86 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Obadiah wrote...

I think Blood Magic is like the Dark Side of the Force (in the KotOR games). It's not inherently evil, but using it leads you down a path towards evil.

Look a Jowan - he's certainly not evil. Yet using Blood Magic put him on a path to send the love of his life to a mage prison, then poison Eamon and, in my first playthrough, kill most of the town of Redcliffe. And he did it all with the best of intentions!!!

I think it's kind of like modern day illicit narcotics.

People have the right to ruin their lives however they choose. Alcohol, pot, heroin, whatever their not drugging anyone else so the analogy doesnt really stand

[Adria Teksuni]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

A lot of organized religions are opposed to anything being done to the dead, as it's considered a desecration of a holy vessel, i.e. the form made in their god's image and the former container of the soul.  I didn't think it such a stretch to believe the Chantry would feel the same way. 

The Chantry burns its dead.

All the more reason to think that the Chantry might not approve of necromantic type spells. 

I'm not saying the Chantry is right or wrong or that Blood Magic is evil or not, I'm just giving how I've interpreted it in the game and expounding on another post or two. 

[druidofwarp]

Obadiah wrote...

I think Blood Magic is like the Dark Side of the Force (in the KotOR games). It's not inherently evil, but using it leads you down a path towards evil.

Look a Jowan - he's certainly not evil. Yet using Blood Magic put him on a path to send the love of his life to a mage prison, then poison Eamon and, in my first playthrough, kill most of the town of Redcliffe. And he did it all with the best of intentions!!!

I think it's kind of like modern day illicit narcotics.

Alot of that was put in motion by Greagoir's heavy-handed policies, had Irving been allowed to show leniency things might have been very different. Then again things might be very different if he didn't practice blood magic

However that opens up another topic of whether or not the mages should be so closely supervised, but going into that would be hijacking this thread which is against the rules right?

[The Capital Gaultier]

There is nothing inherently evil about Blood Magic. Some recurring counterpoints:



#1: You can only learn it from demons.



Rebuttal: Not in DA:O. For whatever reason, you can learn it without resorting to demon bargaining.



#2: It allows you to control people.



Rebuttal: ...but only in a rudimentary fashion. In DA:O, you can control how they move and act, but not how they speak or think. Perhaps these are intended elements of Blood Magic, but not so in DA:O.



#3: Historically, mages have used other living beings to fuel Blood Magic.



Rebuttal: Very true. The Tevinter used to (still do, apparently) keep slaves on hand to fuel their Blood Magic. However, in DA:O, the only force that you use is the life force of your own self to fuel your own Blood Magic.

[Baalzie]

AntiChri5 wrote...


People have the right to ruin their lives however they choose. Alcohol, pot, heroin, whatever their not drugging anyone else so the analogy doesnt really stand

I hope You don't say using Illicit drugs don't hurt anyone but yourself?
Drugdealers tend to bring hell to the areas they operate in, so supporting Your local druglords is kinda the "evil" path in most minds...

[AntiChri5]

Baalzie wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...


People have the right to ruin their lives however they choose. Alcohol, pot, heroin, whatever their not drugging anyone else so the analogy doesnt really stand

I hope You don't say using Illicit drugs don't hurt anyone but yourself?
Drugdealers tend to bring hell to the areas they operate in, so supporting Your local druglords is kinda the "evil" path in most minds...

Strictly regulated but legal drugs would completely destroy their business. Not to mention be a hell of a lot safer for those stupid enough to buy them :innocent:

[Baalzie]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

There is nothing inherently evil about Blood Magic. Some recurring counterpoints:

#1: You can only learn it from demons.

Rebuttal: Not in DA:O. For whatever reason, you can learn it without resorting to demon bargaining.

#2: It allows you to control people.

Rebuttal: ...but only in a rudimentary fashion. In DA:O, you can control how they move and act, but not how they speak or think. Perhaps these are intended elements of Blood Magic, but not so in DA:O.

#3: Historically, mages have used other living beings to fuel Blood Magic.

Rebuttal: Very true. The Tevinter used to (still do, apparently) keep slaves on hand to fuel their Blood Magic. However, in DA:O, the only force that you use is the life force of your own self to fuel your own Blood Magic.

#1 Nor re-rebuttal You are correct, someone didn't quite get the difference between "Teaching man bloodmagic" and "teaching any man nowadays bloodmagic"

#2 Re-Rebuttal: YES in DA:O Just not BY YOU! But it's stated everywhere how exact this mindcontrol is, not at ALL rudimentary... Just as shapeshifters CAN become dragons, YOU? A spider....  Don't say it isn't true because YOU can't do it...

#3 Re-rebuttal: Well more or less the same, YOU can't but others definitely can... And DOES it too inside the tower for instance, and the Tevinter mage offers it INGAME, so yes in DA:O But not YOU!

[Adria Teksuni]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Strictly regulated but legal drugs would completely destroy their business. Not to mention be a hell of a lot safer for those stupid enough to buy them :innocent:

Uh...

A LOT of the drugs available on the black market today ARE legal and ARE "strictly regulated".  Hydrocodone, Oxycontin, Dilaudid, and morphine are all quite legal.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

The point being, when someone uses Blood Magic, a sacrifice of some sort is required.  The more powerful the magic, the more the sacrifice.  Additionally, high level practitioners run the risk of letting loose abominations.  Not something the Chantry is likely to condone.

[druidofwarp]

Ummm *Spoiler* you do realize the only way to learn the blood mage specialization is from the demon possessing Connor in Redcliffe in the Fade?



Sure you can just reload and have it without learning from demons but thats a blatantly cheap way to keep your argument standing

[The Capital Gaultier]

druidofwarp wrote...

Ummm *Spoiler* you do realize the only way to learn the blood mage specialization is from the demon possessing Connor in Redcliffe in the Fade?

Sure you can just reload and have it without learning from demons but thats a blatantly cheap way to keep your argument standing

And yet, it's how it works in the game.  Fact is better than opinion.

[druidofwarp]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

druidofwarp wrote...

Ummm *Spoiler* you do realize the only way to learn the blood mage specialization is from the demon possessing Connor in Redcliffe in the Fade?

Sure you can just reload and have it without learning from demons but thats a blatantly cheap way to keep your argument standing

And yet, it's how it works in the game.  Fact is better than opinion.

It still doesn't change the statement that it is learned from demons, gameplay often conflicts with lore. Darkspawn bites which are supposed to kill you by disease within days dont affect the non-Grey Warden party members, but it doesnt stop all other people from dying for that same reason in David Gaider's books

[The Capital Gaultier]

druidofwarp wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

druidofwarp wrote...

Ummm *Spoiler* you do realize the only way to learn the blood mage specialization is from the demon possessing Connor in Redcliffe in the Fade?

Sure you can just reload and have it without learning from demons but thats a blatantly cheap way to keep your argument standing

And yet, it's how it works in the game.  Fact is better than opinion.

It still doesn't change the statement that it is learned from demons, gameplay often conflicts with lore. Darkspawn bites which are supposed to kill you by disease within days dont affect the non-Grey Warden party members, but it doesnt stop all other people from dying for that same reason in David Gaider's books

You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[druidofwarp]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

I dont even have to reference the books ive only read like 60 pages of one of them so far. You often hear how darkspawn taint kill everything pretty fast (Dalish Origin/ Mabari Houndmaster in Ostagar) yet your non-Grey Warden companions are immune to it. Just because it doesn't fit in perfectly with the gameplay doesn't mean it isn't canon by lore standards.

[cutieyum]

To me the Chantry is no different than Blood Mages, the Circle or any other nation, they all want power, limits on other's power and the elevation of their leaders above the rest of humans, elves or dwarves. Just as Blood Magic can be used for good, so can Templars be used for evil, it's not intentions that matter, but how one conducts oneself and take responsibility for one's actions. I am sure that ethical Blood magic is possible.

[andysdead]

haven't read nearly all of it but:



a) it's not "necromancy" per se, it's just using telekinesis to cause a corpse or skeleton to get up and move as if it were alive. when you're done concentrating on it, it just falls apart as normal.



blood magic isn't JUST about hurting onesself. you can also use the blood of others for it, and you can also use others' blood to control them, which is why the Chantry deems it evil, as the Prophet Andraste said that magic should be used to serve man, not rule over him.

[Baalzie]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

You DO have to learn it from a demon.... Reinstall Your game and get Bloodmage without ever have anyone make that choice...
If it doesn't work, You are wrong... According to Your own logic *which is silly and actually not logic at all*

They implemented that to make it possible to make different choices to unlock said specializations and still see Your chosen parts of the game instead of having to make the same choices every single time...

But gamewise You actually need to learn it from a demon... It's like saying You can't die in this game... Or even get hurt... Just reload... Until You get everyone Iced enough every fight... Your logic says You never get hurt at all, since You CAN avoid it by reloading...

Such ways of trying to be right when utterly wrong is just annoying and frankly quite sad...

[ReubenLiew]

Jowan didn't learn it from demons, he learned it from a book.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Baalzie wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

You DO have to learn it from a demon.... Reinstall Your game and get Bloodmage without ever have anyone make that choice...
If it doesn't work, You are wrong... According to Your own logic *which is silly and actually not logic at all*

They implemented that to make it possible to make different choices to unlock said specializations and still see Your chosen parts of the game instead of having to make the same choices every single time...

But gamewise You actually need to learn it from a demon... It's like saying You can't die in this game... Or even get hurt... Just reload... Until You get everyone Iced enough every fight... Your logic says You never get hurt at all, since You CAN avoid it by reloading...

Such ways of trying to be right when utterly wrong is just annoying and frankly quite sad...

I've played a character who never had to talk to a demon to learn Blood Magic.  By the way the game works, you do not have to barter with demons to learn it.

And no, what is possible has nothing to do with what must be true.  Re-read sentences if you need to clarify their meaning in your own mind.  But what does dying have to do with it?  Unless you sacrifice yourself to the Archdemon or kill a party member, you cannot die and complete the game.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 16 décembre 2009 - 03:32 .

[druidofwarp]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

You DO have to learn it from a demon.... Reinstall Your game and get Bloodmage without ever have anyone make that choice...
If it doesn't work, You are wrong... According to Your own logic *which is silly and actually not logic at all*

They implemented that to make it possible to make different choices to unlock said specializations and still see Your chosen parts of the game instead of having to make the same choices every single time...

But gamewise You actually need to learn it from a demon... It's like saying You can't die in this game... Or even get hurt... Just reload... Until You get everyone Iced enough every fight... Your logic says You never get hurt at all, since You CAN avoid it by reloading...

Such ways of trying to be right when utterly wrong is just annoying and frankly quite sad...

I've played a character who never had to talk to a demon to learn Blood Magic.  By the way the game works, you do not have to barter with demons to learn it.

And no, what is possible has nothing to do with what must be true.  Re-read sentences if you need to clarify their meaning in your own mind.  But what does dying have to do with it?  Unless you sacrifice yourself to the Archdemon or kill a party member, you cannot die and complete the game.

OK the fact is Bioware never actually told us how progressing into new abilities works, do you learn it from reading your codex, or are you simply slowing unlocking your potential.

But the idea that the happenings of game-play mechanics can define the lore of this game is a hilariously foolish stance to take for so many reasons. Any argument attempting to use game-play mechanics to argue lore fails from the second said argument is formulated.

And maybe Jowan did learn from a demon like all the other Circle rebels?

[The Capital Gaultier]

druidofwarp wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You don't learn it from anything.  You level up and it's available.  Presumably, it's for the same reason that you can learn spells from the main schools of magic.

And I'm not in this for a discussion of the books.  They have their place, but this is a discussion of the game.  Besides, I haven't read them.

You DO have to learn it from a demon.... Reinstall Your game and get Bloodmage without ever have anyone make that choice...
If it doesn't work, You are wrong... According to Your own logic *which is silly and actually not logic at all*

They implemented that to make it possible to make different choices to unlock said specializations and still see Your chosen parts of the game instead of having to make the same choices every single time...

But gamewise You actually need to learn it from a demon... It's like saying You can't die in this game... Or even get hurt... Just reload... Until You get everyone Iced enough every fight... Your logic says You never get hurt at all, since You CAN avoid it by reloading...

Such ways of trying to be right when utterly wrong is just annoying and frankly quite sad...

I've played a character who never had to talk to a demon to learn Blood Magic.  By the way the game works, you do not have to barter with demons to learn it.

And no, what is possible has nothing to do with what must be true.  Re-read sentences if you need to clarify their meaning in your own mind.  But what does dying have to do with it?  Unless you sacrifice yourself to the Archdemon or kill a party member, you cannot die and complete the game.

OK the fact is Bioware never actually told us how progressing into new abilities works, do you learn it from reading your codex, or are you simply slowing unlocking your potential.

But the idea that the happenings of game-play mechanics can define the lore of this game is a hilariously foolish stance to take for so many reasons. Any argument attempting to use game-play mechanics to argue lore fails from the second said argument is formulated.

And maybe Jowan did learn from a demon like all the other Circle rebels?

It is far better to argue from experience than to argue from how things should work according to abstract information.  The information is not there, but the experience was crafted in a particular way.  If the experience is misinformative, it is not the fault of the player.

[druidofwarp]

Some of the information is there however it is concrete, and the experience i.e. game-play often conflicts with it. Therefore this brings into question the very validity of using this experience to define lore when it often conflicts with it.

[The Capital Gaultier]

druidofwarp wrote...

Some of the information is there however it is concrete, and the experience i.e. game-play often conflicts with it. Therefore this brings into question the very validity of using this experience to define lore when it often conflicts with it.

This is not a case of that.  Experience tells you that you can learn Blood Magic without speaking to a demon.  The lore reinforces that.

[druidofwarp]

The statement i questioned was not whether you could only learn blood magic from demons. You stated earlier that you did not need to learn blood magic from demons within DA:O (assuming you speak strictly about the PC learning blood magic) I was arguing you did. Now perhaps you could consider that you reach level 7 and it happens you magically learn it, but i feel Bioware intended you to learn it from a demon. I could however be wrong.



I was also arguing that gameplay can never be used reliably as evidence for really anything even just as extra supports

[The Capital Gaultier]

druidofwarp wrote...

The statement i questioned was not whether you could only learn blood magic from demons. You stated earlier that you did not need to learn blood magic from demons within DA:O (assuming you speak strictly about the PC learning blood magic) I was arguing you did. Now perhaps you could consider that you reach level 7 and it happens you magically learn it, but i feel Bioware intended you to learn it from a demon. I could however be wrong.

I was also arguing that gameplay can never be used reliably as evidence for really anything even just as extra supports

I would mostly disagree with that.  The gameplay is scripted just like a story.  Editors can't catch every detail, but it should be as consistent as possible.

Similar to a story, I would agree in that suspension of disbelief is required of the player.  Things can be representative.  That is a bit I would agree with.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[druidofwarp]

i'm assuming by gameplay we both mean battles and certain other mechanics, by gameplay i do not refer to talking to NPCs or interacting with items that give you codex entries or other information which are representative of the story clearly. But certain in-game mechanics clearly conflict with everything else like battles or injuries so happenings within them should not be used to support arguments of lore.