22 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

 The Mass Effect series seems to remember every single little detail of every single quest you complete. There are people in ME3 who remember you from some extremely minor quest in ME1, and react based on how you completed that quest.

As near as I can tell, the Dragon Age series does not remember nearly as well. Or is it simply that DA2 did not actually reference any of those decisions?

What I want to know is, how will this be handled in DA3? Let me give an example. Let's say that in DA1, in the Brecillian Forest, you united Cammen and Gheyna through simple persuasion. DA2, as near as I can tell, makes no reference at all to that decision. Which is fine, you can't have every little thing pop up like that. I get that.

But, is that information even stored in my DA2 save? What if DA3 wants to reference that decision? The way I see it, there's three possiblities:

1 - Every single flag of every single quest is imported from DA1 to DA2, but most of them are simply not used.

2 - Many of the flags are not imported at all. DA3 will simply not reference these decisions.

3 - Many of the flags are not imported at all.  DA3 will ask you to import a DA1 save AND a DA2 save, to get all the flags that may be relevant.

I ask, because I am working on a "perfect" playthrough of DA1 before importing to DA2. But let's say I forgot to do a side quest (for example, the one above). In Mass Effect, you can be virtually guaranteed that missing a side quest will mean that in a future ME game, you are going to miss the follow up side quest. Will the same apply to DA3?

On my "perfect" playthrough, should I make sure I do every single sidequest, or can I just focus on the big decisions that are reflected in the "Plot Summary" import screen in DA2? Does anyone know if the minor flags from DA1 are stored in your DA2 save?

[EricHVela]

Personally, I'm to the point where I don't want to import plot stuff from previous games unless it's the same character and/or the same location.

Unless the next Dragon Age takes place in the Free Marches or Ferelden or uses Hawke or the Warden (Commander), I see little point in importing that stuff anyway. We'd end up with cameos that don't matter at all.

[Darth Death]

Maclimes wrote...

 The Mass Effect series seems to remember every single little detail of every single quest you complete. There are people in ME3 who remember you from some extremely minor quest in ME1, and react based on how you completed that quest.

I don't think we played the same game....

[Fast Jimmy]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Personally, I'm to the point where I don't want to import plot stuff from previous games unless it's the same character and/or the same location.

Unless the next Dragon Age takes place in the Free Marches or Ferelden or uses Hawke or the Warden (Commander), I see little point in importing that stuff anyway. We'd end up with cameos that don't matter at all.

I'll say this until I'm blue in the face, but I agree. No import flags. Have Bioware picks the events that happened and let them write a story based off that. 

The sooner, the better. We run the risk of DA3 being watered down cameos and bad references rather than truly allowing the plots brought up earlier to be taken to the next step. 

OGB - needs a real follow up, not a side quest or cameo. 

The Architect - needs a real follow up, not a side quest or cameo. 

How Leliana is alive - needs a real follow up, not a side quest or a cameo. 

If the Warden went with Morriga or killed her - needs areal follow up, not a side quest or a cameo. 

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
<snip>

I agree in principle, but some of the things you mentioned do not exist for all players - for example, not everyone killed Leliana or did the DR.  In order to tie those things into a neat little bow, they would first have to establish canon.

Kind of like.... establishing canon by first establishing canon.

[Maclimes]

So... no one knows what flags are imported from DA1 to DA2? Got it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
<snip>

I agree in principle, but some of the things you mentioned do not exist for all players - for example, not everyone killed Leliana or did the DR.  In order to tie those things into a neat little bow, they would first have to establish canon.

Kind of like.... establishing canon by first establishing canon.

Exactly. No import flags = Bioware saying if the DR happened or not, or of Lelia a was killed by the Warden or not, or if the Adchitect is still alive or not. Or who the ruler of Ferelden and the dwarves is. Or if the Dwarves have the ability to fashion armies of iron golems or not. Or if you spared Flemeth, or killed her. Or if you did a myriad of other things. 

Bioware would say 'this happened, that happened, but not that happened.' that's what establishing canon means. No import flags means no prior game choices - period. Any choice previously presented would be made by Bioware depending on if it lets them tell a better story or not. Like every other game on the market. 

[Pasquale1234]

^^ Works for me, but I can see some reasons why BioWare might not be interested. There's something to be said for dangling threads and cliffhangers in that they can engender lively debate in the forums and help to sustain interest during the dead times between games.

I'd be pretty happy with self-contained individual games where consequences are immediate.

[Maclimes]

Personally, I'd prefer if smaller things carried over from game to game, but larger things were self-contained.

But that would require foresight on the part of the writers. For example, at the end of DA2, there's no way to prevent XXXX event from happening, but you can decide which side of the coin Hawke landed on.

In the grand scheme of things, as of DA3, the event happened, and the plot can be written with that in mind. But for minor dialogue, people could off-handedly mention something like, "Yeah, and can you believe the Champion of Kirkwall actually sided with/opposed Group A/Group B?" It lets your choices feel like they carried over, while maintaining a coherent over-arching story.

[Fast Jimmy]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

^^ Works for me, but I can see some reasons why BioWare might not be interested. There's something to be said for dangling threads and cliffhangers in that they can engender lively debate in the forums and help to sustain interest during the dead times between games.

I'd be pretty happy with self-contained individual games where consequences are immediate.

You could still have plenty of cliff hangers. For instance, in my playthrough, the Architect is still alive, Morrigan has the OGB and the world is on the brink of war between the Templars and the Mages.

Nothing about removing plot flags would be diminished in regards to having multiple threads. You'd still be wondering what the Architect is up to (since he has been behind the scenes for nearly the entire Dragon Age), you'd still not know what Morrigan's plans are for the OGB, or her trip to the Eluvian, and you'd still be wondering what side you are going to take in the upcoming Mage/Templar war. 

All good threads, all good storylines and all good things that can have major stories built around... if Bioware puts down the bag of hammers they are carrying with the plot choices of not doing the DR and killing the Architect. Amongst about three dozen other choices.

A choice where both outcomes have to be accounted for in a future game is a choice that will result in a weak outcome. It is impossible to have two radically divergent stories from what could have happened in a game (or, in the case of DA:O, TWO games) in the past. So it immediately reduces the impact to EVERY CHOICE in the entire franchise to nothing.

Why were people upset about the Rachni in ME3? Because we were promised drastically different outcomes because of it... and then Bioware realized there was no earthly way to provide that.

The DA team will learn that as well. I was just hoping it would be before DA3, but it does not appear to be the case. The OGB outcry will make the Rachni complaints seem a whimper. The king of the dwarves and the ruler of Ferelden choices essentially forbid them from ever involving the royal families in any game ever again (except as a short cameo). 

The options? A) Reduce the number of choices down to near-zilch. If nothing impacts the world and you are set on the same path regardless, then there are far less choices to manage in the future. See: DA2
Remove import flags, take the flak from fans like ripping off a band-aid, then make games with TONS of choice that you can address in game and at the endings without having to worry about "how will we ever manage all of these changes in DA4, 5 and 6?!" 
C) I suppose this a choice of sorts, but it is outlandish. Fully attend to and handle each choice with all the detail a fan could ever want. Think Tuchanka ON STEROIDS. Keep on offering those complex choices in each game. And then charge $75 for DA3. Then charge $100 for DA4. Then charge $125 for DA5, etc.  Because you are making more and more games, essentially; managing multiple flows and storylines, creating environments, quests and unique conversations, you should CHARGE for more than one game.

As I said, option C is outlandish and would never be attempted by Bioware even if it could, possibly, work. I mean, Bioware fans DO spend money on DLC for an hour long quest. There may be a market to spend $25-50 more a game if it was truly unique and could require a whole different playthrough of the series to see major changes in the game... but let's be serious.

Option A is the only sustainable option. Option B will only disillusion fans. Which is suicide, since a large part of Bioware's appeal is the illusion of choice they maintain.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maclimes wrote...

Personally, I'd prefer if smaller things carried over from game to game, but larger things were self-contained.

But that would require foresight on the part of the writers. For example, at the end of DA2, there's no way to prevent XXXX event from happening, but you can decide which side of the coin Hawke landed on.

In the grand scheme of things, as of DA3, the event happened, and the plot can be written with that in mind. But for minor dialogue, people could off-handedly mention something like, "Yeah, and can you believe the Champion of Kirkwall actually sided with/opposed Group A/Group B?" It lets your choices feel like they carried over, while maintaining a coherent over-arching story.

Yet one of the biggest complaints about DA2, aside from gameplay issues like combat, the dialogue wheel or re-used environments, is that they never give you any real choices. You HAVE to do Quest X. You HAVE to recruit person Y. You HAVE to help NPC Z, despite the fact that your character, personally, despises everything about NPC Z.

If that's the future of the DA franchise, then they will find they don't have a franchise to make games for anymore. Another DA2 coming out will be the death of the Dragon Age IP.

[DarkDragon777]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


How Leliana is alive - needs a real follow up, not a side quest or a cameo. 

She'll just say, 'I was supposed to be dead", or ,"I faked my death", like every other character.

[berelinde]

I'd rather have an "import generator" be part of the character creation process for those who want it. It would avoid the whole broken flags issue and allow players to "import" their saves across different platforms or regenerate saves from lost games (i.e. catastrophic hard drive failure taking out all the saves).

If you're familiar with the Gibbed's save-game generator, you know what I mean.

[Maclimes]

Gibbed's has a fair number of bugs, though. A few problem flags. And it doesn't have flags for EVERYTHING. Just the major points.

I'd like to see an official, Bioware-released, Import Generator. It would only allow you to make decisions in DLC or Expansions you own, and would allow you to make every decision in the game that has any noticable impact. (Even small things, like the Cammen and Gheyna thing mentioned in the OP). Why? Because I like to think those things will matter one day...

[Maclimes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet one of the biggest complaints about DA2, aside from gameplay issues like combat, the dialogue wheel or re-used environments, is that they never give you any real choices. You HAVE to do Quest X. You HAVE to recruit person Y. You HAVE to help NPC Z, despite the fact that your character, personally, despises everything about NPC Z.

If that's the future of the DA franchise, then they will find they don't have a franchise to make games for anymore. Another DA2 coming out will be the death of the Dragon Age IP.

A fair point. I'm not sure how you handle it, then.

Let's assume, for a second, that they want to make the Old God Baby relevant in a future game, in which the new protagonist has to protect the OGB from evil kidnappers or some such. How would they do that? In an import in which the player chose not to perform the Dark Ritual, how do you handle it?

* Do you write a few lines that make it so that Morrigan found some other way to siphon out the Old God? If you do, it invalidates the player's choice completely, making it meaningless.
* Do you handwave it, and just make it so that no matter what, it's canon that the Dark Ritual was completed? If so, same problem.
* Do the writers just have to say, "Well, any plot point that relies on any decision made can't be used."? That also makes the decision meaningless, since it's completely irrelevant.
* Do you write two full versions of the quest or plot, with completely different dialogue, characters, and events? If so, you're using up resources that could have been used to make a longer, more in-depth, more fulfilling game.
* Is there an option I missed?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I don't see where the happy medium is for allowing the player to make world-changing decisions, and then somehow write the sequel to compensate for all of them.

EDIT: Or to put it another way, if DA3 is about the war between the mages and the templars, but you're allowed to prevent that war in DA2, then what the heck is DA3 about?

Modifié par Maclimes, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^
You DID miss an option. Scrap the import flags. Scrap carrying over choices from game to game. Say 'this is the world DA3 is going to take place in.' It may not be the world some (or even the majority of) players have chosen, but it is the world Bioware chooses to tell the best story.

That is the only real option. You can't create relevant content on a scale deserving of those choices. So you either diminish the choice's impact in future games, or you remove most choices altogether. Neither of those alternatives will keep fans happy and keep them buying games.

The only option is to scrap carrying over choices. No import flags, decide canon after every game. That way, you can offer the choice of pickin kings, or killing characters, or even just saying 'no.' The impact of these choices are felt in game and at the ending of the game, a la Origins, and that is the end of some choices.

The Fallout games do this amazingly. Dragon Age does choice better, but it can't manage going from game to game, not anymore. I repeat - completely unsustainable.

[Pzykozis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
You DID miss an option. Scrap the import flags. Scrap carrying over choices from game to game. Say 'this is the world DA3 is going to take place in.' It may not be the world some (or even the majority of) players have chosen, but it is the world Bioware chooses to tell the best story.

That is the only real option. You can't create relevant content on a scale deserving of those choices. So you either diminish the choice's impact in future games, or you remove most choices altogether. Neither of those alternatives will keep fans happy and keep them buying games.

The only option is to scrap carrying over choices. No import flags, decide canon after every game. That way, you can offer the choice of pickin kings, or killing characters, or even just saying 'no.' The impact of these choices are felt in game and at the ending of the game, a la Origins, and that is the end of some choices.

The Fallout games do this amazingly. Dragon Age does choice better, but it can't manage going from game to game, not anymore. I repeat - completely unsustainable.

At this point short term wise, that'd be a disaster. simply because the series has been set up in such a way, long term I'd agree, wrap up a lot of the hanging threads that could do with sorting out sometime soon, and then do a bit of a shift to a less continuous phase, either that or just do choice better doesn't really matter if I helped a guy or killed a guy the world is big enough that you don't have to see anyone twice in your life, so instead you keep personal choice but don't really track them forward because they're minor and effectively pointless in the long run and then have very few but meaningful narrative choices that get carried forward, think of TW2 tbh the choice of Iorveth or Roche is meaningless really, but its a massive personal choice narrative wise though it barely affects anything the same core events happen, though you do get to decide the fate of some important people which are more narrative defining choices but even most of them in TW2's case can easily be just a few overheard lines of conversation because if you're not in the land owned by those people then it's not really going to affect you.

[Fast Jimmy]

^
The example of the Witcher 2 is a perfect example of how this COULD NOT work with the DA games.

If it is a choice in game, like TW2, it's doable. But with import flags? You're talking about making two VERY different game experiences for a choice made in two games ago.

Also, this is an example of ONE big choice. I can name off about four off the top of my head that would require this level of custom creation. Even if they did take this level of customization, what about choices in DA3? Do you think TW2 would have that same level of detail in the one choice if they had to also do the same level of care for TW1 choices as well?

The answer is no. TW2 gave you ONE big choice and ran with it. The Dragon Age series gives you LOTS of big choices, but only gives you superficial impact of them.

[berelinde]

Maclimes wrote...

Gibbed's has a fair number of bugs, though. A few problem flags. And it doesn't have flags for EVERYTHING. Just the major points.

I'd like to see an official, Bioware-released, Import Generator. It would only allow you to make decisions in DLC or Expansions you own, and would allow you to make every decision in the game that has any noticable impact. (Even small things, like the Cammen and Gheyna thing mentioned in the OP). Why? Because I like to think those things will matter one day...

Absolutely. We seem to be on a similar wavelength. I would like it to be a part of the game itself, not a third-party add-on, and I would like it to cover any area that might require an import flag down the road.

A year or so ago, I had a hideous virus infect my computer and the only thing I could do to rescue it was to wipe the entire drive. Unfortunately, I neglected to back up my saves. I know, my fault, but I can't be the only person would would appreciate not having to replay two games several times apiece to obtain some workable saves.

[Silas7]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Personally, I'm to the point where I don't want to import plot stuff from previous games unless it's the same character and/or the same location.

Unless the next Dragon Age takes place in the Free Marches or Ferelden or uses Hawke or the Warden (Commander), I see little point in importing that stuff anyway. We'd end up with cameos that don't matter at all.

This says it all; To the OP Mass effect did it right because we have a consistent PC where DA2 just cherry picked a few game mechanics to test them out like voiced protaganist and the dialogue wheel.

[Maclimes]

I disagree completely. Unlike Mass Effect, which is the story of a single hero, Dragon Age is the story of an entire world.

Which, in my view, makes the importing even more important. If the protagonist is the world, then we need to feel the changes we made to the world carry over. Just as you need to feel that your decisions about Shepard mattered in ME, we need to feel that our decisions about Thedas mattered in DA.

I want to see dwarves in DA3 hail from house Orta, because my Warden proved their lineage as a noble house. I want to see Oghren's son as a proud warrior, because my Warden Commander convinced Oghren to be a good father. I want to see Carver leading a charge of Grey Wardens, because my Champion forced him into the order. We need to feel the impact of our heroes on the world. You can do that without having just one continuous protagonist.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

Maclimes wrote...

I disagree completely. Unlike Mass Effect, which is the story of a single hero, Dragon Age is the story of an entire world.

Which, in my view, makes the importing even more important. If the protagonist is the world, then we need to feel the changes we made to the world carry over. Just as you need to feel that your decisions about Shepard mattered in ME, we need to feel that our decisions about Thedas mattered in DA.

I want to see dwarves in DA3 hail from house Orta, because my Warden proved their lineage as a noble house. I want to see Oghren's son as a proud warrior, because my Warden Commander convinced Oghren to be a good father. I want to see Carver leading a charge of Grey Wardens, because my Champion forced him into the order. We need to feel the impact of our heroes on the world. You can do that without having just one continuous protagonist.

Exactly this. I also personally want at least a reference in dialogue to each origin if your warden had it, only if just a sentence or two. (Not just human mage and Dalish Elf Please? Although human mage and dalish  are two of my canon wardens, so not to leave them out either.)

Examples:

Human Mage : Something about how the warden and the champion of kirwall are related.

Dwarf Commoner: The warden, Paragon Brosca, was originally a casteless in dustown, nobody could have imagined they'd be the legendary hero of Ferelden. (Said by a dwarven companion?)

City Elf: If an elf from the denerim alienage could rise up to become the Hero of Ferelden, maybe I can do some good in this world too! (Something an elf companion might say.)

...And other phrases that refer to House Aeducan's new paragon (Dwarf Noble), Mahariel (Dalish) and the fate of their clan and whether they are pursuing Hawke because of it, and Cousland's fate (Queen/Prince Consort, or just as Warden Commander). Oh and Surana should have some sort of mention too. Like perhaps the Warden Commander was an elven mage and how they've been helping their fellows escape purges that have been made by the templars in the alienages.

I suppose it might be a bit much, but ideally that would be just as important as romantic connections for the warden and Hawke.

[berelinde]

Maclimes, you speak for me, as well.