 because Shepard was not involved with the galactic community. The only thing we do know is that during that time new weapons, new armor, and new shields were developed. If anything, it indicates that efforts WERE being made to prepare for a possible reaper attack.
Retour en haut